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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

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suppose argentina deals happen and export does happen, wouldnt your statement seems a foolish one where u said there are no "chances" what so ever?!

Argentina produced 24 Pampas in 30 years, and FADEA is well overdue in a lot of proyects. I have no idea of who say that, but its just smoke, and even if there is any confirmation i gona only belive it when i see the first roll out... in 2040 +/-.

Also remember that we have a anti-military goverment.

BTW, i want to clarify a few things, main corcern for "Argentina forum warriors" its not that is based or not of the MIG-21, main point of discution is its combat range, no one belives the official data of 1300km with 3 tanks and AA, and even less if it can get anywhere using anti-ship missiles, nopoint of carrying 2 very good missiles if you cant get far enoght to fire them, remeber that anti-ship missions are done at sea level and that uses lot of fuel, the low fuel capacity of the JF-17 plus that is only capable of using 1 external tank on these missions is a concern.
To make it short, a whole AF on a single very light fighter it does not seem to be a good idea.

Another thing is the general distrust of any chinese made thing by common people, China has been selling crappy things here for years, thats why nobody trust in anything coming from china, and thats why so many rather see the RC-400 and micas. I know it should not apply, but remember that we all are just common people on a forum.

Also Argentina have no problems with any country of Latin America, Latin america in general is really quiet, if there was no war when Colombia attacked a guerrilla on Ecuador without permission, and Chavez was very whilling to try out those SU-30 to attack Colombia, nothing is gona happen here.
Also Brasil and Argentina the only rivalry is footbal, we are partners in a lot of others things.

UK is the only threat to stability on LA.
 
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I do have some rudimentary knowledge of arithmetic, and I also understand our officialdom, but only slightly. Please keep in mind that the JF-17 is heavier than advertised, and its engines as supplied produce less thrust than advertised. With development of the platform it will someday approach those figures. Right now it is at 0.85 to 1.
ok sir, i dont have any "inside" knowledge on JF-17
 
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According to "Jane's Defense Weekly," June 19 reported that the Pakistan Air Force has successfully completed the "Fierce Dragon" fighter air refueling system ground testing, and look forward to this summer to achieve the first aerial refueling aircraft testing.

June 6, Pakistan Air Force Chief of Staff Tahir - Rafiq - Bute Pakistan Air Force headquarters will be in "Jane's" interview process, said, "Fierce Dragon" fighter by China and Pakistan jointly developed, if The aircraft can have air refueling capability, its international sales market will be more broad. "This ground test was very successful, and I am satisfied. (2013) will be successfully completed in late summer air refueling test." He said.
According to reports, a number of developing countries "Fierce Dragon" fighter is very interesting because of the fighter's fighter, compared with Western countries more competitive on price, Egypt and Indonesia, is the "Fierce Dragon" fighter potential future customers.

Reported that since 2010 purchased from Ukraine four Il-76 transport aircraft, the Pakistan Air Force fighter jets on the proposed increase in air refueling capability that vision. The bout will be the first time that the words "Fierce Dragon" fighter will have air refueling capability that is no longer merely the envisaged on.

Bout admiral said the Pakistan Air Force on the "Fierce Dragon" fighter on the ground test performance "very satisfied" and that the aircraft will eventually be side by side with the F-16 fighter to become the backbone of the Pakistan Air Force forces.

Pakistan Air Force has been exhibited in 2006 Xiaolong fighter air refueling pipe

bf4d1fe8365c63a7b9f5f5d4315acc7b.jpg
 
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According to "Jane's Defense Weekly," June 19 reported that the Pakistan Air Force has successfully completed the "Fierce Dragon" fighter air refueling system ground testing, and look forward to this summer to achieve the first aerial refueling aircraft testing.

June 6, Pakistan Air Force Chief of Staff Tahir - Rafiq - Bute Pakistan Air Force headquarters will be in "Jane's" interview process, said, "Fierce Dragon" fighter by China and Pakistan jointly developed, if The aircraft can have air refueling capability, its international sales market will be more broad. "This ground test was very successful, and I am satisfied. (2013) will be successfully completed in late summer air refueling test." He said.
According to reports, a number of developing countries "Fierce Dragon" fighter is very interesting because of the fighter's fighter, compared with Western countries more competitive on price, Egypt and Indonesia, is the "Fierce Dragon" fighter potential future customers.

