JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[SBD-3]

Sir Vcheng
Sorry for being abrupt which is normally not my way.
My point is every big step has to start somewhere. No one in their right mind will establish an aviation industry overnight. But you have to start somewhere. If you are going to start you need to take on a project which is simple and effective which is why PAF took a risk averse route for the JFT. I propose the same methodology transplanted in Saudi. They now have enough educated population and watching a bird that you have a part in building is every boys fancy.
The problem with the western technology is it is far too advanced for them to tackle as of now. Perhaps ten years from now might not be so difficult. The infrastructure and other ancillary industries will spring out once there is a market and an opportunity. Araz

The problem with Saudies is not that no-body wants to give them ToT but rather they are not willing to build things themselves AFAIK Boeing faced problems with their sub-contracting company in KSA about maintenance and parts manufacturing. Then later Typhoon manufacturing also faced similar problems. So I feel its not about they don't know, its more about they don't want to.

 

[Munir]

I agree that marketing could have been a lot better. But in the end you need a tested and trusted plane. There is no way that one would buy a few without PAF showing that it works as expected and you have working maintenance (depot level). That is now being shown. So, if you compare this with Gripen or F16... Not much difference. Those planes had more accidents. Besides that F16 was pushed through throats of many NATO allies. And you know the number of crashed planes is Belgium and Holland. Surely after that it was refined and safer but we should give JF17 some time to mature. There are so many components that need to show data first.

Here the list of Dutch F16 crashes...

F-16 Accidents & Mishaps for the Royal Netherlands Air Force

The Belgians...

F-16 Accidents & Mishaps for the Belgian Air Force

So those were block15 planes with MLU 1/2/3/4 tapes...

 

[SQ8]

Besides, think about it with a Saudi hat or rather kifaya, on the head. Who would you rather choose as a partner if you wanted to establish an aviation industry? May be we can take this discussion elsewhere, unless your answer uses the JF-17 as the best example possible.

All the technological advancements and industrial base considerations aside. Ill recount a story from "The gold bird" as told by A.Cdre Mansour shah. He recounts how the PAF was asked to advise the Saudis on the purchase of a new fighter to equip their airforce. In the competition were the Northrop F-5, the Lockheed F-104. and the English Electric Lightning.

The PAF presented its evaluation as follows; the F-5 was ranked the best for the RSAF .. with the F-104 trailing way behind, the last ranked fighter was the E.E Lightning. As the A.Cdre recounts "The saudis went right ahead and bought the lightning".
The logic given by the Saudis was, that the PAF operates the 104 but placed the F-5 on the top of its list, and the 104 last. So they did not trust the ranking and therefore bought the lightning. Im sure that the rumours of bribery and kickbacks in the program by the British(who know their offspring better than anyone) had nothing to do with it. But that is an example of how they think.

 

[VCheng]

All the technological advancements and industrial base considerations aside. Ill recount a story from "The gold bird" as told by A.Cdre Mansour shah. He recounts how the PAF was asked to advise the Saudis on the purchase of a new fighter to equip their airforce. In the competition were the Northrop F-5, the Lockheed F-104. and the English Electric Lightning.

The PAF presented its evaluation as follows; the F-5 was ranked the best for the RSAF .. with the F-104 trailing way behind, the last ranked fighter was the E.E Lightning. As the A.Cdre recounts "The saudis went right ahead and bought the lightning".
The logic given by the Saudis was, that the PAF operates the 104 but placed the F-5 on the top of its list, and the 104 last. So they did not trust the ranking and therefore bought the lightning. Im sure that the rumours of bribery and kickbacks in the program by the British(who know their offspring better than anyone) had nothing to do with it. But that is an example of how they think.

I could tell you many stories from TSI Dhahran that would illustrate the Saudi way of thinking even better, but why take the thread off topic?

 

[VelocuR]

Still @VCheng want to repeat same thing again & again, it seems you are paid to do this way?

 

[Bratva]

I could tell you many stories from TSI Dhahran that would illustrate the Saudi way of thinking even better, but why take the thread off topic?

Ek najam sethi ki chiriya, ek Vcheng ki chiriya

 

[Chak Bamu]

I could tell you many stories from TSI Dhahran that would illustrate the Saudi way of thinking even better, but why take the thread off topic?

Why not? Open another thread. I am sure you can find an appropriate thread title and keep things within the forum rules.

 

[VCheng]

Why not? Open another thread. I am sure you can find an appropriate thread title and keep things within the forum rules.

Nah, the chiriya prefers to keep quiet at this time.

Back to this topic, suffice to say that the Saudis would not be easily convinced to buy the JF-17, on its own, or as part of a larger project pitched to develop and aviation industry. The chances range from very slim to none, on a sunny day with fair skies.

 

[Dazzler]

Nah, the chiriya prefers to keep quiet at this time.

Back to this topic, suffice to say that the Saudis would not be easily convinced to buy the JF-17, on its own, or as part of a larger project pitched to develop and aviation industry. The chances range from very slim to none, on a sunny day with fair skies.

history tells,, use reverse psychology, they will buy

 

[VCheng]

history tells,, use reverse psychology, they will buy

That is an interesting suggestion. May be telling the Saudis that the JF-17 is so advanced that it is beyond their capabilities to make or fly, will make them want it so badly that they will pay any price to get it?

Hey, stranger things have happened. Who knows, this just might work!

 

[fatman17]

 

[Jf Thunder]

anyone knows in which bases ou JFT is present? and has it been configured yet to carry Raad?

 

[araz]

Just so that I understand your point clearly, you are talking about creating an aviation industry in Saudi Arabia based on Pakistan's experience with the JF-17? I do not care for SA, but I do about Pakistan. Getting on a bandwagon is good, but please note that complex endeavors like manufacturing aircraft are best done in a step wise fashion, with a solid educational and industrial base. How can Pakistan offer such a prospect to any country when it has not even achieved this for itself.

Bhai.
You are lost in semantics. I made a very general statement and you have taken it on a different tangent. All I am saying is that if you start simple you have the capacity to build and complete a project much more so than if you take on a complex Project to start with. Whether the help comes from Pakistan or China is besides the point . I know the capacity of the arab world and the Saudis in particular. This is the only way I can make sense of the Project and the consequent sale. Otherwise the world is an open bazaar to the saudi kingdom. It is interesting that for the first time they have looked at a aeronautical project. You can almost feel the beginnings of panic in the Kingdom some of the reasons of which I have mentioned.As to whether they can do it or not it depends on their motivation.

 

[VCheng]

Bhai.
You are lost in semantics. I made a very general statement and you have taken it on a different tangent. All I am saykng is that if you start simple you have the capacity to bjild and complete a project much more so than if you take on a comple. Project to start with. Whether the help comes from Pakistan or China is besides the point . I know the capacity of the adab world and the Saudis in particular. This is the òny way I can make sence of the Project and the consequent sale. Otherwise the world is an open bazaar to the saudi kingdom. It is interesting that for the first time they have looked at a aeronautical project. You can almost feel the beginnings of panic in the Kingdom some of the reasons of which I have mentioned.As to whethercthey can do it or not it depends on their motivation.

Of course I can see your point, but all I will say in response is let the Saudis worry about their country, for that is none of my concern, specially in this thread and its topic.

 

[araz]

Of course I can see your point, but all I will say in response is let the Saudis worry about their country, for that is none of my concern, specially in this thread and its topic.

But my post is still relevant as I am trying to make you see sense in a project which would be to the greatest benefit to Pakistan and its nascent aviation industry. Youhowever will try and take it on differsnt tangents true to your form.
Araz