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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

Random radio guy stopped making sense when he claimed that sampling is not needed for Active cancellation.
SPECTRA does sample. But not in-flight and under EM threat. The sampling was done in what is called the 'offline' testing mode.

If you are in combat, you are online. Whatever happens that could affect an undesirable outcome, you have to adjust on the fly. In being 'stealthy', that undesirable outcome is you being detected AND tracked.

The three main modes of radar detection:

- Detection
- Tracking
- Targeting

Even civilian systems operates that way. It sounds 'military' but it is actually not. Air traffic controls usually do not focus or 'target' a specific flight except for emergencies.

Mr. Random gave the clue on how SPECTRA works back on page 344 post 5156 with this explanation...

"Every single time you add a payload on the Rafale, the aircraft undergoes rigorous RCS testing."

That does not mean the Raffle entered measurement before every sortie. That would be prohibitively expensive to operate the jet. What he meant -- as in whoever told him -- was the TYPE or external load that would be on the Raffle.

For example...

If the Raffle was RCS measured for a 500 lbs (230 kg) external fuel tank, that is all the Raffle will be allowed to fly in combat. SPECTRA performed the necessary signal sampling OFFLINE, meaning in that EM anechoic chamber, a tightly controlled environment, and SPECTRA generate a countermeasure signal based upon that tightly controlled testing environment. That RCS value and its associated countermeasure signal is stored.

If aerodynamically a 600 lbs (275 kg) is available and passed all testings, the Raffle will still not be allowed to fly with the new fuel tank because the Raffle's baseline RCS plus the larger fuel tank is not in SPECTRA's countermeasure library. Any threat radar would immediately detect and track the jet with the new and larger fuel tank.

If a current bomb is modified with larger stabilizer fins, this modified bomb would not be allowed on the Raffle because now the larger fins would create new EM radiation patterns. The jet with the modified bomb would have to be measured, SPECTRA would generate a countermeasure signal, and the new baseline RCS plus modified bomb pair would be stored in SPECTRA's library.

Everything above is strictly dependent upon KNOWN signals fed to SPECTRA. In flight -- the online mode -- if SPECTRA detects a threat signal that is in its threat library, SPECTRA then search for the associated RCS value for that threat signal, then calls up the matching countermeasure signal.

For a frame of reference, see Perl hash table or Python dictionary. :enjoy:

So SPECTRA as a countermeasure capability is no different than other systems in that it does uses signal sampling, just in a different time and place. The weakness and flaw is when SPECTRA encounters a threat signal NOT in its threat library or not in that hash/dictionary table.

Mr. Randsom's lack of experience in the radar field is why he could not deduce how SPECTRA works. SPECTRA cannot violate the laws of nature or the laws of common sense, in this case it is statistical sampling. Common sense tells you that you must know even a slight bit of whatever it is you are facing before you can formulate a response mechanism. So all Mr. Random can say is "SPECTRA does not use sampling", which is nonsensical. SPECTRA does use sampling, just at a different time in that chain of response formula.

@gambit wouldn't the angle of the inbound radar signal also have an impact on Spectra's performance? Unless it has antennas mounted all over the plane...
The aircraft is generally above most seeking radar, so structurally, a bottom mounted large antenna will do the job %99.999 of the time. The Raffle probably does have smaller antennas at other locations on the jet. Am just not going to spend a lot of time on it.

How capable new airborne AESA radars of Russia and China may perform against SPECTRA?
Right now, AESA is still fairly new in deployment. In theory, an AESA system WILL defeat the active cancellation method used by SPECTRA, but in practice, it is COMPLETELY dependent on the software running the AESA system. If the threat signals generated by the AESA system are within certain parameters of known threat signals that SPECTRA knows, then SPECTRA wins.
 
The greatest upgrade for the JF-17 is to give it an AESA system, and the necessary software support for it, of course. Not more bombs or greater range. I have saying this for yrs on this forum to the Pakistani members here who supports this jet. I have seen first hand what an AESA system can do and right now there is nothing better. Not making this for the JF-17 will be the worst mistake the PAF can make for the viability of the jet.
 
