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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

It is ok friend no worries, when you had to buy our casspirs for Kashmir, given you had enormous resources of Tata says it all. Contacts or no contacts, did YOU work in this field for 15+years as an specialist R&D engineer on comms/EW hand in hand with Elta/Saab? Then please come and present your welcome thoughts vs tea room contact hear say that Indian people love to chatter.

For the French, one word sums it up nicely. Corruption. They are masters as buying. We know French for centuries in our continent and their tactics; they will sell water as cure for cancer and said it has been passed by Napoleon - pardon my pun.

We tested it. Whoever sells you whatever saying whatever, you field test the stuff and see the truth for yourself.

I agree with French sales tactics, but there's a reason why even the Brazilians and Swiss air forces wanted Rafale and got stuck with Gripen instead. They have a lot of stuff that's actually top notch, with no global equivalents. We saw them in Australia with the Barracuda win also.

In India, we like the French in the sense that once a contract is signed, they stick to it.

But it's okay, even Gripen is good. I have in fact argued that it's superior to the Rafale F3R with some French members when it comes to air to air because of the new GaN radar and Meteor combo they offered us. I am a fan of both aircraft and don't want to simply criticise either aircraft without being objective. The differences will be marginal anyway. But the problem is what's available in the lab sometimes never becomes operational, which is a big problem for small countries like Sweden and Israel.

We were close to seeing Saab's new GaN radar and EW suite on the LCA. Too bad they withdrew. The biggest problem will be if Saab decides to sell their aircraft to the PAF.

It is fine, every one to gloat on their own - It is funny - do you know your Navy's installations in the Andaman islands are using my hf designed antennas for the past 8 years.

Sure, we operate some of the newest and oldest stuff. We have a pretty big military so it takes decades to replace stuff.

this amount of gloating on vintage mig21 is not done by any sane person..one exception is if someone is high or drunk..see them all the time in ED

As I said, you don't know anything about our Mig-21s. It's even received a lot of praise from USAF and French pilots.
 
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feel free to argue bro we both here to learn Bro @Goku-kun
this is actually a question because i don't seem to understand your point..
what i have read and understand tells me that upper fuselage doesn't matter if they are even curve shape because radar em waves strike usually at the bottom of jet so that shouldn't be curved so the jet can be stealthy..
please explain and don't use too complex words..
 
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As for the Rafale's combat experience, they entered Libya without SEAD conducted.
That is not what I was referring to.

But if you want to go there...

a5dplaO.png


SEAD escorts are always optional. Whether they are used or not depends on intelligence and mission analyses. From the way you talk, it revealed two major things about you: ignorance and hubris.

You think that a mission that do not employ SEAD escorts must mean the Raffle do not need such AT ALL. I challenge you to find an air force in the world that will agree with you. Maybe the French could not afford dedicated SEAD escorts. Maybe they took missions that the calculated risks were acceptably low enough without SEAD escorts. What you are doing is demanding that we take your words for it unconditionally.

Their first mission included taking out tanks, not SAMs, but tanks. The US wasn't happy that the French had proceeded with strike missions without conducting SEAD/DEAD first.
Yeah...We value our pilots' lives.

Also with the dog analogy, you got the concept wrong. The Spectra isn't a camouflage system, it's not trying to simply blend into the background, your F-22 does that. The idea is not to make new dots, it's to make holes. So the Rafale's airframe design concentrates signals into a few strong spikes, particularly at the canard edges, and then cancels those spikes. So the two powerful "dots" on your radar become holes, and the Rafale goes stealth. Spectra is akin to a CIWS shooting down the bullets made of signals. That's a more apt analogy.
SPECTRA is a camouflage TECHNIQUE. Spin it any way you like.

The core of what SPECTRA does is -- sampling.

A radar signal is composed of multiple discreet pulses -- a pulse train.

A train can have distinct pulse characteristics, but the next train can have different characteristics. And so on...

Standard EW countermeasures requires sampling a percentage of that pulse train. Too small a sample and the countermeasure signal would not be effective at all. Against an opponent that do not perform pulse train alterations, SPECTRA will be effective. But against an opponent who does perform such alterations, the odds of SPECTRA creating an effective countermeasure drops. If the frequency and pulse characteristics changes rapid enough from pulse train to pulse train, there is no way for SPECTRA to keep up.

