JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[KapitaanAli]

Let's be generous and credit 50km to modern BVR's certain kill range.
However in any war scenario, more fighters would be shot down by ground based systems.
Indian airforce would mostly be flying at higher altitudes, avoiding dog fights.
Pakistan ariforce on the contrary would dominate low altitude air space and probably would deny SU-30 safe landing.

IAF (MKI) will be flying at high altitude, combined with our ground systems, denying any low altitude activity from PAF at the border.

PAF will be forced to fly away from the border to gain altitude and come back at a respectable altitude, draining its ability (fuel) for dogfights (likely against MiG29 and Tejas).

In real life, PAF is at an utter disadvantage and the gap will keep widening as Indian ground systems are taking a giant leap.

 

[BATMAN]

IAF (MKI) will be flying at high altitude, combined with our ground systems, denying any low altitude activity from PAF at the border.

PAF will be forced to fly away from the border to gain altitude and come back at a respectable altitude, draining its ability (fuel) for dogfights (likely against MiG29 and Tejas).

In real life, PAF is at an utter disadvantage and the gap will keep widening as Indian ground systems are taking a giant leap.

Exactly.... i bet PAF knows the risks of flying low altitude.

 

[Dazzler]

The RCS of the JF-17 is not impressive.

And no, you are overestimating the JF-17 by a massive margin. And this is coming from the IAF where the air chief said even the J-20 does not create such an asymmetry. So forget about the JF-17 being a threat to the IAF.

First, there is no inferior or superior MKI in IAF. All boast similar configuration until the so called upgrade comes into play which is on paper as of now. Your argument of Pune having more advanced MKIs is simply hilarious and let's not make things up for JAgs, they are not even worth mentioning. Seems like you will throw in anything that could sale your boat in an argument.

MKI has an RCS of 20msq, which is its biggest enemy. in time of war, the mki will be detected at extended ranges by APG-69V9, KLJ-7V2 and even Grifo M3 of Rose mirages. Why? All these radars have low, medium and high repetition frequencies that can be switch if and when needed.

Thats one fact that you need to get into your mind. instead of jilting into rag tag arguments, try to use reason this time.

 

[araz]

View attachment 482167

Is this what I think it is. So we have a chin mounted pod on the JFT CONFIRMED. Great post.
A

First, there is no inferior or superior MKI in IAF. All boast similar configuration until the so called upgrade comes into play which is on paper as of now. Your argument of Pune having more advanced MKIs is simply hilarious and let's not make things up for JAgs, they are not even worth mentioning. Seems like you will throw in anything that could sale your boat in an argument.

MKI has an RCS of 20msq, which is its biggest enemy. in time of war, the mki will be detected at extended ranges by APG-69V9, KLJ-7V2 and even Grifo M3 of Rose mirages. Why? All these radars have low, medium and high repetition frequencies that can be switch if and when needed.

Thats one fact that you need to get into your mind. instead of jilting into rag tag arguments, try to use reason this time.

Why even bother! Just put that idiot on your ignore list and move on. He is not worth wasting your breath on.
A

 

[HRK]

Is this what I think it is. So we have a chin mounted pod on the JFT CONFIRMED. Great post.
A

which pod ... ??? just fuel tanks

 

[My-Analogous]

Is that so?

Do you know that if the J-20 was actually good, then the IAF would have rung alarm bells and cornered a bigger share of the defence budget and asked for the induction of the F-35 and PAK FA? We are a democracy after all, only fear mongering increases budgets, like it did for our SAM projects, when the armed forces said 97% of their inventory is obsolete. That's when they scored the Akash, Barak-8 and S-400 contracts.

WOW great mechanism of great country and they wake up only after 97% become junk. All hail to SP2012
So world should learn from mighty Indian and replaced things after 97% standard set by SP2012

 

[araz]

which pod ... ??? just fuel tanks

Sorry got a bit excited. You are right
A

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

 

[denel]

Rafale:
Two sources have already been presented many times.

One is the VP of Dassault who said the frontal RCS of the Rafale is 0.0001m2 class (sparrow).

Another is a person who has worked on French surveillance aircraft, nukes and developed weapons that carry nukes (ASMP) etc. So he has the necessary expertise to comment on this subject.

Both have said the Rafales are VLO.

The second person has explained that the 0.0001m2 RCS increases to 0.001m2 to 0.01m2 depending on the weapons carried. And this is for the currently operational F3R version. The new F4 that will become operational by 2024 will better it. Plus, that this is not just restricted to X band, but all relevant bands, if you are willing to pay for the integration of the antennas, which the IAF has agreed to. So we are talking about VLO from "low band", all the way to 40GHz. It's currently operational from 0.5GHz to 18GHz.

And even an IAF Air Marshal has pointed out that the Rafales are stealth jets.

So the Rafales have all the advantages of 4th gen aircraft, high endurance, large payload etc, and capable of achieving supercruise, 11G performance, while also being VLO and possess sensor fusion to boot.