The greatest upgrade for the JF-17 is to give it an AESA system, and the necessary software support for it, of course. Not more bombs or greater range. I have saying this for yrs on this forum to the Pakistani members here who supports this jet. I have seen first hand what an AESA system can do and right now there is nothing better. Not making this for the JF-17 will be the worst mistake the PAF can make for the viability of the jet.
AESA is confirmed for the third block , I hope the software's good enough though
 
ok..
flat surfaces reducs RCS not curved bro..
i say both surfaces reduces RCS, flat surfaces for as a whole plan-form (design), curved for sharp edges like air intakes, Radomes (tip of the nose cone), 2 V tails trailing edges (rear edges) and top of the tail fins etc etc @Goku-kun :angel:
 
And I recommend you update your knowledge of Thunder. Do you think our Block 1s have not received any updates in a decade? In any case, the Thunder will be under EM silence, relying on AEWACS. First nail into flying coffin.

The flying coffin is well known for its limited endurance. The burst technique was used by the Egyptians to no avail. Second nail.

As for HMD, you are basically showing your ignorance of dog fighting if you think 'no HMD, no life'. Why do you think the flying coffin will be able to get anywhere within 270 degree of Thunder's tail? And why do you think your pilots will be able to move their heads under a 7G stress? Third nail.

But the final nail will only be hammered when u send your pilots in preparation for their funeral.

Your Block 1 Thunders are yet to get full scope of upgrades on Block 2. By the time they get those, the Mig-21s will be headed out.

The second problem is really the Israeli SPJ vs the Chinese SPJ. Good luck there.

And yes, HMDS plays a huge part. And the Bison isn't going to get into dog fights, empty missile load and then use its kinetic advantage to run. Good luck with your PL-5s and 8s there. Hell, the JF-17s will probably be taken out by the accompanying Jaugars with their ASRAAMs if you get close.

Your AWACS are not gonna fly wartime. They will get engaged the minute they fly. They will likely get taken out while they are taxiing towards the runway before that.
 
Your Block 1 Thunders are yet to get full scope of upgrades on Block 2. By the time they get those, the Mig-21s will be headed out.

The second problem is really the Israeli SPJ vs the Chinese SPJ. Good luck there.

And yes, HMDS plays a huge part. And the Bison isn't going to get into dog fights, empty missile load and then use its kinetic advantage to run. Good luck with your PL-5s and 8s there. Hell, the JF-17s will probably be taken out by the accompanying Jaugars with their ASRAAMs if you get close.

Your AWACS are not gonna fly wartime. They will get engaged the minute they fly. They will likely get taken out while they are taxiing towards the runway before that.
@waz @The Eagle @Horus stop this jester you guys should ban or at least warn @randomradio to not derail this thread and read the history of JF-17 :blah::blah::blah:
 
Your Block 1 Thunders are yet to get full scope of upgrades on Block 2. By the time they get those, the Mig-21s will be headed out.

The second problem is really the Israeli SPJ vs the Chinese SPJ. Good luck there.

And yes, HMDS plays a huge part. And the Bison isn't going to get into dog fights, empty missile load and then use its kinetic advantage to run. Good luck with your PL-5s and 8s there. Hell, the JF-17s will probably be taken out by the accompanying Jaugars with their ASRAAMs if you get close.

Your AWACS are not gonna fly wartime. They will get engaged the minute they fly. They will likely get taken out while they are taxiing towards the runway before that.
Wtf..you are on LSD not weed
I think our super mushak are good enough for your coffin..I doubt they will be able to cross boarder before falling down..with pilots ratio of 0.8 I doubt you will even find enough pilots
 
No, it is YOU who still do not understand.

You talk as if American pilots needs SEAD escorts in every mission. We do not. When we fight, at least for the Air Force side, we want to take out as many types of enemy forces as possible. If there is air defense and if we can fly SEAD escorts, we will fly with the entire strike package and attack everything. If the target is valuable enough to warrant mass destruction, we will fly with every possible form of attack at our disposal.

