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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

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Hi,

Sacrifice without a direction and a positive result does not amount to anything. Even though the sacrifices given by the pak military are tremendous----their true worth has been diluted by the lack of support and commitment from the civilian side.

All the military sacrifices have been rolled over in dirt by the pakistani civilians who had cared less to what to support and what to protect in the last 12 years.

Neither did the military recognize the true threat in its initial stages and nor did the pak civilians---. Even though the military started seeing the true face of the enemy earlier---the pak civilians to this day are hiding their heads in sand.

When the paks say that they have sacrificed---well they have sacrificed not willingly but have been forced into sacrifice.

It is just like fasting---you get up willingly to fast in the morning and you do so with fervor---but otoh---you are forced into fasting----because the 'righteous brigade ' would beat you up.

What pak military has lacked is in changing gears and changing directions in mid-stride. They did not want to believe that the others would turn on them----even though the others were slaughtering them like animals.

Pak military should have neutralized all the foreigners coming into pakistan from tora bora and chaman---. Foreigners means---pakistani radicals---arab, chechen, and other nationaliities---excluding the afghans.

I include pakistani radicals---because they don't have a home they call a nation.

Just like Indira Gandhi had predicted years ago---the powers to be in pakistani military general staff did not have the back bone to take up the charge---.

This battle had multiple fronts---the most important ones were those of propaganda----propaganda at the home front---propaganda on the foreign ie U S media front prpaganda in the fata NWFP baluchistan front.

The problem with the civilians is that to get into power---they also instigated insurgency and supported it as well. Like in case of Bugti's demise. Both the people's party and N league stirred up the passion for insurgency by continuously bringing up the Bugti demise issue up to the front to creat and cause agitation to topple the govt.

Like in case of drone strikes---Imran Khan says---if the relatives are killed they will retaliate---thus instigating insurgency---. They should have been saying---don't give refuge to the terrorists---if you doo---you are a part of them and you will be taken out.

The problem is that the govt has been toppled---but the fire that has been started to get to that place is burning down the house as well.
 
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PAF leaders have always been smart to use whatever they have in the best possible ways, no doubt about that, as long as they do not believe self-induced delusions of grandeur.

Are there any funds available to acquire the J-10Bs?
More importantly is there a need to have an additional platform in the current regional scenario. Its all fine for us to sing the praises of J10B but why do we need it?
Araz
 
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More importantly is there a need to have an additional platform in the current regional scenario. Its all fine for us to sing the praises of J10B but why do we need it?
Araz

That is a great point. It depends on the philosophy that PAF wants to implement. One can quite rightly argue that a mainly defensive posture aided by long range nuclear capability is all that is needed, and that J10B's role in such a strategy may not be needed at all.
 
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I think the strategy is pretty simplistic.

If India gets Rafale then PAF gets FC20 within a year (if t<=2016)
If India delays introduction then PAF invests some in J31 but the large part of the funds are used for JF17 improvements

No investment in F16
 
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Its all fine for us to sing the praises of J10B but why do we need it?

No.. with IFR on JFT, no need of J-10.
At maximum, buy old mirage-2K of UAE and end of the story.
 
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I think the strategy is pretty simplistic.

If India gets Rafale then PAF gets FC20 within a year (if t<=2016)
If India delays introduction then PAF invests some in J31 but the large part of the funds are used for JF17 improvements

No investment in F16
Munir
I fully agree wuth your post barring the last sentence.I still think we need to beef up our defences against the MKIs that IAF has even if the Rafale does not happen. The most economical way to do so would be the 16s both new and MLUs preferably the latter. With the input from J10 and even the J 20 filtering down to JFT we really need to rethink our need for the J10. Because of the existing infrastructure for the 16s and possible utilization of the US Funds it is still a viable and logical solution. The US if it wants to hinder us does not need to stop the spares of the plane. Stop our produce coming into US would be far more devastating than stopping military spares.
Araz
 
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I think the strategy is pretty simplistic.

If India gets Rafale then PAF gets FC20 within a year (if t<=2016)
If India delays introduction then PAF invests some in J31 but the large part of the funds are used for JF17 improvements

No investment in F16

I don't know about that, considering that many high ranking officials in the air force still prefer US weaponry. Besides, the F-16 has proven it's mettle in the PAF, and has gone above and beyond PAF expectations. Despite future sanctions worries, PAF may still opt for more F-16s and rely on Turkey for spares and upgrades like it did secretly during the sanctions era.

Having said that, until block-3, the JF-17 will be relied upon in a primarily bomber role, like it is now during insurgency operations.
 
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Munir
I fully agree wuth your post barring the last sentence.I still think we need to beef up our defences against the MKIs that IAF has even if the Rafale does not happen. The most economical way to do so would be the 16s both new and MLUs preferably the latter. With the input from J10 and even the J 20 filtering down to JFT we really need to rethink our need for the J10. Because of the existing infrastructure for the 16s and possible utilization of the US Funds it is still a viable and logical solution. The US if it wants to hinder us does not need to stop the spares of the plane. Stop our produce coming into US would be far more devastating than stopping military spares.
Araz

I fully understand your comment. The reason I added is:

-negative sentiment inside Pakistan/PAF on US products in general
-no internal funds
-US funds less likely (are even now used to influence internal policies!)
-expecting less leverage to get items after Afghanistan is left alone (shifting policy USA)
-usage F16 against India can be limited during wartime
-No next MLU available nor able to get any high tech items directly
-Operational costs getting higher and higher

-Input into JF17 will get maybe external orders and cash
-input on JF17 possible in all fields
-lot lower costs (1/3-1/5)
-No political strings and less likely financial issues

MKI is a nice plane, no doubt. JF17 can handle the MKI in the same way as out F16 can do. Maybe even better cause there is input in JF17 program from J10/FC20/J20 and even J31.
 
