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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

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Link please.
新加坡航展_视频频道_凤凰网

It is in Chinese. And he also mention JF-17 only offer to customer who can afford it. Which i think is the main obstacle why JF-17 for so long has not backed any export deal. Customer who think they can free loan from China will be disappointed. China is not the same old soviet union who just gives out freebies to entice allies of partner.

They want you to pay real cash or valuable items to get these jet fighter.
 
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Jf-17 Block 2
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Yes, of course that is the correct strategy to pursue, but it seems to have had zero success thus far. May be it will take off soon, no pun intended.
Bhai.
A nascent nation in its infancy with no significant aeronautical accomplishments other than minor fiddling with flight designs wants to sell something that has turned out to be an unexpectedly good platform
We are still trying to fiddle around with it to give us the optimum setup and armaments being added. All said and done it is a great achievement by Pakistan. Ihave alzo come across your comments about envine manufacturing. I did disregard it at the time as I thought if was more of point scorinv than a realistic approach. Consider that even Volvo manjfacturez the engines of Saab under licence from P&W.This inspite of their illustrious career and aviation history.Would you say that even their aviation history should not be recognised or what is good for the Gripen is not good for the JFT. Realistically all that I see PAF doing is getting overhauling and minor parts manufacturing rights from whoever they finally get their uprated engines from. We neither have the resources or ghe metallurvical knowhow to indulge in this luxury.
F35 is also funded by many



Thank you for your useless comments and get well soon
Bhai.
It is always nice to be courteous rather than blunt , offensive or rude. These are not the signs of a gentleman. Irrelevavance should simply be pointed out by arguments. For me Vcheng is already on a loosing track and I stand to win a "tokra " of mithai from Ambala once JFT makes a sale.
For what it is worth an argument about future sales is a useless topic to debate as no one knows when it will materialise m So lets wait and see.
Araz
 
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Bhai.
A nascent nation in its infancy with no significant aeronautical accomplishments other than minor fiddling with flight designs wants to sell something that has turned out to be an unexpectedly good platform
We are still trying to fiddle around with it to give us the optimum setup and armaments being added. All odxthoodoo eeeeeeewwaeeewa

Bhai.
It is always nice to be courteous rather than blunt , offensive or rude. These are not the signs of a gentleman. Irrelevavance should simply be pointed out by arguments. For me Vcheng is already on a loosing track and I stand to win a "tokra " of mithai from Ambala once JFT makes a sale.
For what it is worth an argument about future sales is a useless topic to debate as no one knows when it will materialise m So lets wait and see.
Araz

Your tokra from Ambala will be ready and waiting to be delivered once the sale happens, Sir. :D
 
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Link please.

I wish I had the time for a full translation, but a summary would have to suffice. Basically a member from CJDBY, Yankee, interviewed the Spokesperson from AVIC. The interviewer actually mentioned the designation WS-13, so there is no ambiguity regarding the actual engine. However, the Spokesperson didn't make it clear what exactly "ready" entails (first regiment equipping the engine or fully supplanting the RD-93s), so we can be cautiously optimistic about it. Given the fact that AVIC is also trying to push J-31 as an export fighter, WS-13 better be reliable within the next two years. I think that the engine bottleneck is one of the major export hurdles for the JF-17. Once the domestic engine is ready, J-31 will be a very attractive export option if they could keep the costs down.
 
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in 2011 China provide $ 851 million loan @ 2% annual rate for 50 JF-17 which translate into $ 17 million price for single JF-17.
View attachment 16715

Pakistan should talk to China that we will going to pay them now and don't add INTEREST on it. Also GoP should feel shame that they were not able to provide PAC just $750 Millions for 5 years to produce 50 JF-17s block-II. I am sure GoP had enough money to give to PAC to manufacture about 100 Super Mushak, 50 K-8 Block-Is and 100 JF-17s Block-Is in five years time but they didn't give it.

How much for Block-IIs? INSHA ALLAH, if GoP provide funds then PAC will produce at least 100 for PAF and for other countries as well. But PAC and CAC should try to market it to South America and Africa as well.
 
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China is now testing the WS-13 engine on JF-17, and it is expected to be commissioned by 2016.

Sorry about the non-English source, but it is the semi-official source.

枭龙现身新加坡航展 中航技:2年内将用国发_军事_环球网


 [Global Network reports special correspondent Gaucho] 2014 Singapore Airshow February 11 opening, the Air China Industry's CATIC and AVIC International exhibition site shows a single-seat, two-seater "Fierce Dragon" fighter, L-15 advanced trainer aircraft, K-8 trainer aircraft, helicopter straight -9 "pterodactyl" and SN-209 unmanned aerial vehicles and other military aircraft models, causing concern to the industry.