So what? That could simply mean intelligence was detailed enough that the Raffles can sneak by. We done that many times in the past.

Again, you are stuck with general replies, not the particular scenario I am referring to.

No, they didn't "sneak" into Libya. You can't simply fly into Libya (targets of interest at least) without SEAD/DEAD first.

You still don't get it. The French completely refused Growler back up while they actually operated right above Libyan SAMs.

LYBSAMNETRINGS.jpg


The Rafales moved into an area controlled by the red circle, third site from the right in order to engage the battle tanks. That's Benghazi.

There was a major offensive going on there, and the Libyan troops were protected by multiple batteries of SAMs.

You are denying history here.

So from this perspective, SPECTRA does not need to sample any incoming signal. But if it encounters a threat signal whose characteristics does not exist, what then?

You got the first part right. This much I guessed too, in my discussion with them.

It was the second part which confused not just me, but many others. There was a two part answer to that:

1. Spectra is capable of real time measurements. They can add this new signal to the threat library automatically.

2. If things get too hot, they will simply withdraw and try again in the same sortie, this time with the new signal in the database.

This is where the game's totally changed. Spectra is able to respond almost immediately even to unknown signals because digital antennas allow that capability. You can make exact copies of the signal with zero error.

There is also a third part, which they said is classified. Particularly questions about the real time capability. They said Spectra can also engage unknown signals in real time, without having to place the signal in a threat database.

What also makes them believable is because they are not anonymous. We know their real identities. So high ranking officials with known identities making such claims. That's gotta mean something. Plus both individuals have the highest security clearances in the country.

But not against the F-22 and F-35, buddy. AESA systems can generate signal characteristics that are absolutely unknown to Dassault just on the freq agility factor, let alone much more complex factors like pulse variables.

Yep, asked this too. They simply answered with "processing power". It doesn't matter how agile a radar is as long as Spectra is able to process all the data faster than the radar can. The goes back to Spectra's ability to perform real time measurements and generate responses immediately.

The only requirement for Spectra is to have faster processing capability than the enemy does.

Dude, I've asked everything you have pointed out here.

It may sound all fictional to you because you don't even know what a digital antenna is capable of. It's like trying to explain multibeam capability to a person who doesn't know what even a PESA system is. Hell, a single digital transceiver can not only just respond to frequency agility in one beam, but also simultaneously transmit the same beam with a different polarity, and also simultaneously transmit another beam with a completely different frequency, phase, polarity and amplitude, while at the same time it is receiving multiple signals without turning off its transmitter. And "simultaneous" means literally at the same time. This might seem completely fictional to you as a cellphone is fictional to Shakespeare, but I can assure you it's real.

You're gonna have to go through multiple paywalled sources first.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7399690/
A digital-array radar is based on a phased array antenna in which transmitted waveforms are generated digitally at each element and the received energy is also digitized at each array element. This allows transmit and receive beams of arbitrary weighting and shape to be formed in the digital domain in any direction. In addition, it readily allows forming multiple simultaneous receive beams, their number and instantaneous bandwidth, and dynamic range being limited only by the data converters and the digital hardware capacity and power consumption.

Welcome to Hogwarts. But I bet you're gonna say the authors are either clueless or lying.

So on first day Rafael was killing Tanks, what a great use of Aircraft ... By the way as per my knowledge of air warfare, first day is dedicated to SAMs, air ports and command centers ... Tanks are taken care at the time of military engagements ...

The Rafales simply ignored the SAMs since they are not a threat to a "stealth aircraft" at that point in time.

The Rafales moved in to provide CAS for rebel troops who were in danger of losing their positions.

Interesting thoughts about Spectra and active cancellation. Seems to be a step-up from DRFM, but seems to be a transient solution as the moment AESA radars are introduced into the mix, their effectiveness goes downhill.

Funny thing, Spectra is in fact advertised to be highly effective against AESAs.

Random radio guy stopped making sense when he claimed that sampling is not needed for Active cancellation. That one statement shows how ignorant he is! Even if frequency changes as a factor is overlooked, sampling will be required to ascertain the signal intensity. only then can spectra hope to send out a signal for cancellation.

