JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[Chak Bamu]

Just my thoughts, now that PAF has inducted an F-16 squadron, I feel that ther woul be no induction of Block 2, PAc would upgrade all block 1's to block 2 level, whereas developmental work on block 3 will continue, and that is what PAF will induct in about a years time with some significant performance enhancing additions, physical appearance won't change much except for the IFR.

Fair guess, but you are ignoring the air-frame which was inaugurated as start of manufacturing for Block II. What was that, I wonder?

 

[Munir]

Just my thoughts, now that PAF has inducted an F-16 squadron, I feel that ther woul be no induction of Block 2, PAc would upgrade all block 1's to block 2 level, whereas developmental work on block 3 will continue, and that is what PAF will induct in about a years time with some significant performance enhancing additions, physical appearance won't change much except for the IFR.

Not entirely correct but good direction. The number of to be replaced planes is 150-250. We cannot do that fast enough. F16's were cheapest buy ever. Certainly if you know the capabilities after the upgrade... These planes do not need years of introdution. We have the infrastructure, engineers and pilots. Big bang it is. So replacing here and there a f7p squadron is best solution. The f7p are not having huge flight hours and nor are they fitting the bvr era. We have used them to have good pilots but now the worst indian planes have better electronics and weapons. So f7pg will do finefor next 5years but f7p will leave us faster then most would expect.


The bigger issue is a2g. The mirages are upgraded and good assets but getting older and older. Jf17 fills the same arena but somehow j10b, aka fc20, is more suited due to the delta wing (higher load). But.... J10a was a2a only. And rhe ne5 needs 2 years to get enough a2g capabilities. Or.... We put extra effort in improving jf17 block 2... And that was leaked in the form of stronger wing structure... One must read between the lines. With russia finally delivered rd93ma for testing on two block1 pakistani jf17's that seeks to have move on. As you know, higher load needs more thrust. So mow you might see the pieces of the puzzle.

 

[slapshot]

The bigger issue is a2g. The mirages are upgraded and good assets but getting older and older. Jf17 fills the same arena but somehow j10b, aka fc20, is more suited due to the delta wing (higher load). But.... J10a was a2a only. And rhe ne5 needs 2 years to get enough a2g capabilities. Or.... We put extra effort in improving jf17 block 2... And that was leaked in the form of stronger wing structure... One must read between the lines. With russia finally delivered rd93ma for testing on two block1 pakistani jf17's that seeks to have move on. As you know, higher load needs more thrust. So mow you might see the pieces of the puzzle.

Wondering if PAF would ever try to modify thunder for a dedicated role. For example what Americans did with F-16 XL. It was cranked delta wing single engine jet for heavy payload, long range fighter. It finally lost to F-15 and I think two prototypes are still active with NASA for testing. It will be wishful thinking but a delta version of thunder with powerful engine may get us a decent option for A2G and naval role

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Wondering if PAF would ever try to modify thunder for a dedicated role. For example what Americans did with F-16 XL. It was cranked delta wing single engine jet for heavy payload, long range fighter. It finally lost to F-15 and I think two prototypes are still active with NASA for testing. It will be wishful thinking but a delta version of thunder with powerful engine may get us a decent option for A2G and naval role

No i dont think so that PAF will ever invest in JF17 Delta or have in plan. The overall project life cycle of JF17 will be upto proposed Block-3 configuration. After that no more up gradation will be feasible.

By default Delta wing plan design is cost effective. Simpler to design and manufacture. Both design have pro's and con's. Look at Indian LCA. The purchased Mirage-2000 in 80's, their Air force thought it to be meeting their requirement so LCA is just a copy of Mirage design.

OTOH PAF is operating Mirages since 60's. They also inducted F16s in 80's. Love that design and decided in favor of F16 like design for Thunder.
Now its logical that who will have been more knowledgeable then PAF when it comes to comparison of both these design methodologies?

So i dont think in future also PAF will choose Delta wing.