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I don't know about that, considering that many high ranking officials in the air force still prefer US weaponry. Besides, the F-16 has proven it's mettle in the PAF, and has gone above and beyond PAF expectations. Despite future sanctions worries, PAF may still opt for more F-16s and rely on Turkey for spares and upgrades like it did secretly during the sanctions era.

Having said that, until block-3, the JF-17 will be relied upon in a primarily bomber role, like it is now during insurgency operations.

I think that those who fly the Block 52 know that is is a superb machine, yet they know the price and the risks. The F16A did nice job against Russians but we had to learn to master it (and the AIM9!). The C/D is a much better machine but how sure can we be if we know that we have sealed components like every other user and the opponent might get some codes or jamming signals... Can you really trust anyone?
 
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Hi,

It is good to be nationalistic---but when poster start lying on matters of defence---that is being deceptive to the nation.

Munir----your post as always is full of bluster and BS----SU 30 has been flying in indian colors for 13 + years---with a full load of BVR missiles.

JF 17 still does not have a fully operational aircraft with a fully operational and deployed SD10's.

Just like I told you guys around 5 years ago---it will take 8 to 10 years for the JF 17 to mature----and that was basically for the ground strike capability---because that is what the PAF has.

Once the Sd 10 is fully developed and tactically deployed in large numbers, it would take another 4-5 years for PAF to come up with a tactics and operational manual and guidance for the BVR missile and engagement.

Ethically---how can you compare an aircraft system that is not even in partial deployment to the one in full fledged operation for over a decade.

Guy----you are just winging it right and left---. Seems like more of you guys have learnt---that it is better to lie about your capabilities and be cheered by the crowd rather than be truthfull and be real.


As for PAF----it has no where to go now. It signed its destiny in 2005 with the earthquake in kashmir. It is broke---it is penniless---it cannot even afford to buy the cheapest aircraft in the industry---.

This smart air force that you people are bragging is the same corparation that lost most of its surveillance assets on the ground to terrorist attacks.
 
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Hi,

It is good to be nationalistic---but when poster start lying on matters of defence---that is being deceptive to the nation.

Munir----your post as always is full of bluster and BS----SU 30 has been flying in indian colors for 13 + years---with a full load of BVR missiles.

JF 17 still does not have a fully operational aircraft with a fully operational and deployed SD10's.

Just like I told you guys around 5 years ago---it will take 8 to 10 years for the JF 17 to mature----and that was basically for the ground strike capability---because that is what the PAF has.

Once the Sd 10 is fully developed and tactically deployed in large numbers, it would take another 4-5 years for PAF to come up with a tactics and operational manual and guidance for the BVR missile and engagement.

Ethically---how can you compare an aircraft system that is not even in partial deployment to the one in full fledged operation for over a decade.

Guy----you are just winging it right and left---. Seems like more of you guys have learnt---that it is better to lie about your capabilities and be cheered by the crowd rather than be truthfull and be real.


As for PAF----it has no where to go now. It signed its destiny in 2005 with the earthquake in kashmir. It is broke---it is penniless---it cannot even afford to buy the cheapest aircraft in the industry---.

This smart air force that you people are bragging is the same corparation that lost most of its surveillance assets on the ground to terrorist attacks.

SD-10's have been operational for quite a while.
 
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Bhai look at it this way
JF 17 as of now is a ground stiker /CAS platform and notready for its AA role as of yet even if it is even then it needs to mature along with PAF on new tacticks and doctroine cause there earlier one was based heavilly on F16s , mirrages and chinese copy of M21s

as for MKI well Bro as mastan Saheb told you that one MKI can easily carry 12 BVRs(4 under each wing and 4 under feusalage) + 2 R73 (wing tips) in one sortie (same ammount 3 JF17s carry in single sortie ) and its PESA radar is thrice as more power full and competent as the one on JF17 BLK 1 and even if you forget same equation is for its internal EW suite and Jammers

please tell how will 150 JF17 of PAF will counter 100 odd MKIs of IAF

Mastan Saheb knows more about arial warfare than you could ever imagine show some respect

Thanks You

It's not about one on one duel, it's about deterrence. PAF is not an offensive force but rather a defensive one. PESA radar is not comparable to KLJ at all, it being powerful multiple times beyond JF-17's radar.

If i am correct the defensive doctorine would be to make full use of force multipliers, AWACS, radar stations to counter India's military might.

Now comparing MKI with JF-17 is a bit unfair, since MKI being a missile truck with long legs and JF-17 just recently spreading its wings. Plus India does need long range planes to counter China's growing military buildup cum presence.
 
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well bro quite right you are about MKI but as far as i remeber PAF had always been on offensive and tried and even sucseeded to an extend in 1965 same was in 1971 but this time IAF were prepaired why do you think PAF is defensive now ? + where does JF17 fits in PAFs new "defensive doctroine".... Thanks in Advance

as for China well as in my last post i stated 100 MKIs onli against PAF cause the rest along with Rafales and FGFA (85%) are for north eatern border

Tejas is to India what F-17 is to Pakistan. Backbone of the airforce, since Mig 21's and F7's are being phased out.

China is rapidly building it's arsenal and India is countering seeing the two armies make up bulk of Asia's defense expenditures. 100 MKI's are a tough adversary but we know we can hold India so much so to counter their force for a short period. After that its nuke time :D

On a serious note India is a little lagging behind China, we arent near you guys in military might.

There is no need to reply "MastaKhan". He is either an Indian or some fake Pakistani. Just read his posts. Truly amazing that this guy is allowed to post so long.

Relax he is a Pakistani with a different view than ours, mostly wrong info but mixed with bitter truths. Deadly combination.
 
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