JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 6]

[ziaulislam]

i still wonder why senior members go into useless lengthy discussion with members with less than 100 posts

 

[Gandhi follower]

Kid please come up with logic. Especially when you are talking with Mastan bhai

I would love to hear your argument than your personal barb.

 

[v9s]

You sound like selling a toy than a strategic weapon. Selling of strategic weapon has nothing to do with marketing it is about capacity and capabilities, threat perception and ofcourse cost and supply chain.

What is this then?

 

[araz]

Kid please come up with logic. Especially when you are talking with Mastan bhai

Mastan Khan is not a baby. He is capable of defending himself. The poster on the other side has posted with respect and tried to point out the stages of negotiations. You disrespect him by calling him kid and it is unfair. For the moment I would suggest keeping out of the debate or contributing by your own assessment. Too many flame wars are started by our junior well wishers when senior members are capable of handling themselves.
Araz

Bhai sahab and mastan bhaiji,

You forget about the evaluation step. This 10-15 guys will not do the evaluation. Evaluation will be done by the ultimate customer. In case of strategic weapons it is armed forces. As far connecting the dots are concerned . The specific requirements are mentioned in RFP. Now if seller is marketing that he meets the criteria and then it is evaluated to customer satisfaction. And then cost negotiations.

No offence mastan ji, I believe you have worked in retail like cars for example. You don't have experience in b2b sale.

I think abdulbari jan had already covered the post. The evaluation team does do its job. However as other members have pointed out other considerations come into it. Case in point the evaluation of Rafale by a team from PAF in 2000s. Team comprised of some senior members including Rao Qamar Sulaiman who was not the ACM then. The plane was really well liked but did the deal go through.?. The Argentinians really liked the JFT. Finances did not allow it. There have been so many cases where second choice Aircrafts have been chosen due to financial political and other considerations(some very dubious ones). So all in all T&E teams are important but not the final deal clinchers.
Araz

 

[ziaulislam]

anyway just want to add the MRCA RFI was in 2004. so it has been good 13 years hunt for fighter that ended with nothing. This has to be some sort of record!

 

[ANG]

anyway just want to add the MRCA RFI was in 2004. so it has been good 13 years hunt for fighter that ended with nothing. This has to be some sort of record!

India Cancels $12B Combat Jet Program

 

[MastanKhan]

Bhai sahab and mastan bhaiji,

You forget about the evaluation step. This 10-15 guys will not do the evaluation. Evaluation will be done by the ultimate customer. In case of strategic weapons it is armed forces. As far connecting the dots are concerned . The specific requirements are mentioned in RFP. Now if seller is marketing that he meets the criteria and then it is evaluated to customer satisfaction. And then cost negotiations.

No offence mastan ji, I believe you have worked in retail like cars for example. You don't have experience in b2b sale.

Hi,

Well here is the thing---you are looking at it thru a different looking glass than mine-----. What I am talking about here, is of a scenario---where the buyer has limited options----a very narrow spectrum to choose from---and not a lot of time at its disposal.

So--this buyer is an opportune buyer---from him to utilize his opportunity----he needs to do his homework before hand---gather the information and narrow the field of options available if any---.

Their heart and mind is already set on what they want to get #1 choice # 2 choice # 3 choice

For Paf---it is the F 16---if they can get it---they will go for the BLK 60 with eyes closed----and pak military woud not think twice for any current U S weapons system. The Egyptians----Sisi was greatly impressed with the Rafale----60 days it took him to get the nitty gritty done to get that aircraft----.

Once the sanctions come off Iran---you will see Germans goods swarming the Iranian market along with the Japanese goods. The Russians are mystified by the French----even thought they have been screwed by the French many a times----but they still love their French.

But on the other hand---Indians are at a total cultural loss to know where they stand when procuring weapons. They are totally clueless---they are like a herd lost in a large grazing field---eg mmrca deal.

And so I truly understand where you are coming from----and why you feel what I am saying is not correct

 

[Viper0011.]

I may have not followed it but what i stated is the basic principle for purchase of strategic weapons which will serve you for another 30-40 years. Customer will do his/ her own assessment on the basis of his or her requirement. Marketing has a very very limited role to play in it. This is not a retail sale it about b2b marketing. You have to customize the product.

LOL, are you buying "computers" or "water coolers" or "projectors"?? WTH a B2B has to do with a weapon's sale? Military procurements have nothing to do with a Business to Business sale. This is hilarious. Have you every procured any weapons for IA or another Indian strategic military institute? If yes, tell us the if the item procured was a tank, a gun, cannon, helicopters, etc. I don't need the confidential data of course, just a high level name of the item you were involved with procuring.

I'd love to hear this answer.