 

[slapshot]

No i dont think so that PAF will ever invest in JF17 Delta or have in plan. The overall project life cycle of JF17 will be upto proposed Block-3 configuration. After that no more up gradation will be feasible.

By default Delta wing plan design is cost effective. Simpler to design and manufacture. Both design have pro's and con's. Look at Indian LCA. The purchased Mirage-2000 in 80's, their Air force thought it to be meeting their requirement so LCA is just a copy of Mirage design.

OTOH PAF is operating Mirages since 60's. They also inducted F16s in 80's. Love that design and decided in favor of F16 like design for Thunder.
Now its logical that who will have been more knowledgeable then PAF when it comes to comparison of both these design methodologies?

So i dont think in future also PAF will choose Delta wing.

I don't think so its about what PAF like and what they don't. Thunder is a multi role jet and they choose the configuration meeting the profile. As Munir mentioned delta provides the ability to carry more load and provides more lift. For dedicated naval or deep strike missions delta design is more beneficial. PAF may not choose to modify JF-17 but it doesn't mean they hate delta wing jets. BTW they don't have to induct, modification can be done just for the sake of research and to explore the new possibilities. Americans tried several modifications on F-16 and those prototypes are still helping them with scientific research.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

I don't think so its about what PAF like and what they don't. Thunder is a multi role jet and they choose the configuration meeting the profile. As Munir mentioned delta provides the ability to carry more load and provides more lift. For dedicated naval or deep strike missions delta design is more beneficial. PAF may not choose to modify JF-17 but it doesn't mean they hate delta wing jets. BTW they don't have to induct, modification can be done just for the sake of research and to explore the new possibilities. Americans tried several modifications on F-16 and those prototypes are still helping them with scientific research.

Sir everything boils down to $$$.

I also want to see my country doing R & D in every field but then priorities come into play. You have to see from your pocket point of view.
My counter argument will be..
What about J10B then? Its Delta+Canards. Can perform all those missions which you have mentioned in your post. Would it be wise to purchase it or start developing our own Delta wing concept?
If you purpose delta wing UAV development in house, i am with you. But a 4+ Generation plane again.. no it doesn't make sense.

 

[slapshot]

Sir everything boils down to $$$.

I also want to see my country doing R & D in every field but then priorities come into play. You have to see from your pocket point of view.
My counter argument will be..
What about J10B then? Its Delta+Canards. Can perform all those missions which you have mentioned in your post. Would it be wise to purchase it or start developing our own Delta wing concept?
If you purpose delta wing UAV development in house, i am with you. But a 4+ Generation plane again.. no it doesn't make sense.

Dear not everything is about induction. I made it clear already. If we want to setup aviation industry then we will have to do RND. The chances of getting J10 are already bleak since PAF seems more focused on induction of more F-16s.

 

[Munir]

Wondering if PAF would ever try to modify thunder for a dedicated role. For example what Americans did with F-16 XL. It was cranked delta wing single engine jet for heavy payload, long range fighter. It finally lost to F-15 and I think two prototypes are still active with NASA for testing. It will be wishful thinking but a delta version of thunder with powerful engine may get us a decent option for A2G and naval role

Maybe you now will understand that fc20 is f16XL for us... Take JF17 (all avionics), bigger engine, add delta AND canards... Voila.

 

[SQ8]

Maybe you now will understand that fc20 is f16XL for us... Take JF17 (all avionics), bigger engine, add delta AND canards... Voila.

Not exactly the best analogy. The FC-20 does not have the payload capacity increase with range that should be expected. Nor does the FC-20 bring the volume increase as the XL did to the standard F-16.

With the changing timeline and dynamics, the FC-20 only brings an incremental capability that is really not needed as that niche can be filled easily by the Block-3 and the F-16s.
Its time to ditch this project and move onto the 5th generation. The PAF has always looked for the cutting edge, and the FC-20 does not give you that.

 

[HRK]

Maybe you now will understand that fc20 is f16XL for us... Take JF17 (all avionics), bigger engine, add delta AND canards... Voila.

this might be an off topic query.