@gambit wouldn't the angle of the inbound radar signal also have an impact on Spectra's performance? Unless it has antennas mounted all over the plane...

Even though Gambit readily admits sampling is not necessary (at least within the constraints he mentioned). You guys are funny.
 
For example, the Rafale's radar has 1000+ T/R modules, a digital radar can create 2000+ individual beams with individual characteristics, it can even go up to 5000 beams, even 10000 beams, all depends on how much power you want the beams to have, which makes it far, far superior to the F-22's radar, which cannot make more beams than the number of T/R modules on its radar.
This is sheer 'Indian physics'. And it shows you know nothing about what you are blabbering on.

An ESA radar array create a beam by way of the 'wave superposition' principle. In other words, the main beam is created by the controlled interference of multiple beams from multiple T/R modules.

Like this...

k8oAPem.jpg


In basic radar antenna principles, there is an inverse relationship between beamwidth and array size.

http://meteorologytraining.tpub.com/14271/css/14271_60.htm
Beamwidth varies directly with wavelength and inversely with antenna size. Radarsystems that produce relatively small beam widths generally provide greater target resolution.
This applies to ESA systems as well. Each set of T/R modules, 5 or 10 or 100, make up an array. The more T/R modules in a set, the narrower the beam.

In a main array of 1000 T/R modules, multiple beams are created from multiple SUB-ARRAYS. The process is called 'sub-array partitioning'.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7181641/
Subarray partition is indispensable in large phased array radar system for reducing the manufacturing cost as well as realizing the system potentiality. The optimization of subarray partition for large planar phased array radar according to weighted K-means clustering method is mainly investigated in this paper.
That means there is no way you can have more beams than available T/R modules. The Raffle's AESA array have 1000+ T/R modules but can create 5000 beams is sheer defiance of the laws of nature.

You do not know what you are talking about.
 
Again, you are stuck with general replies, not the particular scenario I am referring to.

No, they didn't "sneak" into Libya. You can't simply fly into Libya (targets of interest at least) without SEAD/DEAD first.

You still don't get it. The French completely refused Growler back up while they actually operated right above Libyan SAMs.

LYBSAMNETRINGS.jpg


The Rafales moved into an area controlled by the red circle, third site from the right in order to engage the battle tanks. That's Benghazi.

There was a major offensive going on there, and the Libyan troops were protected by multiple batteries of SAMs.

You are denying history here.



You got the first part right. This much I guessed too, in my discussion with them.

It was the second part which confused not just me, but many others. There was a two part answer to that:

1. Spectra is capable of real time measurements. They can add this new signal to the threat library automatically.

2. If things get too hot, they will simply withdraw and try again in the same sortie, this time with the new signal in the database.

This is where the game's totally changed. Spectra is able to respond almost immediately even to unknown signals because digital antennas allow that capability. You can make exact copies of the signal with zero error.

There is also a third part, which they said is classified. Particularly questions about the real time capability. They said Spectra can also engage unknown signals in real time, without having to place the signal in a threat database.

What also makes them believable is because they are not anonymous. We know their real identities. So high ranking officials with known identities making such claims. That's gotta mean something. Plus both individuals have the highest security clearances in the country.



Yep, asked this too. They simply answered with "processing power". It doesn't matter how agile a radar is as long as Spectra is able to process all the data faster than the radar can. The goes back to Spectra's ability to perform real time measurements and generate responses immediately.

The only requirement for Spectra is to have faster processing capability than the enemy does.

Dude, I've asked everything you have pointed out here.

It may sound all fictional to you because you don't even know what a digital antenna is capable of. It's like trying to explain multibeam capability to a person who doesn't know what even a PESA system is. Hell, a single digital transceiver can not only just respond to frequency agility in one beam, but also simultaneously transmit the same beam with a different polarity, and also simultaneously transmit another beam with a completely different frequency, phase, polarity and amplitude, while at the same time it is receiving multiple signals without turning off its transmitter. And "simultaneous" means literally at the same time. This might seem completely fictional to you as a cellphone is fictional to Shakespeare, but I can assure you it's real.

