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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

Any chance they might look at 2~3 squadrons of off-the-shelf FC-31 as a stopgap for Azm? It could make for a good option for replacing the Mirage III/5 in the strike and maritime roles.

I seriously doubt Pakistan can come out with indigenous fifth generation fighter within 10-15 years due to financial and technical short coming What we can expect J-31 evolved into a FC-31 with Pakistani and Turkish sub system .
 
I seriously doubt Pakistan can come out with indigenous fifth generation fighter within 10-15 years due to financial and technical short coming What we can expect J-31 evolved into a FC-31 with Pakistani and Turkish sub system .
Just sit tight , make some long term (5-10 year ) popcorn and wait
 
Bilal it would be possible yet don't you think the off the shelf would be too expensive to maintain ? Rather wait a couple of years under nuclear protection to buy extra 4-5 local Azm squadrons

Hi,

It would be a good idea that at your age---you would read up on the threads about the issue and understand how it would be accomplished---the 5th gen project---rather than making a post of not much value---.

Young man---in 2 to 3 years time---you won't even have the JF17 BLK3---. What drugs are you kids on nowadays---.

Do you kids have any concept of learning and understanding issues when you are amongst the adults---?

Any thoughts what is this 'AZM' going to be. J20 mods?

Hi,

As the Paf is focussed on a single engine aircraft---that is what it would be---. On one side is the design of the F35 and on the other side is the design of the J31.

Now if there is a chinese engine out there to power a single engine 5th gen aircraft---then that is what it is going to be---a single engine twin tail stealth---otherwise the J31 would do fine with possibly a RD93MA.

Whatever it is---we may have an exposure within a years time---.

The real problem is INTEGRATION---if the chinese procure the AZM for their airforce---then it would be an easier job---otherwise there is going to be misery if Paf goes in it alone---.
 
Hi,

It would be a good idea that at your age---you would read up on the threads about the issue and understand how it would be accomplished---the 5th gen project---rather than making a post of not much value---.

Young man---in 2 to 3 years time---you won't even have the JF17 BLK3---. What drugs are you kids on nowadays---.

Do you kids have any concept of learning and understanding issues when you are amongst the adults---?
Sir , I read Alot and try as much as I can to gain knowledge , here I was simply asking a really simple question to get answers from a well learnt person.
I'm sorry if that gave the impression that I'm on drug, however I would like to confirm that I'm not on any kind of intoxicant.
I like to ask the adults questions to learn.
Here I asked him rather than buying expensive off the shelf fighters , is it possible to wait for the local ( which I know will take a decade)
Please next time don't just say that I'm on drugs or equate me with kids.
Thanks.
 
Bilal it would be possible yet don't you think the off the shelf would be too expensive to maintain ? Rather wait a couple of years under nuclear protection to buy extra 4-5 local Azm squadrons
As said a few times above, it'll take quite a bit longer than 5-7 years for Project Azm to be a factor, especially if it is a new or original design. Even with Chengdu's involvement, I can't see how a design would reach serial production and full operating clearance in less than 12-15 years, if not longer. If you factor in the time for production and then switching several squadrons to the new fighter, then it could be a total of 20 years before the Azm fighter is fielded in sizable numbers.

Hi,

It would be a good idea that at your age---you would read up on the threads about the issue and understand how it would be accomplished---the 5th gen project---rather than making a post of not much value---.

Young man---in 2 to 3 years time---you won't even have the JF17 BLK3---. What drugs are you kids on nowadays---.

Do you kids have any concept of learning and understanding issues when you are amongst the adults---?



Hi,

As the Paf is focussed on a single engine aircraft---that is what it would be---. On one side is the design of the F35 and on the other side is the design of the J31.

Now if there is a chinese engine out there to power a single engine 5th gen aircraft---then that is what it is going to be---a single engine twin tail stealth---otherwise the J31 would do fine with possibly a RD93MA.

Whatever it is---we may have an exposure within a years time---.

The real problem is INTEGRATION---if the chinese procure the AZM for their airforce---then it would be an easier job---otherwise there is going to be misery if Paf goes in it alone---.
If an original design done with support from Chengdu, then Chengdu might look to market the design to the PLAAF and PLAN as well. I'd say twin engine is plausible, but with emphasis on different design concepts, such as omitting the horizontal stabilizer (an area Chengdu has evident experience in via the J-10 and J-20). Interestingly, the PAF even referenced the Airbus FCAS.
Project Azm - FCAS.jpg


I seriously doubt Pakistan can come out with indigenous fifth generation fighter within 10-15 years due to financial and technical short coming What we can expect J-31 evolved into a FC-31 with Pakistani and Turkish sub system .
The PAF said it's working with China on Azm, the question is whether Azm is the Shenyang FC-31 OR a new design made with Chengdu's support.
 
