JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[thrilainmanila]

The -16 already has BVR and the older one's are almost done with MLU so they'll have BVR too. The JFT was designed for Pakistan's own requirements to have a cheaper mid-tech platform, but yet capable and multi-role so that it can be produced in numbers and can be assigned daily tasks. While the -16's will have a specialized role focusing on interception and deep strike (Block 52, CFT's). But as China rapidly progressed and came up with 5th Gen technologies, which were then made smaller for the J-10 A and B, are now being added to the JFT. So in the next couple of years, the JFT (in my opinion) will be little behind the -16 block 52. But it'll be almost on par with the block 40, which in my understanding is pretty advanced for Pakistan. Majority of Indian jets (main threat for the PAF) can be handled with a plane that's similar to -16 block 40 (such as Mirage 2k, Mig variants, Jaguars, Harriers, etc. ). SU-30 and Rafale (to be), will be of higher quality and the -16's ADF and block 2's will be tasked in dealing with these.

from the sounds of it the JF-17 seems to be the type of aircraft to fill the no's add more quantity, in a similar way to what the F-7s were for the PAF back in the 80s, I really don't think the SD-10 BVR missiles are on par with anything the russians or europeans have, hopefully inshallah when the economy improves we can add western tech to the JF-17s.
from my understanding the PAF will be looking at adding more second hand F-16s into its fleet and upgrading them to MLU standard and it makes more sense then needlessly buying an unproven fighter likw the J-10, there are allot of F-16 operators out there like the egyptians who have 240 of them and the turks, i guess this makes more sense in the grand scheme of things. and by 2020 the 5th generation chinese aircraft will be around the corner.

 

[Viper0011.]

from the sounds of it the JF-17 seems to be the type of aircraft to fill the no's add more quantity, in a similar way to what the F-7s were for the PAF back in the 80s, I really don't think the SD-10 BVR missiles are on par with anything the russians or europeans have, hopefully inshallah when the economy improves we can add western tech to the JF-17s.
from my understanding the PAF will be looking at adding more second hand F-16s into its fleet and upgrading them to MLU standard and it makes more sense then needlessly buying an unproven fighter likw the J-10, there are allot of F-16 operators out there like the egyptians who have 240 of them and the turks, i guess this makes more sense in the grand scheme of things. and by 2020 the 5th generation chinese aircraft will be around the corner.

The F-7 is nothing like a JFT......and yes, from what I've read, the SD-10 is on par with AMRAAM C4-5. It should be very similar to the Russian BVR's as the seeker's design came from Agat. Buying used -16's is a much better idea for the PAF than adding a whole new plane, support structure and pilot / tactic training which will go on for years. -16's with BVR are the best option.
You guys do need to be working on some 5th gen jet. That's the need of the day!

 

[Munir]

Vcheng,

What did you eat man----you re being real now. Paf did bad thing by advertising the sale of this of this aircrft----they would have had much more success if they had kept their mouths silent over the sales issue and let the capabiliites of the aicrft do the talking---.

This would have been the prefered approach---flight displays---weapons displays---air show display and then keep mum---keeping it simple stupid---KISS.

There are some nations who would be happy with the BLK1 ---BLK1 is leaps and bound ahead of what they have now.

I agree that marketing could have been a lot better. But in the end you need a tested and trusted plane. There is no way that one would buy a few without PAF showing that it works as expected and you have working maintenance (depot level). That is now being shown. So, if you compare this with Gripen or F16... Not much difference. Those planes had more accidents. Besides that F16 was pushed through throats of many NATO allies. And you know the number of crashed planes is Belgium and Holland. Surely after that it was refined and safer but we should give JF17 some time to mature. There are so many components that need to show data first.

 

[araz]

Where funds are not the issue, the natural tendency would be to buy the best wherever possible. Making a case for the great value the JF-17 provides would be tough in such an environment, and that is why scoring a sale to a rich Middle Eastern country would be highly unlikely. Of course, sale to any country, Middle Eastern or not, will depend on either Russian approval for its engines to be re-exported, or an indigenous Chinese engine, assuming that production capacity is available or can be created.