As for the F-22 and F-35: Neither jet has been built with EA in mind. The F-35's radar is capable of EA in the X band and pretty soon the F-22 will be able to do the same. But that's about it. The second person has also said that the kind of EA that the F-35 does, they could do it back in the 90s (with AESA antennas) and is no longer necessary (in fact pointless) and that EA has advanced beyond high power brute force attacks.

French Carbonne demonstrator.

USAF officials have openly said that the upcoming jets will be built with EA in mind.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...at-comes-after-the-f-22-raptor-f-18081?page=2
Stealth will almost certainly play a role in a future PCA—should the Air Force analysis show that a requirement for such an aircraft exists. But the service is also likely to heavily invest in electronic warfare capabilities for the next-generation air superiority fighter. The Air Force sees electronic attack as one of many potential requirements for survival in the 2030 plus timeframe, Coglitore said. The PCA will likely use a combination of stealth, electronic attack and other factors such as speed to survive. “There is a balance out there,” Coglitore said. “There are many ways to achieve survivability.”



Even Saab is way behind the French.

The Gripen's non-existent EW technology on a non-existent aircraft scored behind operational French technologies and aircraft during Swiss evaluations.

A non-existent Gripen E should be able to match the Rafale F3R in a few years.

The problem for the Swedes is they don't have nearly as much money as the French. The Spectra's software upgrade budget itself is as much as the cost of the entire Gripen E program.



So you're saying a USAF General has openly lied to the US Congress? 20 year jail sentence right there.

Friend, you need to be in the weeds to know who is ahead vs reading what is in public domain. Thre are 2 teams - Elta (my former mates are there) and Saab/+SA division. The rest dont matter much - good luck with the french & US; dont say i did not warn you .

 

[khanasifm]

Is this what I think it is. So we have a chin mounted pod on the JFT CONFIRMED. Great post.
A


Why even bother! Just put that idipt on your ignore list and move on. He is not worth wasting your breath 9n.
A

Looks like it but a clear pic version available ??

 

[randomradio]

Utter bullshit. And I say that kindly.

For all the yrs I have been on this forum, NEVER have I insisted that anyone take my words or the words of Lockheed Martin at face value.

Why is the sphere the IDEAL radar calibration shape?

http://www.centurymetalspinning.com/radar-calibration-spheres/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Calibration_Sphere_1

Because the sphere is the simplest shape. No matter its orientation to the radar, it will always produce the same RCS value. So find the RCS values of different sizes of the sphere can be done by one radar or even simulations and math. As we get to more complex shapes like the cube or conic, RCS values begins to change as orientations changes. Simulations and math gets more complex and time consuming. That is why the sphere is used to calibrate radars.

An aircraft is a complex body. While the overall shape is symmetrical, the features are irregular. We can have a vent on one side of the aircraft but not on the other side. There is a cockpit bulge on forward fuselage but not aft. Intake openings are not the same shapes and dimensions as exhaust openings. And so on...

So in order to get an accurate RCS value of any aircraft, the measurement radar must be allowed to look at the aircraft at different perspectives. It is not enough to have the standard four: front/rear/left/right.

The radar that is moved at one degree increment will have a more accurate measurement than the radar that is moved at ten degrees increments. Of course, moving in one degree increments will be more time consuming.

That is why the US have something like the 'Benefield Anechoic Chamber'...

http://www.edwards.af.mil/News/Arti...ancer-returns-to-benefield-anechoic-facility/

Not only does BAF performs RCS measurement, which is top secret, BAF also tests EM transmission efficiency of various comm antennas, telling us where to place the antenna and how large to make it.

If the US does not release the RCS value of the F-22, what make you think there is credible public information regarding the RCS measurement of the Rafale or the PRAT-FALL?

There are none.

It is not enough to simply tell us a value like '.0001' meters squared. Tell us HOW you got that value. Or put your fighter in combat.

At Benefield, the aircraft rests on a turntable that is large enough to handle the B-1. But does that turntable move at 1 deg increment or 10? Or maybe as fine grained as .001 deg increment? Or maybe that level of precision is unnecessary? Do you think we are going to tell you? We tell you that we have an EM anechoic hangar to measure the RCS values of A, B, and C aircrafts, but we do not tell you the results.

So you can take whatever Dassault says all you want, it is ultimately meaningless.

Every single time you add a payload on the Rafale, the aircraft undergoes rigorous RCS testing. It costs hundreds of millions of dollars just to integrate a missile on the Rafale, since Spectra has to be calibrated to the new payload. The same thing on an American or Russian aircraft would cost many times less. One of the biggest reasons why the Rafale has such few weapons integrated.

And they have all the facilities you speak of.

nEURON

Solange

India also has such facilities.

https://www.facebook.com/

Even 1:1 testing facilities.

All major countries have 1:1 RCS testing facilities.

The Russians also have anechoic chambers that can test the Tu-160 at 1:1. The Su-27 was tested in such a facility back in 1980.