Last edited:
First I said that its not my problem when some so called adult is behaving like an infant. But yes it is. You may know more than some other people but it does not give you right to bash them in such a way. The measure of some person's maturity is not his knowledge but it is the way in which he treats someone of lower standing. There may be many of us silent readers of forum who might know a lot more than you. But we don't tell you to stop posting or expressing your thoughts.
You are a knowing man. But you are not the only one. If your knowledge is mature plz make your behaviour as well.
Regards.
Hi,

It would be a good idea that at your age---you would read up on the threads about the issue and understand how it would be accomplished---the 5th gen project---rather than making a post of not much value---.

Young man---in 2 to 3 years time---you won't even have the JF17 BLK3---. What drugs are you kids on nowadays---.

Do you kids have any concept of learning and understanding issues when you are amongst the adults---?



Hi,

As the Paf is focussed on a single engine aircraft---that is what it would be---. On one side is the design of the F35 and on the other side is the design of the J31.

Now if there is a chinese engine out there to power a single engine 5th gen aircraft---then that is what it is going to be---a single engine twin tail stealth---otherwise the J31 would do fine with possibly a RD93MA.

Whatever it is---we may have an exposure within a years time---.

The real problem is INTEGRATION---if the chinese procure the AZM for their airforce---then it would be an easier job---otherwise there is going to be misery if Paf goes in it alone---.
 
I think the 5th gen Azm could be a lot cheaper and simpler than past 5th gen aircraft. This is because:

1. Technologies have matured and do not need to be reinvented
2. Pakistan can use the spare parts train of China
3. A less ambitious design that focuses on reasonable performance rather than trying to build the next uber stealth design.
4. Cooperation with China, perhaps the rival delta design from Chengdu to the J-31

Bilal Khan shared an interesting picture of a shield presented. If you look closely, it looks like a pure delta with canted twin tails. Perhaps the most ideal, bang for the bucks, stealth design.

A simple KISS philosophy would result in the following design choices:

1. Borrow the spare parts of the J-31, the entire front nose to cockpit section.
2. Borrow the landing gearing and other parts from the J-31 (as it will be a similar weight class design)
3. Borrow avionics and radar from Chinese industry
4. No need for a full internal weapons bay, just conformally carried weapons, semi-recessed, under the belly.
5. Basic stealth features, aim should be an RCS of 0.1m2
6. Focus on getting IRST / EOTS / DAS as this is key to anti-stealth air combat.

For missiles - use what is available in China or South Africa / Brazil. Give Denel a sweet temptation deal - give TOT for seeker technology and PAF will go with the A Darter.

Use that deal to build a thorough SAM complex for ground forces and for ships.

Once you have seeker technology you can actually update to an IRST (early IRSTs where just SRAAM seekers).

Use FCS of the Chengdu delta rival design to F-31. Keep a simple delta design without canards, but with LERX and thrust vectoring, and a V tail. Would be a Mirage-2000 on steroids or a mini F-23.

With the KISS fighter, you should be able to have a ready for production design in 5 years. There is no reason why this can't be achieved. Main delay with JF-17 was Zardari / Bhutto and later the PAF brown sahib, kiss-white-man-backside "F-16 mafia". As a poster in Pakdef PShamim once pointed out, many of them made a lot of money from basically betraying their country.

Move on to the Attack helicopter problem. This is a COIN / CAS problem essentially. Two main scenarios:

1. Balochistan / PK where you need CAS / COIN like the US needs in Afghanistan. Incidentally, the best platform for this for the US was not the Apache but the A-10 Thunderbolt. This is because a plane can stay longer, have greater payload / armor than a helicopter, and are cheaper to purchase and run on a cpfh basis. At the same time, the A-10 could cover the troops for a long time, hanging up there, while other aircraft just came and left. The US grunts loved the A-10.

2. Defending against "Cold Start" basically a big blunder by a Hindutva extremist government. The only possibility of an armored thrust is between the desert and the fixed defences around Lahore sector. Here is where an armored battle will take place, and India is not only buying lots of more tanks, but a huge number of other armored vehicles. This is a serious threat despite nukes - a Nawaz government may not have the balls to use tactical nukes.

For thwarting an armored combined arms thrust, with SAM units and Apache and other attack helicopters, again, the best solution is NOT an attack helicopter. Attack helicopters are by design slower, with giant radar returns and will be hunted down by SAMs and the top radar equiped Apaches.

So what is the solution? Here me out:

If PA cannot get an attack helicopter, it can easily get an A-10 equivalent. According to a very senior LM / US mil person, the best replacement for the A-10 is the basic form of the British SABA. A relatively simple but sturdy plane, designed to counter an armored thrust in Europe, while fighting of attack helicopters.

This can easily be built in Pakistan as the design is very simple and the parts, surprisingly, are easily available. VIZ:
1. The SABA is a single seat, single turboprop engined plane, with a pusher propeller, unlike other CAS turboprops, and more like a UAV design. This gives its enhanced survivability (engines are hiding behind like the A-10) while higher speeds (harder for IAF / SAMs to shoot down)

2. An engine of the class required is already produced by Ukraine, and is a highly mature and tested system, and would be cheap, given the economic condition there.