Reported that since 2010 purchased from Ukraine four Il-76 transport aircraft, the Pakistan Air Force fighter jets on the proposed increase in air refueling capability that vision. The bout will be the first time that the words "Fierce Dragon" fighter will have air refueling capability that is no longer merely the envisaged on.

Bout admiral said the Pakistan Air Force on the "Fierce Dragon" fighter on the ground test performance "very satisfied" and that the aircraft will eventually be side by side with the F-16 fighter to become the backbone of the Pakistan Air Force forces.

Pakistan Air Force has been exhibited in 2006 Xiaolong fighter air refueling pipe

bf4d1fe8365c63a7b9f5f5d4315acc7b.jpg

already reported.
 
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Since the JF 17 is inducted in PAF for some years now and more than 2 squads are available now, are there any official / reliable infos about it's operational costs per hour so far? Are there any figures for the F16 to compare?
 
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video in interviews thread
cPLfWDB.jpg

What is the source of his information? After all, ACM Qamar is not an accountant.

The real costs of modern aircraft are related to facilities, manpower and maintenance per flying hour rather than procurement, and those figures for Pakistan are not directly comparable to western countries.
 
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What is the source of his information? After all, ACM Qamar is not an accountant.

The real costs of modern aircraft are related to facilities, manpower and maintenance per flying hour rather than procurement, and those figures for Pakistan are not directly comparable to western countries.

We have a thread with cost/hour of many successful fighter jets. JF-17 was slightly under 20,000 USD/hour.
 
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How were those figures compiled is my question, not what the quoted figures are comparatively.

I can try... the problem is, do we fold in everything, including the pay to the pilot, the mechanics? Do we add in the cost of parts that will eventually be replaced, divided by the number of sorties before that component needs replacement?

See, it can become very convoluted. But a basic cost for fuel is simple enough. Working with pounds and gallons, a typical F-15 sortie consists of internal fuel, plus one external tank, total fuel weight 13,400 + 4,000 = 17,000 pounds. We'd land with fuel remaining, so assume 14,000 pounds of fuel burnt. At 6 pounds per gallon, that is 2,333 gallons used.

If that fuel was purchased at a typical FBO, it'd cost $3 or more per gallon, so that would be perhaps $7,000 for fuel alone. But governments buy in bulk, no taxes, probably less than $1 per gallon.

I would guess $30 worth of oil is burnt each sortie. If you fire 20mm shells, that can add up quickly, at a few dollars per shot. If you add the cost of pilot pay, I'd calculate that by the pilot's annual salary divided by the number of sorties he flies per year. I won't even touch maintenance.

See how quickly it can become complex? I vaguely remember from my time active duty that each training sortie in an F-15C was calculated at something like $24,000 U.S. total cost. A T-38 would be much less, a B-1 much more.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/72511-flying-cost-fighter-jets.html#ixzz2XviFADur

Chogy is one of our great, yet unactive, members. He is a retired USAF pilot and has a lot of experience on his hands.

Meanwhile, you may wish to have a look at this thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/84507-cost-buying-operating-fighters-its-effects-sales.html
 
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Chogy is one of our great, yet unactive, members. He is a retired USAF pilot and has a lot of experience on his hands.

Meanwhile, you may wish to have a look at this thread:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfare/84507-cost-buying-operating-fighters-its-effects-sales.html

Interesting, but still not the answer, although this post hints at what my point is:

Very true in that the reliability and time between overhauls is a HUGE part of a cost. Early jet engines were good for 20 hours or less. Modern engines can easily run for 4,000 hours or more before needing major work. Compare this to even the very best piston engines which will fail long before 2,500 hours.

So if Jet engine "A" works reliably for 4,000 hours and costs 10 million $$, and Engine "B" costs 3 million $$ but is good for only 750 hours and breaks down all the time, engine "A" is probably a much better choice, despite the higher cost. To fully overhaul a jet engine might cost 35% to 65% of the original cost.



An engine being overhauled in PAC vs a GE facility in a western country will have a HUGE difference in the pay of the personnel, for example. Hence the cost to overhaul, everything else being the same will not be comparable.
 
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Pakistan to build radar for JF-17 'Thunder' fighter:

Author:
Farhan Bokhari; Correspondent, Islamabad Section:

Last posted:
2010-Dec-23


The chief of staff of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has stated that Pakistan has built its first facility to manufacture radars for fighter aircraft.

Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman said the indigenously produced radar, built with China's assistance at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), in Kamra, north of Islamabad, would equip the JF-17 'Thunder' fighter aircraft jointly produced by the two countries.

"This is a major step forward. This will be the first such [radar manufacturing] facility in Pakistan," ACM Suleman said in an interview on 21 December at PAF headquarters in Islamabad. He confirmed that the radar would be fitted on the JF-17, which, along with US-supplied F-16 Fighting Falcons, is set to be the PAF's front-line combat aircraft.

Previous reports suggest that the radar to be manufactured will be the Chinese-built CETC/NRIET KLJ-7 radar set. At the 2010 Farnborough Air Show, at which two JF-17s made their debut in the West. The KLJ-7 had received full marks from the JF-17's designers at PAC.

A PAC program officer told : "I have flown with this radar and with other models that we have looked at fitting to this aircraft, such as the Thales RC400, and the Chinese radar is every bit as capable as its contemporary analogs."

The PAF plans to induct up to 30 JF-17s by the end of December 2010. PAC is currently producing more than 30 per cent of JF-17s components, although senior officers involved with the program say this will likely jump to about 60 per cent by the end of 2011.

"This program [JF-17] has come together on a fast track. For Pakistan to make the radar suggests they are getting into complicated systems and adapting them to their own needs," a Western diplomat in Islamabad stated .

Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao concluded a high-profile trip to Islamabad on 19 December during which companies and the governments of both countries signed contracts worth up to USD30 billion.

In a communiqué issued after the visit, China and Pakistan reaffirmed their commitment to further joint development of military hardware. "The two sides agreed to step up personnel training, joint exercises, training and co-operation for national defence, science and technology and collaboration in defence production. The two sides also agreed to give further impetus to maritime security co-operation," the communiqué said.

JDW


Farnborough 2010: Pakistan increases autonomy in production of JF-17 Thunder aircraft:

Author:

Reuben F Johnson; Correspondent, Farnborough Section:

Last posted:
2010-07-23


Two Pakistan Air Force (PAF) JF-17 Thunder aircraft were displayed at the Farnborough International Airshow, marking the first appearance by that platform at any Western airshow. The aircraft were developed and built at China's Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC) Aircraft Plant 132 in Sichuan Province under the FC-1 designator.

The rebranding of the design as the JF-17 is intended to convey the message that the program is a co-operative effort between CAC and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra.

However, the PAF and other senior technical personnel from the PAC have emphasized that "we are doing almost everything by ourselves now" and that where, at one time, assistance from the Chinese would have been required to integrate third-party onboard systems, "we are now able to complete this kind of work without the assistance of the Chinese".

PAC officials stated there has been considerable investment made in the PAC in order to support a full-spectrum capability to not only support the production of the JF-17, but also the manufacturing of its major onboard subsystems. The construction of additional facilities to support JF-17 production has resulted in the creation of four factories at the Kamra site facility that go far beyond its original capacity as just a [commercial] maintenance, repair and overhaul.

The JF-17 program is run by a PAF management team headed by Air-Vice Marshal Mohammed Arif. Speaking, AVM Arif said the team of engineers and designers supporting the JF-17 have proficiency with more than just the Chinese-designed hardware that constitutes the aircraft's configuration at present.

The concept for the JF-17 is to use it as a basic platform that can be exported to multiple countries and to fit it with whatever set of onboard systems a customer would prefer. "We have learnt how to integrate different avionics and weapon systems on to the JF-17," AVM Arif said. "There is still active interest in having the set of French-made hardware for the aircraft - the Thales RC400 radar and the MBDA air-to-air missiles - that have been under discussion for some time now."

The integration of third-party, non-Chinese equipment onto the aircraft is an option that would primarily be at the request of an export customer. The PAC program managers are satisfied with the aircraft's hardware and state that the JF-17's avionics fit and glass cockpit is superior to the older-model F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft that the PAF acquired in the 1980s.

One of the systems the PAC designers give full marks to is the CETC/NRIET KLJ-7 radar set. A PAC program officer told : "I have flown with this radar and with other models that we have looked at fitting to this aircraft, such as the Thales RC400, and the Chinese radar is every bit as capable as its contemporary analogues." He added that the performance of the CETC KG300G electronic warfare pod was effective and that "there will be an upgraded version available within a year-and-a-half".

One of the central question marks on the program has been the aircraft's Russian-designed-and-built Klimov RD-93 jet engine, which is produced by the Chernyshev plant in Moscow.