PAF is reluctant in the induction of J-10B/FC-20, but your post suggest it as the more suitable replacement of Mirag in Naval role (need of PN) .... while JF-17 is tailormade for the requirements of PAF & we all know that support to Naval Forces is not one of the prime tasks of PAF (additional responsibility) ... so in short is this the indication of 'less' coordination b/w the two arms services & potential shortfall of threat assessment.

 

[Munir]

Not exactly the best analogy. The FC-20 does not have the payload capacity increase with range that should be expected. Nor does the FC-20 bring the volume increase as the XL did to the standard F-16.

With the changing timeline and dynamics, the FC-20 only brings an incremental capability that is really not needed as that niche can be filled easily by the Block-3 and the F-16s.
Its time to ditch this project and move onto the 5th generation. The PAF has always looked for the cutting edge, and the FC-20 does not give you that.

I do not think you need the number of weapons as we see on e.q. J11/MKI/F15 but we do need the load weight which is higher... And since you have a delta the wingloading remains low. So if you can get up there with 2-4 decent weapons you can do the job just fine. You idea of incremental capability is a bit out of our context. Let me ask you the question... In which scenario do you need more then you would get with Fc20? Not sarcastic, not ironic but just a direct question.

 

[SQ8]

I do not think you need the number of weapons as we see on e.q. J11/MKI/F15 but we do need the load weight which is higher... And since you have a delta the wingloading remains low. So if you can get up there with 2-4 decent weapons you can do the job just fine. You idea of incremental capability is a bit out of our context. Let me ask you the question... In which scenario do you need more then you would get with Fc20? Not sarcastic, not ironic but just a direct question.

What do you intend to do with the load weight if you cannot utilize it? Sure, you may sling some sort of airborne Babur sized missile on it but really what is point if you can lift 10000 kg but only can carry four things to make that weight?

The scenario's of today have little that is not accomplished by the existing plans for the F-16s and the JF-17s. The scenarios of tomorrow make the FC-20 irrelevant. You dont need a slightly bigger JF-17(in your words). You need a new capability that matches or trumps that of the opposition. Sadly, you have funds for neither.

 

[slapshot]

What do you intend to do with the load weight if you cannot utilize it? Sure, you may sling some sort of airborne Babur sized missile on it but really what is point if you can lift 10000 kg but only can carry four things to make that weight?

The scenario's of today have little that is not accomplished by the existing plans for the F-16s and the JF-17s. The scenarios of tomorrow make the FC-20 irrelevant. You dont need a slightly bigger JF-17(in your words). You need a new capability that matches or trumps that of the opposition. Sadly, you have funds for neither.

Considering the recent development from Russia don't you think we can try to acquire J11s for such roles? Twin engine is always preferred for naval role. China may help us with our money constraints I hope

 

[Bilal.]

@Oscar, we also need a replacement of our fast ageing mirages and while JF-17 is a good replacement for A-5 and F-7 in terms of added performance, it does not seem to be the same for mirages specially the upgraded ones.

 

[SQ8]

Considering the recent development from Russia don't you think we can try to acquire J11s for such roles? Twin engine is always preferred for naval role. China may help us with our money constraints I hope

They are willing to provide you soft loans any day of the week. But there is something known as respect which the PAF wants to maintain vis-a-vis the Chinese and refuses to take more soft loans.

Twin engines are great over water, but even the Norwegians were happy using the F-16 AGM-119 combo as a ASW system.
What matters is range, and the Sea target detection capability. The ideal weapon system is the C-802 paired with a CM-400. Preferably timed with the strike, with the C-802 released earlier while the CM-400 is released later to essentially have both systems "arriving" within similar time frames.

The issue is that the Navy needs an aircraft that can provide escort for its long range maritime surveillance assets or BARCAP for its surface assets. The JF-17 cannot provide the loiter capability needed for the Navy's key needs and so the issue of the J-11s keeps popping up. But in a nutshell, the J-11s are an expense that is just too much and too frivolous in our current economic conditions.

A better aircraft for the role is the CFT equipped F-16 which is ready to be used in that role by UAE and Turkey.