  In this air show, due to participate in the Pakistani military and Pakistan jointly developed "JF-17" Fierce Dragon fighter naturally became the focus of everyone, we all know, the "Fierce Dragon" fighter engine currently selected is 俄罗斯克利莫Cardiff RD-93 engines, it is learned, Russia and China have already begun to increase the provision of thrust type RD-93 engine (8.3 tons to 9 tons from the original raise) negotiations as early as 2005, but the transaction was rumored obstruction to India, despite the subsequent JF-17 "Fierce Dragon" fighter production process more smoothly, but there will be a message appears Russian RD-93 engine supply problems from time to time came.

  In response to the global network special correspondent on the domestic engine when fitted to the outlet in the "Fierce Dragon" on time, CATIC vice president Liu replied: "Soon, virtually the entire trial, test, test work has been in full swing domestic engine The ongoing, it should be said that in 1-2 years will get a satisfactory answer. " This shows that domestic turbofan -13 (WS-13) medium-thrust turbofan aeroengine equipment is expected in 1-2 years "Fierce Dragon" fighter, thus clearing one of the largest technical aspects of a large number of export "Fierce Dragon" fighter's barriers and are likely to further reduce the "Fierce Dragon" costs.



  Also, in answer to what the state "Fierce Dragon" purchase intention when Liu said, in addition to Pakistan, there are Egypt, Bangladesh and West Asia, Central Asia, and even some countries in the Americas have intent to purchase.(Acknowledgement: large military)
 
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Confirmed resource from CATIC that Domestic WS13 engine will be ready for operation before the end of year 2015.
 
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Confirmed resource from CATIC that Domestic WS13 engine will be ready for operation before the end of year 2015.


Basic Ws-13 or the upgraded ws-13a with upto 100kn thrust as reported earlier?
 
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Basic Ws-13 or the upgraded ws-13a with upto 100kn thrust as reported earlier?
I think it will be WS13 the basic version, WS13A is a high bypass ratio fan derivative engine for medium range transporter.
 
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PRC Defense Industry Pushes to Expand Export Markets
Singapore Air Show » 2014
by Reuben Johnson

AVIC’s display at the Aviation Expo China show included this scale model of the company’s J-31/Project 310. It’s designed to be marketed as China’s stealthy export competitor to Lockheed’s F-35.
February 11, 2014, 4:15 AM

The past two years have seen a number of developments with the military aircraft programs of the People’s Republic of China’s aerospace industry. The twofold focus of these efforts has been to expand the export portfolio for PRC-made weapon systems, while at the same time pushing the development of indigenous programs that would reduce Chinese dependence on foreign (mostly Russian) critical technologies and subsystems–although this could be a rocky road if it ends up competing directly with Russian industry in export markets.

The results on both scores have been mixed. The message coming from the central government in Beijing continues to be that the PRC’s industry has to evolve from the previous ratio in which 80 percent or more of all defense industrial production was purchased by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) to one in which that percentage drops in favor of an increase in foreign orders.

Aviation Industry Corporation of China (Avic), the mammoth state-owned conglomerate that controls almost all of the PRC’s aerospace enterprises, is the largest amalgamation of its kind in the world and has–at any one time–more military aircraft programs in development than the rest of the world’s industries combined.

However, Avic and the other branches of China’s defense industrial sector suffer from the fact that they have no commercial products being sold around the world that can generate income to support the number of facilities and the cadre of engineering talent that is needed to maintain a military aircraft industry.

“Boeing in the U.S. can afford to build fighters because it has a much larger airline aircraft business that forms the basis for the company’s financial bottom line,” explained a U.S.-based defense analyst. “Dassault in France can have a fighter program like the Rafale because they have a highly successful business jet division.

The Eurofighter partner companies all have a stake in Airbus and other commercial ventures, and so on, but China has no such ‘financial relief valve’ for its industry.”

In addition to the PRC’s aerospace sector suffering from paying a huge bill every year to maintain a large number of military aerospace programs, the PRC’s onerous security regime allows for very little interaction between the civil and military industrial sectors. This has not permitted Avic and the other PRC defense industrial groupings to benefit from innovations developed in the commercial world.

One of the leading PLA theoretical journals, the General Armament Department’s Journal of the Academy of Equipment, published an article earlier this year that highlighted faults in the procurement system in the PRC, saying it has very “weak integration” (集成整合能力较弱 - jicheng zhenghe nengli jiao ruo) and inadequate “information sharing between military and civilian enterprises,” and that China’s defense innovation system is less developed than in other nations because of the “absence of incentives for communication and cooperation between the civil and defense industries.”

Export-Only Programs
Avic’s answer to try to address the issue of the imbalance between PLA orders and export orders is to continue to develop a new generation of export-only weapon systems that can compete with U.S. and European firms in foreign markets. Foremost among these is the new J-31/Project 310 fighter, which has been developed at the Shenyang Aerospace Corp. (SAC) in Liaoning province.

Now being labeled as the “advanced fighter concept,” Avic representatives at September’s Aviation Expo China held in Beijing stated that the J-31 is a stealthy platform that is “intended to compete with the [Lockheed Martin] F-35 program,” and that Chinese industry ideally would like to “develop the aircraft together with a foreign partner.”