An adaptive sampling system must examine the radar signal from pulse to pulse to see if there are discreet packets of pulses with predictable characteristics.

Let us take a pulse train of 1,000 pulses for a simple example.

Of the first 10 pulses, there are differences between pulses. Of the next 10 pulses, the pulse characteristics are different. Of the next 10 pulses, more differences. But on the fourth set of 10 pulses, the patterns are the same as the first 10. Now I have a clue of the 5th set of 10. I can try to predict that the 6th set of 10 pulses will have the same characteristics of the 2nd set of 10. And so on all the way to 1000 pulses.

But if there are no predictable patterns inside that 1000 pulses, I am stuck with analyzing ALL 1000 pulses with no end in sight.

Now against an AESA equipped opponent like the F-22 or F-35 who can alter tens of millions of pulses, from freq to amplitude to variable pulse gaps, in a single burst, SPECTRA will be reduced in efficacy, if not outright defeated. What do you expect Dassault to say? Yes, we are defeated by the Americans? Of course they are going to say it is as good as shaping, even though they know they are misleading the public.

So it begs the question of why not every radar system perform complex signal alterations? Because that is also a burden on the transmitter. Not only does the transmitter have to create the changes, it must remember those characteristics to recognize the echo signals as its own. Not every country have the money and the technical sophistication to create such a radar system. The result is the disparity between countries, each saying that it has the best without revealing the weaknesses.

Against most air defense systems out there, SPECTRA is probably as effective as an F-22, but SPECTRA will not be so effective against the F-22 or F-35. Your mistake is assuming if SPECTRA is good against one type of opponent, it must be good against all.
 
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this is actually a question because i don't seem to understand your point..
what i have read and understand tells me that upper fuselage doesn't matter if they are even curve shape because radar em waves strike usually at the bottom of jet so that shouldn't be curved so the jet can be stealthy..
please explain and don't use too complex words..
look bro upper surfaces of the stealth jet should be curved and lower portion is flat because there are a weapon bays in it and EM waves strike all portion of the jet (just like a fountains spreading from its source), not just underside of the jet, Biggest RCS (RADAR CROSS SECTION) factors are engine fan blade and Vertical tail surfaces and external weapons, that why engine fan blade need some kind of shield/radar bloker, stealth jets always have a 2 V tails because 90 degree VERTICAL TAIL is a biggest source of radar reflections and weapons are stored internally for Reducing RCS, on of the biggest source of radar reflections @Goku-kun
 
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look bro upper surfaces of the stealth jet should be curved and lower portion is flat because there are a weapon bays in it and EM waves strike all portion of the jet (just like a fountains spreading from its source), not just underside of the jet, Biggest RCS (RADAR CROSS SECTION) factors are engine fan blade and Vertical tail surfaces and external weapons, that why engine fan blade need some kind of shield/radar bloker, stealth jets always have a 2 V tails because 90 degree VERTICAL TAIL is a biggest source of radar reflections and weapons are stored internally for Reducing RCS, on of the biggest source of radar reflections @Goku-kun
this is quite helpful..
but isn't that exactly what i said earlier that flat surfaces help reduce RCS but you said that curved surfaces or have I understand it wrong..
and thanks again i will not bother you everytime but your knowledge is very helpful..thanks..
 
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this is quite helpful..
but isn't that exactly what i said earlier that flat surfaces help reduce RCS but you said that curved surfaces or have I understand it wrong..
and thanks again i will not bother you everytime but your knowledge is very helpful..thanks..
you said in you above post upper surface remains flat, how its possible where the aerodynamics surfaces/shapes/drag goes @Goku-kun
 
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i don't see anything about upper flat surfaces there bro..
Sorry bro my mistake,you're telling others that curved/circular surfaces for a stealth fighters is bad for stealth, the opposite is absolutely true, CURVED/CIRCULAR SURFACES ARE ESSENTIALLY NEEDED FOR STEALTH FIGHTER FOR REDUCED RCS BECAUSE RADAR SIGNALS SLIP TO CURVED/CIRCULAR SURFACE AND FLEW AWAY IN RANDOM DIRECTIONS AWAY FROM RADAR RECIVIERS @Goku-kun
 
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That is not what I was referring to.