You're gonna have to go through multiple paywalled sources first.
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7399690/
A digital-array radar is based on a phased array antenna in which transmitted waveforms are generated digitally at each element and the received energy is also digitized at each array element. This allows transmit and receive beams of arbitrary weighting and shape to be formed in the digital domain in any direction. In addition, it readily allows forming multiple simultaneous receive beams, their number and instantaneous bandwidth, and dynamic range being limited only by the data converters and the digital hardware capacity and power consumption.

Welcome to Hogwarts. But I bet you're gonna say the authors are either clueless or lying.



The Rafales simply ignored the SAMs since they are not a threat to a "stealth aircraft" at that point in time.

The Rafales moved in to provide CAS for rebel troops who were in danger of losing their positions.



Funny thing, Spectra is in fact advertised to be highly effective against AESAs.



Even though Gambit readily admits sampling is not necessary (at least within the constraints he mentioned). You guys are funny.
CAS in the presence of SAM ... Lolz ... Wakeup boy ... You are rewriting all war stratgies ...

You are saying that french put on risk a 200 million dollar machine for some random tanks ... I wonder why drones were created .....

You and your stupid claims ...
 
You got the first part right. This much I guessed too, in my discussion with them.
You -- by yourself -- have surpassed ALL of the Chinese members in this forum as the greatest bullshitter. You think that by using the word 'digital' as much as possible it make you sound smart?

1000 T/R modules can create 5000 beams? Yeah...Indeed it is 'Indian physics'. You are busted. Leave the thread.
 
This is sheer 'Indian physics'. And it shows you know nothing about what you are blabbering on.

An ESA radar array create a beam by way of the 'wave superposition' principle. In other words, the main beam is created by the controlled interference of multiple beams from multiple T/R modules.

Like this...

k8oAPem.jpg


In basic radar antenna principles, there is an inverse relationship between beamwidth and array size.

http://meteorologytraining.tpub.com/14271/css/14271_60.htm

This applies to ESA systems as well. Each set of T/R modules, 5 or 10 or 100, make up an array. The more T/R modules in a set, the narrower the beam.

In a main array of 1000 T/R modules, multiple beams are created from multiple SUB-ARRAYS. The process is called 'sub-array partitioning'.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7181641/

That means there is no way you can have more beams than available T/R modules. The Raffle's AESA array have 1000+ T/R modules but can create 5000 beams is sheer defiance of the laws of nature.

You do not know what you are talking about.

You -- by yourself -- have surpassed ALL of the Chinese members in this forum as the greatest bullshitter. You think that by using the word 'digital' as much as possible it make you sound smart?

1000 T/R modules can create 5000 beams? Yeah...Indeed it is 'Indian physics'. You are busted. Leave the thread.

Haha, this proves you were criticising a system that you had no idea existed. You don't even know what it does at the element level.

Since you obviously don't believe me, then how about Lockheed Martin saying the same thing?

The third hyphen.
2cdzyvk.png


Point 2 is interesting.
mmv09s.png


DBF works at the element level. Now explain this away, Sherlock.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree. I will continue believing the Spectra is capable of a lot more than you think, you can believe otherwise. In about 10 years, this will become common knowledge anyway.
 
Haha, this proves you were criticising a system that you had no idea existed. You don't even know what it does at the element level.

Since you obviously don't believe me, then how about Lockheed Martin saying the same thing?
That illustration about how digital beamforming work? I posted it on this forum yrs ago. Long before you came on. I explained the basic principles of ESA sub-array partitioning and provided public sources to back up my arguments long before you exposed yourself the ignoramus you are today.

There is NOTHING you posted that support the claim that there can be more beams than available T/R modules. If there is 1000 T/R modules, at best there can be 1000 beams and each one will be so shitty in resolution that they are worthless. If there is 1000 T/R modules, there cannot be 5000 beams. That is 'Indian physics'. :lol:
 
CAS in the presence of SAM ... Lolz ...