 

[MastanKhan]

I may have not followed it but what i stated is the basic principle for purchase of strategic weapons which will serve you for another 30-40 years. Customer will do his/ her own assessment on the basis of his or her requirement. Marketing has a very very limited role to play in it. This is not a retail sale it about b2b marketing. You have to customize the product.

Hi,

The strategic weapon may serve us for 30 or 40 years---but the main issue is what it is going to do today, for me, when I deploy it on the frontline. That is what the weapons are for---to fight your current wars and come out ahead----.

You have to survive your tomorrow to think of 40 years ahead. If the aircraft survives---then well and good---but if it does not---there are newer ones coming in market.

Marketing has every thing to do with it---. That is why you see air shows and defense industry shows---and you see brochures and you check out the displays and you see the videos that the defense industry puts out---and there are dedicated web sites touting the product and the specs.

And customization is available---at an extra cost---and you can also say no to customization---ain't gonna happe----take it or leave it because the effort is not worth it---rewards are not high enough---.

 

[gambit]

You sound like selling a toy than a strategic weapon. Selling of strategic weapon has nothing to do with marketing it is about capacity and capabilities, threat perception and ofcourse cost and supply chain.

For countries that must purchase their defense, marketing does matter -- very much.

For countries that must purchase their defense, you must keep in mind that you are assessing a finalized product. For the seller, he realize that his product may not be suitable for all situations, so he must perform due diligence and assess potential clients as to their potential adversaries, terrain, ability to use, ability to pay not just the product but for the support as well, and last but not least whether a potential client is hostile to his country or not. Then he must tailor his marketing points accordingly.

 

[araz]

anyway just want to add the MRCA RFI was in 2004. so it has been good 13 years hunt for fighter that ended with nothing. This has to be some sort of record!

There is another angle that I think we should look at things. Before I write anything more I need to emphasis that my post is purely looking at the strategic aspect of denial and that this is not an attempt at a flame war.
The MMRCA trial when it started had the aim of finding a suitable aircraft to replace the legacy mig21s that had reached the stage of retirement. Another long term aim has always been denying access to superior western technology to the adversary. One devious thought that has always crept up in my mind is why did IAF go for a twin engined AC when they had single engined ACs to replace. The aim was always to go for the Mirage 2000 upgraded which is single engined able to more than adequately replace the Mig21s and although expensive to maintain available with a whole assembly line. It will remain relevant for anothsr 20-30 yrs with upgrades. So why go for this whole shebang of international tenders and trials and assessments when you have your plans made up.
I think , and you are more than welcome to think otherwise, that somewhere along the line it was thought to kill 2 birds with a single stone and deny the enemy in the process as well. I think that 2 imponderables came into the equation which had not been considered or perhaps ignored. Firstly the leaps and bounds which the Chinese have taken in the aviation sector and secondly the success of the JFT. The IAF had thought that by the time everything pans out they would have inducted the Tejas upgraded the M2Ks. If need be they would go ahead and by a couple of squadrons and that would be it. Purely through lack of choice PAF went ahead with the JFT which has exceeded its own expectations and bought some new and MLUed 16s to counter it.
The indians on the other hand got themselves believing that they would be able to actually buy a twin engined Western AC with manufacturing rights to offset costs and achieve aims. This also became necessary on account of the massive buildup of the Chinese AF. But financial considerations and the usual French tricks have now taken its toll and so they are receeding and may actually run to the Russians again if the Rafale deal goes sour. The cost per unit has soared upto 200 million and upkeep would probably be difficult as well due to the soaring French prices on replacement parts. However to some extent the denial aspect has worked and PAF has been denied access to the french and to some extent even US arms.
So to me the whole àcquisition cycle was fraught with difficulties and calculted risks which seem to have backfired. The failure to induct the Tejas in time has actually made life even more difficult for the IAF. In turn for the PAF they have a plane capable of being tinkered around with as only PAF knows how to and the 16s have kept the situation from getting too costly. There are additional options from Chinese sources and the red bear may become more amenable to selling us hardware in due course.
So it was a plan that failed probably because of the time it took them to evaluate and negotiate with the various suppliers. For what it is worth the Rafale is still very relevant but not so much so in 5 -10years time. Now a new game must be played which involves the fifth generation ACs to counter the possible acquisition of J31 by PAF.
Araz

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

What is this then?

This was very disturbing

 

[Viper0011.]

What is this then?

hahaha!!! What the hell???? This is so funny!!!

Israel is "the man", I think everyone knew that from what they did to Arab air-forces. So now Israel will "protect" the Indian girlfriend ????? LOL, this is the funniest commercial of the year.

I thought it was a trailor to an Indian movie till I noticed the empty missile chassis. I'd give this post a positive rating if I could.

 

[Windjammer]

 

[araz]

Are those training rounds or actual AAMs?
Araz