But if you want to go there...

a5dplaO.png


SEAD escorts are always optional. Whether they are used or not depends on intelligence and mission analyses. From the way you talk, it revealed two major things about you: ignorance and hubris.

You think that a mission that do not employ SEAD escorts must mean the Raffle do not need such AT ALL. I challenge you to find an air force in the world that will agree with you. Maybe the French could not afford dedicated SEAD escorts. Maybe they took missions that the calculated risks were acceptably low enough without SEAD escorts. What you are doing is demanding that we take your words for it unconditionally.

You are jumping to conclusions as usual. You should first understand what the mission was about.

4 Rafales flew straight into Benghazi, one of the best protected Libyan cities. They literally just flew in and blew up a bunch of tanks. No SEAD escorts, no SEAD weapons, nothing, while SAMs were still in operation in the area.

Yeah...We value our pilots' lives.

You don't get it. The French refused SEAD/DEAD support from the Growlers and USN.

There is a report detailed by NATO about Libya which said the French shouldn't have gone in without SEAD/DEAD support. Guess what the French said, "We don't need SEAD/DEAD."

In fact the Rafale doesn't even have SEAD/DEAD weapons. They depend on the US and British to provide SEAD/DEAD. But the French say they didn't get this capability on their own aircraft because they don't need this in order to operate the Rafale over the enemy. When pointed out that other French aircraft like M-2000 require SEAD, they said that by then the US and Brits would have started SEAD/DEAD anyway. So their funding priorities for Rafale were focused on completing missions without having to spend all that extra money on SEAD/DEAD.

The Rafale has been designed to be a first day aircraft and has been purposely designed to operate before SEAD/DEAD even begins, which they successfully demonstrated over Libya.

If they have to conduct SEAD, they use regular PGMs.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/feature/125860/rafale-in-combat:-“war-for-dummies”.html
Rafale pilots are also very complementary about their SPECTRA self-protection suite, which is of critical importance as France does not have any aircraft dedicated to the Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) missions. “SPECTRA allowed us to begin operations over Libya the very same day the political decision was taken, and to fly deep into Libyan territory without an escort,” says one pilot, adding that “the Americans also flew in, but only after they had fired 119 Tomahawks to take out Libyan air defenses.”

I would recommend reading the entire article.

SPECTRA is a camouflage TECHNIQUE. Spin it any way you like.

The core of what SPECTRA does is -- sampling.

Nope. Spectra doesn't require sampling to perform active cancellation.

Spectra does sampling for other functions, but not to go stealth. Active cancellation works from the very first pulse.

One of my first questions to the relevant people was all that you said, PRF, jitters, pulse trains etc. They said that none of it was directly relevant to achieve AC. Then I asked how could it cancel real time when sampling cannot be done in real time. The answer was: Spectra doesn't require sampling for AC.

Basically, you need a digital tranceiver system to get real time measurements. You can't do that with the obsolete (not out-dated, obsolete) transceiver system on the F-22 and F-35.

Against most air defense systems out there, SPECTRA is probably as effective as an F-22, but SPECTRA will not be so effective against the F-22 or F-35. Your mistake is assuming if SPECTRA is good against one type of opponent, it must be good against all.

You overestimate the F-22 and F-35. The stuff on the F-22 especially is ancient by high end standards. And the F-35 doesn't use digital tranceivers either.

Neither of them can compete with the Rafale without first moving to digital tranceivers. For the F-22, it's expected in 2024. The F-35... God knows, possibly 2035.

For example, the Rafale's radar has 1000+ T/R modules, a digital radar can create 2000+ individual beams with individual characteristics, it can even go up to 5000 beams, even 10000 beams, all depends on how much power you want the beams to have, which makes it far, far superior to the F-22's radar, which cannot make more beams than the number of T/R modules on its radar.

The F-22 and F-35 are completely outclassed since the antenna type is obsolete. The difference is as big as a legacy antenna vs the AESA on the F-22. In fact, bigger.
 
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We need a separate thread on education of mr random radio guy..this is thunder thread not flying coffins or flying cows thread
 
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