JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Arsalan]

No representation at Farnborough 2016!
@Windjammer @Tempest II

 

[Windjammer]

I am not sure what air combats you are referring to here. I don't recall any reasonably matched foes meeting in the air since the Falklands maybe. But that's just me.

The standard JF-17 package also has four missiles.

That last part is speculation. Flying in such close proximity to each other's FOBs guns are bound to be used. But thats just my speculation against yours. I'll leave it with someone with more knowledge and/or experience. @Windjammer

Interestingly the last known gun kill was due to the AAM not hitting their target.
On February 26, 1999, Ethiopian Capt. Aster Tolossa flying an Su-27S killed an Eritrean MiG 29UB with 30mm Gun, She first fired two missiles which the MiG evaded, but then killed him with guns. She is also the first female pilot to have a confirmed air combat kill.

 

[gambit]

I am not sure what air combats you are referring to here. I don't recall any reasonably matched foes meeting in the air since the Falklands maybe. But that's just me.

The standard JF-17 package also has four missiles.

That last part is speculation. Flying in such close proximity to each other's FOBs guns are bound to be used. But thats just my speculation against yours. I'll leave it with someone with more knowledge and/or experience. @Windjammer

Am going to speak from a missile designer's perspective, not because I was a missile designer, but because of due to certain aspects of my (once) job, I had to know something about designing missiles, specifically air-air missiles.

Q: Why do we have categories of 'long', 'middle', and 'short' range missiles ?

Before we answer that question, there is one thing we must know that is COMMON to every missile, whether it is air-air, air-ground, or ICBMs, which is surface-surface.

That common thing is that for a period of time starting immediately after the missile exited its restrains, the carriage rail or the underground silo, its sensor package is INACTIVE. During this time, the missile, while in free flight, is essentially blind. The missile maybe designed to receive target updates from the parent, but that info does not occur until a certain period of time.

The reason is very simple: Safety.

We do not want to kill the launcher, whether it is an aircraft or the underground silo.

I, the missile, do not want to endanger the parent launcher while I am severing restrains and controls. During these milliseconds, I will leave the launcher in as stable flight as possible. So during those same milliseconds, I will not allow the sensor package to give me target information, no matter how bad or good that information maybe. It does not matter even if target information came from the parent. I will not allow any attributes of my physical state, such as vibrations from my rocket motor and/or from aerodynamic stresses on my body, to endanger the parent. I will fly in as stable a flight as possible.

Everything in the above paragraph are represented by mathematics, which are then translated into computer languages, which are known as 'flight control and guidance laws'.

So then...Why do we have categories of 'long', 'middle', and 'short' range missiles ?

In interception laws, everything must be exploited to their fullest. If the target is 'long', no matter how arbitrary is this 'long' distance figure, the missile should have an altitude advantage. So we program the missile to gain some altitude BEFORE its sensor package can have influence. The flight profile would have a sharp nose up to gain altitude, a stable burn in a plateau, then sensor guidance begins.

Skip the 'medium' range and jump to the 'short' range missile.

What happens for the 'short' range missile is that there is no gain in altitude. The assumption is that the target is so close that high altitude gain to get that 'big picture' perspective, then gravity assist to gain speed are meaningless. It is best that, as soon as I am safely away from the parent, I am going to turn on my sensor and begins accepting its guidance.

A: The post launch safety margin is common to all missile designs. What the missile DOES after this time and distance is what create the categories of 'long', 'medium', and 'short' range air-air missile.

Will there be a situation where the target is so close, once that safety margin is passed, that the target is too close that the missile cannot adequately detect and maneuvers to intercept ? Yes, and that is where the gun comes in.

Modern avionics are sophisticated enough to warn the pilot that even his specifically designed missiles have reduced odds of success and that reduction is so great that not even the computer cannot compensate for target variations. Hence, the gun.

With the gun, the fighter aircraft basically said to the pilot: 'F-kit. I cannot handle this. Shoot him yourself.'