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...5860/rafale-in-combat:-“war-for-dummies”.html
Rafale pilots are also very complementary about their SPECTRA self-protection suite, which is of critical importance as France does not have any aircraft dedicated to the Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) missions. “SPECTRA allowed us to begin operations over Libya the very same day the political decision was taken, and to fly deep into Libyan territory without an escort,” says one pilot, adding that “the Americans also flew in, but only after they had fired 119 Tomahawks to take out Libyan air defenses.”

http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/03/29/europeans-putting-on-a-fighter-plane-demo-in-libya/
Rafale jets fired the symbolic first shot against Gaddafi at 17.45 Libyan time on 19 March, destroying four tanks on the outskirts of Benghazi. The strike took place three hours before the US and UK began bombarding Gaddafi anti-aircraft bases, with the French ministry of defence swiftly posting a set of Rafale pictures on its website.

Not just that.

MACE XIII - Slovakia. NATO vs S-300 exercise in 2012.
=================
Slovakia’s sole S-300PMU (SA-10 ‘Grumble’) surface-to-air missile system was the main actor during the ‘Trial MACE XIII” electronic warfare exercise held in Slovakia from 16-27 April. The S-300PMU and its attendant ‘Flap Lid’ and ‘Clam Shell’ radars were sited at Nitra, with support provided by a Slovakian Air Force L-39ZAM from the 2nd Squadron at Sliac that flew as a target for the SAM crews. The exercise allowed NATO air arms to practise tactics to deal with the so-called ‘double digit’ air defence threat, while ground and flying personnel alike were exposed to operations under electronic jamming conditions.

Sliac air base hosted the tactical air contingent, which consisted of French Air Force Mirage 2000Ds and Rafale Bs, Royal Danish Air Force F-16AMs, a NATO E-3A and a French Air Force E-3F, a Royal Norwegian Air Force Falcon 20, resident Slovakian Air Force MiG-29AS/UBS, and

Slovakian L-39ZAMTurkish Air Force F-4E-2020s from 111 Filo. Also involved was the rarely seen Learjet 35A D-CARL of German firm GFD, fitted with two Cassidian EW pods, again operating from Sliac.

Aircraft involved in ‘Trial MACE XIII’ included 111 Filo ‘Panthers’ F-4E-2020 from Eskisehir equipped with an Elta EL/L-8222 electronic countermeasures pod. Special markings to commemorate 50,000 Phantom flying hours within the unit were applied during the exercise.

=================

During NATO Mace XIII in Slovakia, a Rafale B flew unmolested over a S300 radar and was the only type engaged in the exercise able to do it.

Out of all the aircraft involved, only the Rafale-B succeeded against the S-300. If the Rafale did well against the S-300, it would have naturally done well against the older Libyan SAMs. Perhaps they will be more careful against the S-400 and S-500.
 
DBF works at the element level. Now explain this away, Sherlock.
Easy...You confused the word 'simultaneous' with having more beams than available T/R modules.

To be/have 'simultaneous' means having more than one operations in one time period. Regarding the subject under debate, it falls under 'sub-arrays' choreography.

Here is a post from me dated Feb 2015 that mentioned that feature...

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-aesa-radar-hope.632/page-5#post-6820614

Here is another dated Jun 2011...

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/is-i...th-or-semi-stealth.116019/page-6#post-1895551

You came on this forum in 2016. YOU do not know what you are talking about today while I was explaining these things yrs ago.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree.
Yes...We can agree that you do not what you are talking about.

I will continue believing the Spectra is capable of a lot more than you think, you can believe otherwise. In about 10 years, this will become common knowledge anyway.
That is hilarious.

AESA sub-array partitioning and choreography software and hardware have been in the public domain for DECADES starting with the PESA technology since 1960. When PESA was being deployed, multiple beams technology development were already well underway. Sub-array partitioning and choreography software are already in IEEE repository for all to see.

You said this back on page 346 post 5189...

"the Rafale's radar has 1000+ T/R modules, a digital radar can create 2000+ individual beams with individual characteristics, it can even go up to 5000 beams, even 10000 beams,...

We want to see a few credible sources that says I can have five times the beam quantity over available T/R modules.
 

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