This is Russian. One of their oldest facilities.

You are taking people for granted, while completely forgetting their actual national positions.

 

[HRK]

Is it still JF-17 thread ... ??

@waz @The Eagle

 

[randomradio]

First, there is no inferior or superior MKI in IAF. All boast similar configuration until the so called upgrade comes into play which is on paper as of now.

Nope. The MKI undergoes upgrades every few years. Only last year, 1 squadron received over 300 new upgrades.

A lot of upgrades, like doubling Bars range, are retrofit upgrades.

MKI recently received a major EW upgrade also. And these upgrades start off with the Pune squadrons first.

We have setup two lines that will allow overhaul and upgrades of 30 jets a year.

Your argument of Pune having more advanced MKIs is simply hilarious and let's not make things up for JAgs, they are not even worth mentioning. Seems like you will throw in anything that could sale your boat in an argument.

The Pune based Jags have radars, the other Jags don't.

MKI has an RCS of 20msq, which is its biggest enemy. in time of war, the mki will be detected at extended ranges by APG-69V9, KLJ-7V2 and even Grifo M3 of Rose mirages. Why? All these radars have low, medium and high repetition frequencies that can be switch if and when needed.

Even with such an RCS, the F-15C continued to hold a BVR advantage over the F-16C.

And you have no clue about the MKI since you don't even know they undergo individual upgrades.

Thats one fact that you need to get into your mind. instead of jilting into rag tag arguments, try to use reason this time.

Now re-read this post.

Why even bother! Just put that idiot on your ignore list and move on. He is not worth wasting your breath on.
A

People typically run away when confronted with facts. You are no different.

Friend, you need to be in the weeds to know who is ahead vs reading what is in public domain. Thre are 2 teams - Elta (my former mates are there) and Saab/+SA division. The rest dont matter much - good luck with the french & US; dont say i did not warn you .

You think we have no idea what the Swedes are doing, especially after MMRCA? You do realise Gripen competed with the Rafale in India and did not even get shortlisted right?

I know and understand that the Swedes have some of the best technologies, but my contacts have been some of the top people within the European industry, including a serving Brigadier General in the French Air Force. I pointed out pretty much the same thing you did. They told me they are ahead, that's good enough to me.

The Swedes offered us GaN technology that was inferior to what we are making in India, so that was funny.

 

[khanasifm]

Looks like it but a clear pic version available ??

Or just the drop tank pylon under the wing looking like a pod from this angle

 

[gambit]

Every single time you add a payload on the Rafale, the aircraft undergoes rigorous RCS testing. It costs hundreds of millions of dollars just to integrate a missile on the Rafale, since Spectra has to be calibrated to the new payload. The same thing on an American or Russian aircraft would cost many times less. One of the biggest reasons why the Rafale has such few weapons integrated.

The point of my post that you missed in your misguided zeal to make the Raffle greater than what it actually is, is that unless the measurement data are INDEPENDENTLY done, there is little to no credibility to any claim made by anyone, and that includes US.

I do not care if France has all the facilities comparable to US. Unless Lockheed or Dassault make public their testing methodologies and criteria, their claims should not be taken at face values.

That said...

The reason why US claims are relevant is because US 'stealth' platforms actually have combat experience. No one else does. SPECTRA is essentially unknown. Yes, we can be sure that Dassault performed many testing regimes, but I speak from experience as a radar field test designer of 'autonomous low altitude unmanned aerial vehicles', aka 'drones', that unless I see Dassault's testing regimes, I cannot in good professional conscience accepts everything Dassault says. Same goes for Lockheed or Northrop. Once in my civilian life, I designed field tests to detect drones and for drones to evade radars. I worked both sides of the EW fence.

But from the same professional experience, I absolutely understand the need for secrecy. If you know the testing regimes, you can make educated guesses all the way down to how the device was designed and built, whether that device is a computer chip or a jet fighter. That is why Lockheed, Northrop, and Dassault will say no more outside of PR releases. I do not need to see the math or the electronics. Show me the testing regimes and I will find the appropriate specialists to extrapolate further.

For example...

Now that we know that an EM anechoic chamber was used to design the F-22 or test the SPECTRA suite, we can extrapolate that every structure on the F-22 will be precisely measured as to its EM output. I can make full scale models of the F-22 with a variety of materials and test those models with my own facility. So just from the single knowledge that an EM anechoic chamber was used, already I learned much about the F-22 and its potential RCS.

SPECTRA is at best a band-aid solution to an unsatisfied need to create a peer to the US 'stealth' platforms. If there is a transmission, as SPECTRA is an active method, it WILL be ID-ed out.

It is actually very difficult to make out the dog's OUTLINES. You have to focus at every line and curve.

What SPECTRA attempts to do is like the dog produces real time on the fly each dot, hoping that the observers will not notice the changes happening. Or like the octopus as it moves from one background to the next.

News for you: Ain't.

We WILL notice and by 'we', I mean the F-22 and F-35.