3. Use the Cirit as the major weapon system. Studies show that the 2.75 rockets can replace guns for basic CAS / COIN work and be highly effective.

4. Use the parts bin of the Chinese industry.

Cost for such a plane could easily be as little as 7 million USD and a major portion of this going to the local economy and in local currency.

The aircraft would be survivable and have STOL performance, meaning they can be based on semi-prepared runways, roads, flat fields.

Because of the inherent superiority of airplanes to helicopters in speed, range and loiter, they would easily overcome Indian attack helicopters and be Ababeels for any armored "cold" start.
 
Hi,

Around 10 years ago---when I stated on the board that the JF17 would be taking around 8-10 years for integration---

Now with the BLK3 coming in the next couple of years with aesa----you need another few years for integration of the new product---and then going onto the 5th gen---more headaches---.

So---Paf will not have a proven and tested system for a longtime to come---.

So---what that tells you BILAL---it tells you to go and buy proven weapons systems from a proven weapons manufacturer in a timely manner for your defense---and keep working on the ones that you want to build for yourself---to be self sufficient---.

We maybe in a deeper shi-t in the next 3 to 5 years---because we would be sending out our top tier pilots to the JF17 BLK3 aircraft---and less capable pilots would be flying the top tier operational aircraft that we have the JF 17 BLK2 and the F16's---.

The Paf's problems are not going to end for awhile---. The Rafale would have been the best purchase the Paf would have made---but alas---!!!

First I said that its not my problem when some so called adult is behaving like an infant. But yes it is. You may know more than some other people but it does not give you right to bash them in such a way. The measure of some person's maturity is not his knowledge but it is the way in which he treats someone of lower standing. There may be many of us silent readers of forum who might know a lot more than you. But we don't tell you to stop posting or expressing your thoughts.
You are a knowing man. But you are not the only one. If your knowledge is mature plz make your behaviour as well.
Regards.

Hi,

This is not a social network site---or a lovey dovey gathering place.

The board is full of information and yet a 17 years old barges in with totally thoughtless post---on reprimand a 30 year old wants to come to the rescue of the 17 years old without understanding the significance of the location he is at.

This is weapons world---weapons kill and maim and destroy---they are ruthless brutal and unforgiving---.

Participation here deserves some understanding and respect for the site---posters---with their insight must raise the standards of the forum rather than bring it down---.
 
As said a few times above, it'll take quite a bit longer than 5-7 years for Project Azm to be a factor, especially if it is a new or original design. Even with Chengdu's involvement, I can't see how a design would reach serial production and full operating clearance in less than 12-15 years, if not longer. If you factor in the time for production and then switching several squadrons to the new fighter, then it could be a total of 20 years before the Azm fighter is fielded in sizable numbers.


If an original design done with support from Chengdu, then Chengdu might look to market the design to the PLAAF and PLAN as well. I'd say twin engine is plausible, but with emphasis on different design concepts, such as omitting the horizontal stabilizer (an area Chengdu has evident experience in via the J-10 and J-20). Interestingly, the PAF even referenced the Airbus FCAS.View attachment 454737


The PAF said it's working with China on Azm, the question is whether Azm is the Shenyang FC-31 OR a new design made with Chengdu's support.
upload_2018-2-19_19-49-3.png

Did someone notice?
upload_2018-2-19_19-49-46.png
 
A personal question if you dont mind.
Do you check the age of every member before replying him?

So in your opnion only select few or chosen few should be allowd to play posty posty. Why don't you set up an entry test for posting privileges.

Anyways be happy.
Regards.

Hi,

Around 10 years ago---when I stated on the board that the JF17 would be taking around 8-10 years for integration---

Now with the BLK3 coming in the next couple of years with aesa----you need another few years for integration of the new product---and then going onto the 5th gen---more headaches---.

So---Paf will not have a proven and tested system for a longtime to come---.

So---what that tells you BILAL---it tells you to go and buy proven weapons systems from a proven weapons manufacturer in a timely manner for your defense---and keep working on the ones that you want to build for yourself---to be self sufficient---.

We maybe in a deeper shi-t in the next 3 to 5 years---because we would be sending out our top tier pilots to the JF17 BLK3 aircraft---and less capable pilots would be flying the top tier operational aircraft that we have the JF 17 BLK2 and the F16's---.

The Paf's problems are not going to end for awhile---. The Rafale would have been the best purchase the Paf would have made---but alas---!!!



Hi,

This is not a social network site---or a lovey dovey gathering place.

The board is full of information and yet a 17 years old barges in with totally thoughtless post---on reprimand a 30 year old wants to come to the rescue of the 17 years old without understanding the significance of the location he is at.

This is weapons world---weapons kill and maim and destroy---they are ruthless brutal and unforgiving---.

Participation here deserves some understanding and respect for the site---posters---with their insight must raise the standards of the forum rather than bring it down---.
 

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