You are absolutely correct. However for the purposes of establishment of an aviation industry you will agree that it is an excellent candidate for the job and this is how it has been pitched. We all know the middle eastern tendencies and their pockets however the need here is different. At least this is how I am trying to make sense of the scenario.
Araz

 

[Ultima Thule]

JF 17 Thunder BLock III Design

In your dream

 

[VCheng]

First test flight of the Block 7 JF-17:

(Hey, if others are posting dreamy fabrications, then why not? )

You are absolutely correct. However for the purposes of establishment of an aviation industry you will agree that it is an excellent candidate for the job and this is how it has been pitched. We all know the middle eastern tendencies and their pockets however the need here is different. At least this is how I am trying to make sense of the scenario.
Araz

Establishing an aviation industry? Excellent as the JF-17 is, it will take a lot more than assembling airframes to build an aviation industry, Sir.

Vcheng,

What did you eat man----you re being real now. Paf did bad thing by advertising the sale of this of this aircrft----they would have had much more success if they had kept their mouths silent over the sales issue and let the capabiliites of the aicrft do the talking---.

This would have been the prefered approach---flight displays---weapons displays---air show display and then keep mum---keeping it simple stupid---KISS.

There are some nations who would be happy with the BLK1 ---BLK1 is leaps and bound ahead of what they have now.

Keeping mum? We are known for a propensity towards delusions of national grandeur and premature celebrations, are we not, Sir?

 

[araz]

Establishing an aviation industry? Excellent as the JF-17 is, it will take a lot more than assembling airframes to build an aviation industry, Sir.



Keeping mum? We are known for a propensity towards delusions of national grandeur and premature celebrations, are we not, Sir? [/quote]
Vcheng.
You are not being serious and I dont want to waste my time on nonserious posters. When you do get your thinking cap on and decìde to read and respond to the post on its merit then we will talk.
Araz

 

[VCheng]

Vcheng.
You are not being serious and I dont want to waste my time on nonserious posters. When you do get your thinking cap on and decìde to read and respond to the post on its merit then we will talk.
Araz

Actually, Sir, I was trying to be brief rather than flippant.

An aviation industry is a far wider concept than an aircraft type or two. It needs a solid foundation in metallurgy and materials science, computer hardware and software, and solid management and financial resource, upon which one can hope to build an industry that can be viable. Avionics, engines, armament, and ancillary systems all need significant and sustained efforts and take decades to mature.

The JF-17 is an excellent plane for PAF's needs. No doubt about that.

But, to state that it is an excellent platform from which to spawn a whole industry is rather simplistic. Even if Pakistan had designed and manufactured the whole plane, it would be a tall order. But, I would respectfully submit that Pakistan's role is more of an assembler and systems integrator, rather than manufacturer, and therfore far short of what i needed to achieve export successes as part of a plan to establish a viable aircraft manufacturing industry.

We had that chance decades ago with the MRF, but it remained stunted as an overhauling facility rather than blossoming into something more that could have started a proper industry. Perhaps the JF-17 assembly line is being run differently? You may know better, so I am all ears at this point. And serious.

 

[nomi007]

RED CARPET WALK

 

[nomi007]

 

[araz]

Actually, Sir, I was trying to be brief rather than flippant.

An aviation industry is a far wider concept than an aircraft type or two. It needs a solid foundation in metallurgy and materials science, computer hardware and software, and solid management and financial resource, upon which one can hope to build an industry that can be viable. Avionics, engines, armament, and ancillary systems all need significant and sustained efforts and take decades to mature.

The JF-17 is an excellent plane for PAF's needs. No doubt about that.

But, to state that it is an excellent platform from which to spawn a whole industry is rather simplistic. Even if Pakistan had designed and manufactured the whole plane, it would be a tall order. But, I would respectfully submit that Pakistan's role is more of an assembler and systems integrator, rather than manufacturer, and therfore far short of what i needed to achieve export successes as part of a plan to establish a viable aircraft manufacturing industry.

We had that chance decades ago with the MRF, but it remained stunted as an overhauling facility rather than blossoming into something more that could have started a proper industry. Perhaps the JF-17 assembly line is being run differently? You may know better, so I am all ears at this point. And serious.