Now it falls back to Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM). This is where pilot training in BFM shines. Either the pilot survives to paint his jet, or he dies. This is why the USAF have Fighter Weapons School, the USN have 'Top Gun', and everybody tries to go to Red Flag.

This is why selecting your loadout is so time consuming. You have a finite hardpoint count. What is your mission ? If you are required to VISUALLY identify your target in an interception, then 'long' and 'medium' missiles are useless. Visual ID pretty much put both into each other's short range missiles and gun range. On the other hand,if Command says this part of the sky is hostile, then a 'long' and 'medium' range loadout make sense. As soon as you make radar contact and if the IFF response is not valid, you shoot at the longest distance your guidance suggest. With modern fighters backed up by sophisticated radars, the gun is the weapon of final resort.

 

[nomi007]

any idea about chinese hmd progress
that's will also very important for pakistan

 

[Shabi1]

The F-14 has a chin mounted IRST, that seems pretty doable. But the most practical spot for a additional hardpoint for a pod would be opposite the gun.

.

However if we are really lucky and I have a feeling we might be as PAF likes to give us last minute surprises, there could be a JSF style optical tracking system for the thunder cooking up courtesy of J-31/J-20 development. Since JF-17 Block-3 will have a AESA radar, deletion of the mechanical steering components will free up space in the nose. The nose will need a re design anyway on the Block-3 for the cooling system needed on AESA, so change should be expected there. According to a Chinese source they've made some breakthroughs and despite the size the Thunder's AESA will be boasting a pretty impressive peak and average power output, so cooling will be needed.

Whatever happens with Block-3 we will likely have to wait till final product as its been a norm now that developments not released till last moment (which is good in some ways).

 

[muhammadali233]

What is VVR in avionics?Can't seem to find any suitable explanations about it on google.

 

[Tempest II]

What is VVR in avionics?Can't seem to find any suitable explanations about it on google.

video and voice recorder/Video Voice Recorder ?

 

[muhammadali233]

video and voice recorder/Video Voice Recorder ?

Black box/dashcam/gun cam type thing?

 

[Tempest II]

Black box/dashcam/gun cam type thing?

http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/military/Typhoon-Europes-Finest_917.html#.V4lcWY-cHDc

Debriefing, training and post-incident analysis are supported by a video and voice recorder (VVR) from Computing Devices, backed up by a crash survivable recorder provided by BAE Systems (previously GEC-Marconi Elmer). General Dynamics UK contributed a central warnings panel and other technology for the VVR, a high-resolution cockpit system that places a record of HUD video, head-down displays, pilot voice and digital data bus information on a TEAC recorder.

Not my area but looks like there go to the blackbox as well in case of a crash but they are recorded on other easily accessible media

 

[HRK]

Note: plz read as

A turn rate of sustained 16°.0/sec (instantaneous 19°.0/sec)

 

[Hell hound]

are you talking about munir saheb?

do you have any info about sir murad khan it been a while since we last saw him.

 

[Tempest II]

View attachment 318483 View attachment 318484View attachment 318486 View attachment 318485

Can someone please explain the turnrates? They are way off the scale by a factor of 10

 

[Paksanity]

Can someone please explain the turnrates? They are way off the scale by a factor of 10

I think it's a misprint. Instead of degree symbol (°), they printed 0. Perhaps it is 16° and 19° instead of 160 and 190.

 

[Tempest II]

I think it's a misprint. Instead of degree symbol (°), they printed 0. Perhaps it is 16° and 19° instead of 160 and 190.

Thanks. Makes sense, but ITR of 19 degrees is low. I guess it is not saying "maximum", so this misses out a given altitude, speed and even load regime.

 

[syed_yusuf]

19 degree is pretty good, but we do not know what speed, altitude etc.

for example., instantaneous turn rate @ 15,000 ft. (4,572m) - Two IR Missiles - 50% Int. Fuel

M2000 - 22 degrees/ sec
F-16C - 18 degrees/ sec
F-18C - 18.5 degrees/ sec