These statements were a near carbon-copy of those delivered that same week by a senior PLA commentator, Admiral Zhang Zhaozhong. The admiral told the state-run People’s Daily newspaper that the J-31 was never built with an application for the PLA in mind and also that the aircraft would not be offered in a carrier-capable variant for the PLA Navy’s aviation arm (PLAN AF).

The PRC’s other major fighter producer, Chengdu Aerospace Corp. (CAC) in Sichuan Province, is continuing to improve on Avic’s one successful export fighter program, the JF-17/FC-1, which is being built in cooperation with the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra, Pakistan. CAC is in the process of working on a Block 3 variant of the aircraft that will address issues of strengthening certain elements of the aircraft structure and improvements in the avionics suite.

During the Dubai Air Show in November 2013 officials from the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the JF-17 program office in Islamabad stated that the Block 3 airplane was at this point a design concept with a set of mission requirements but that “no decisions have been made about the choice for changing out any of on-board systems for the aircraft.”

The JF-17 will also now be produced in a two-seat version, but the PAF officials at Dubai stated that the two-seat aircraft is being developed as a result of interest from potential export customers in having a trainer variant and not to address any requirements for Pakistan. The PAF is addressing almost all of the training needs by using simulators and will continue to build single-seat aircraft.

Another program that Avic has been promoting for export is the Hongdu L-15 jet trainer, similar in design to the Russian Yakovlev Yak-130 but powered by the Ukrainian-made Ivchenko/Progress AI-222-25 jet engine.

The PLAAF has placed a small order for the aircraft but for now the main focus of the program’s marketing executives (from Avic’s sales arm, the China Aero Technology Import-Export Corp.–Catic) has been on export sales. An unconfirmed sale has reportedly been made “to an African nation” and Catic has also been offering the aircraft to prospective customers in South America.

There have also been consistent statements by both Pakistani and Catic officials of a planned sale for 36 of the other leading Chengdu program, the J-10, but there has been a series of delays due to economic conditions in Pakistan. Avic officials in the past have also questioned whether Pakistan’s interest in the J-10 is sincere or if Islamabad is “simply trying to play the ‘China card’–frightening the U.S. with the [the] specter of a J-10 export sale in an effort to get Washington to offer up more free F-16s.”

The J-10 has also been briefed to Peru and other South American nations, as well as to potential customers in the Middle East.

Technology Barriers
Despite the success that Avic may be having with these aircraft sales abroad, the PRC’s aerospace sector remains dependent upon Russia and Ukraine to supply engines for all of these programs. The J-31 is powered by two of the same RD-93 engine that is fitted in the JF-17 in a single-engine installation. The J-10 uses a special variant of the Sukhoi Su-27 engine designed to fit this aircraft, designated the AL-31FN and designed and produced by the Salyut plant in Moscow.

For the past several years Avic’s jet engine division has been telling its Russian and Ukrainian suppliers of plans to replace their engines with indigenous Chinese designs but still today there is little progress in this area. Unofficial reports in the PRC state that Chinese designs have suffered from blades in the engine hot sections warping during high-g maneuvers conducted during flight test and other failures. “These are signs of Avic still not having the ability to create and machine alloys that can endure the sustained high temperatures produced by a jet engine’s combustion cycle,” said one Russian engineer.

In November 2012 during Air Show China Avic did finally display its Minshan engine–the announced replacement for the Ivchenko/Progress AI-222-25–but Ukrainian representatives stated that it has inferior performance and higher fuel consumption than their model. They also commented that the full-authority digital engine control (Fadec) unit on the Minshan “looks several times larger than it needs to be for an engine of this size and demonstrates a lack of expertise in this area.” Not surprisingly, Chinese industry also continues to shop abroad for this and other technologies to try to compensate for the lack of progress in several disciplines.

For these and other reasons, Chinese representatives state that there is no fixed calendar date for their industry to stop using foreign-made engines. Estimates range to five years or more into the future and some Russian specialists state that they believe it could be as long as another decade.

This is perhaps where the interests of Chinese and Russian industry will collide in the future. If Avic continues to seek more export markets it will inevitably collide with the Russians in foreign competitions–at which time Russian industry will have to decide if it wants to keep supplying engines to a nation that can now displace it in foreign markets.

Tags: Pakistan Air ForcePakistanHongdu L-15Aviation Industry Corporation of ChinaPakistan Aeronautical ComplexAviationFighter aircraftAerospaceTransportChina Aviation Industry Corporation IPL-12
 
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Interesting Article over all. Engines development, dependence and to become partially or fully independent 5-10 years is critical for various programs.

@Yzd Khalifa

Now being labeled as the “advanced fighter concept,” Avic representatives at September’s Aviation Expo China held in Beijing stated that the J-31 is a stealthy platform that is “intended to compete with the [Lockheed Martin] F-35 program,” and that Chinese industry ideally would like to “develop the aircraft together with a foreign partner.
 
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