Just prior to the Farnborough Airshow, the Moscow newspaper Kommersant reported that Mikhail Pogosian, the general director for Sukhoi and RSK-MiG, had written an official letter to the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Co-operation (FSVTS), which regulates all exports of military-related items, and the Russian state arms export monopoly, Rosoboronexport, asking that the next tranche of 100 RD-93 engines to be shipped to CAC in Chengdu be cancelled.

The RD-93 is a specially configured variant of the MiG-29's RD-33, optimized for a single-engine aircraft. This version of the engine was originally conceived in the early 1990s as an option for upgrading older-model MiG-21 aircraft. A similar model of the engine, the SMR-95, was also developed in the same timeframe for use in the South African Mirage F1 and Cheetah D-2 aircraft.

In both configurations, the gearbox and other components of the accessory pack are rotated from the top - where they are positioned on the standard RD-33 - to the bottom of the engine casing.

Pogosian is reportedly requesting a halt to deliveries of the engine to CAC on the grounds that the re-export of the engine, once installed in the FC-1/JF-17, damages the interests of MiG in several markets.

Negotiations for a MiG-29 purchase are supposedly ongoing in some of the same nations - Egypt, Algeria, Bangladesh and Nigeria - that have also been approached by the JF-17 sales team.

AVM Arif stated that "if the Russians decide to cut off shipments of the RD-93 to us, then we still have other options. One of those is a Chinese-made WS-13 engine, which was certified by the Chinese in 2007 and has been in low-rate initial production since 2009. Pakistan industry officials confirm that it is currently undergoing flight tests on an FC-1 aircraft from CAC. Its thrust rating in the present version is almost 10 per cent higher than the RD-93 and an increased/enhanced performance engine version of up to 10 metric tons is in development.

When asked about the WS-13, AVM Arif stated that "the Chinese engine needs time to mature and might not be available for five years or more". However, one of his deputies said privately that the air vice marshal was giving the "worst case scenario and being a bit cautious". The WS-13, they say, could be ready for use with the JF-17 as soon as two years from now.

The JF-17 has also completed trials of dropping of unguided bombs and firings of the Luoyang Electro-Optical Technology Development Center (LOEC) Pi Li PL-5EII infrared air-to-air missile. The LOEC Shan Dian-10 (SD-10), an active radar-homing air-to-air missile, is currently undergoing integration and will be finished with its demonstration firing before the end of the year.

"The biggest plus for the JF-17 is the cost-performance ratio, which is exceptionally good considering what you get at this price," said AVM Arif. The long-term Pakistani plan is to have a high-low mix of fighters with the newer-model F-16C/D Block 52+ aircraft they are receiving from the US as the upper tier and the JF-17 on the lower tier.


JDW


Pakistan retires A-5 'Fantan':

Author:
Farhan Bokhari; Correspondent, Islamabad Section:

Last posted:
2011-04-15

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) retired up to 30 of its Chinese-supplied A-5 'Fantan' ground attack aircraft in March, citing the need to field newer technologies provided by the JF-17 'Thunder' aircraft that it is producing with China.

A senior Pakistan government official stated on 15 April that the batch of 30 A-5s will be kept in storage and "serviced regularly" until a customer can be found. "No such customer is in sight at the moment," the official said.

"The A-5 has left behind a reputation of being a very capable workhorse which never caused any disappointment for the purpose it was built for - to provide close support to ground forces," the official added.

The A-5s were supplied by China in 1984, shortly after Pakistan began receiving its first batch of Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft from the US. Western officials suspect that some A-5s were modified by Pakistan to make them capable of carrying and delivering nuclear weapons, although this was not independently confirmed.

The JF-17, which the PAF plans to make its main fighter, began induction into air force squadrons this year and that more than 40 JF-17s will be in service by end of 2011, by which time Pakistan will have acquired the capability to produce 50 to 60 per cent of its components.


JDW
 
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What is the source of his information? After all, ACM Qamar is not an accountant.

The real costs of modern aircraft are related to facilities, manpower and maintenance per flying hour rather than procurement, and those figures for Pakistan are not directly comparable to western countries.

Do head of company must be an accountant to see overhead and profit?

Do they start to built it within Pakistan or still came from China???

60 to 65 % Pakistani rest is Chinese. In two years 95% Pakistani i read it in thread 4 long back
 
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