Sir Vcheng
Sorry for being abrupt which is normally not my way.
My point is every big step has to start somewhere. No one in their right mind will establish an aviation industry overnight. But you have to start somewhere. If you are going to start you need to take on a project which is simple and effective which is why PAF took a risk averse route for the JFT. I propose the same methodology transplanted in Saudi. They now have enough educated population and watching a bird that you have a part in building is every boys fancy.
The problem with the western technology is it is far too advanced for them to tackle as of now. Perhaps ten years from now might not be so difficult. The infrastructure and other ancillary industries will spring out once there is a market and an opportunity. I dont see them making engines for another 3 decades but the way technology is advancing they need to:
A) Get on the band wagon sometime.
B) Take on a project which is simple and grow with it.
C) From the rulers point of view also they need to establish industrial base as they have people who dont have jobs to go to and an empty mind is the Chained ones playground.
You would be surprised at how much poverty there is hidden under the carpet. Figures as high as 30 per cent are being quoted. From that point of view as well it makes sense to latch on to a project with tangible results not an unfeasible outcome.
Once they achieve those they can move on and make their own changes as their industrial base develops and diversifies.The other option is to keep buying from the West with strings and no certain benefit to their nation(except a few fat cats). However even from the fat cats perspective there is some halal money to be made taking the former route.
The resources generated for PAF would be wonderful and certain more adventurous options which are currently restrained due to lack of investment can be utilized.
My 2 paisas worth.
Feel free to dissect.
Araz

 

[My-Analogous]

We are in the middle of July and still we didn't have block 2 pictures. When we induct the block 2?

 

[VelocuR]

We are in the middle of July and still we didn't have block 2 pictures. When we induct the block 2?

Yes, it is coming on between September or October or December of this year. Please let PAF take their time, not too high expectation.

 

[Bilal.]

The JFT nose cone size seems as big if not bigger than F-16.

 

[VCheng]

Sir Vcheng
Sorry for being abrupt which is normally not my way.
My point is every big step has to start somewhere. No one in their right mind will establish an aviation industry overnight. But you have to start somewhere. If you are going to start you need to take on a project which is simple and effective which is why PAF took a risk averse route for the JFT. I propose the same methodology transplanted in Saudi. They now have enough educated population and watching a bird that you have a part in building is every boys fancy.
The problem with the western technology is it is far too advanced for them to tackle as of now. Perhaps ten years from now might not be so difficult. The infrastructure and other ancillary industries will spring out once there is a market and an opportunity. I dont see them making engines for another 3 decades but the way technology is advancing they need to:
A) Get on the band wagon sometime.
B) Take on a project which is simple and grow with it.
C) From the rulers point of view also they need to establish industrial base as they have people who dont have jobs to go to and an empty mind is the Chained ones playground.
You would be surprised at how much poverty there is hidden under the carpet. Figures as high as 30 per cent are being quoted. From that point of view as well it makes sense to latch on to a project with tangible results not an unfeasible outcome.
Once they achieve those they can move on and make their own changes as their industrial base develops and diversifies.The other option is to keep buying from the West with strings and no certain benefit to their nation(except a few fat cats). However even from the fat cats perspective there is some halal money to be made taking the former route.
The resources generated for PAF would be wonderful and certain more adventurous options which are currently restrained due to lack of investment can be utilized.
My 2 paisas worth.
Feel free to dissect.
Araz

Just so that I understand your point clearly, you are talking about creating an aviation industry in Saudi Arabia based on Pakistan's experience with the JF-17? I do not care for SA, but I do about Pakistan. Getting on a bandwagon is good, but please note that complex endeavors like manufacturing aircraft are best done in a step wise fashion, with a solid educational and industrial base. How can Pakistan offer such a prospect to any country when it has not even achieved this for itself?

Besides, think about it with a Saudi hat or rather kifaya, on the head. Who would you rather choose as a partner if you wanted to establish an aviation industry? May be we can take this discussion elsewhere, unless your answer uses the JF-17 as the best example possible.