JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[Chak Bamu]

PAC currently producing 16 aircraft per year.

If the rate can go up, it should be for PAF. Not for exports.

OK, agreed. Now you provide the financing for those extra planes. If not, hold your peace.

Idle production capacity does no one any good. It is far better to employ it for export. You clearly do not have any idea as to how industrial enterprises actually work and make money. There are 1) financial obligations, 2) salaries for people appropriately trained but working at less than potential, 3) Overhead expenses, 4) Sunk infrastructure costs that need to be justified and redeemed by cost effective production.

Everyone would like to for PAF to get 300 planes next month. But that alas can not happen. If wishes were horses beggars would ride.

I think PAF people have similar mind-set as yours. They clearly are not interested in exporting JF-17. They can not seem to muster enough energy to put together even the most rudimentary requirements of marketing. There seems to be no willingness at all. GOP has asked them to employ extra capacity for exports to make the program self-sustaining, but PAF is dragging its feet like an unwilling child.

They can not put out even a single video from the Dubai Air Show. All that was needed was a single competent person with a simple camera who would work for 5 minutes. Any Pakistani with a couple of neurons would do it for free. But PAF can not manage even that. Great going PAF. May your secrets ever be safe.

 

[SQ8]

They can not put out even a single video from the Dubai Air Show. All that was needed was a single competent person with a simple camera who would work for 5 minutes. Any Pakistani with a couple of neurons would do it for free. But PAF can not manage even that. Great going PAF. May your secrets ever be safe.

Oh there are videos.. but these are reserved for the favourite past time of presentations. Because as such, no one wants to make the effort to put videos onto the website or otherwise.

The PAF did not want export at all.. and this is from 2011. However, the Chinese are very keen for it. Eventually though, the PAF realized that it cannot finance its own JF-17 program unless it sells some abroad and this is what is going on with the marketing. Seriously though, you really think there was someone with a Brain in the PAF who actually thought of hiring a marketing specialist or outsource it to a firm.... Off course not, we get all the information we need to do it as officers.. we'll use jugaar.. thats all we know.

 

[nomi007]

with world best fighters

 

[Arsalan]

PAC currently producing 16 aircraft per year.

If the rate can go up, it should be for PAF. Not for exports.

They were setting up a second production line back in 2012. The planes included two production lines working at JF-17 and a third unit working for other aircraft and maintenance and up gradations.

 

[nomi007]

 

[HRK]

OK, agreed. Now you provide the financing for those extra planes. If not, hold your peace.

Idle production capacity does no one any good. It is far better to employ it for export. You clearly do not have any idea as to how industrial enterprises actually work and make money. There are 1) financial obligations, 2) salaries for people appropriately trained but working at less than potential, 3) Overhead expenses, 4) Sunk infrastructure costs that need to be justified and redeemed by cost effective production.

Everyone would like to for PAF to get 300 planes next month. But that alas can not happen. If wishes were horses beggars would ride.

I think PAF people have similar mind-set as yours. They clearly are not interested in exporting JF-17. They can not seem to muster enough energy to put together even the most rudimentary requirements of marketing. There seems to be no willingness at all. GOP has asked them to employ extra capacity for exports to make the program self-sustaining, but PAF is dragging its feet like an unwilling child.

They can not put out even a single video from the Dubai Air Show. All that was needed was a single competent person with a simple camera who would work for 5 minutes. Any Pakistani with a couple of neurons would do it for free. But PAF can not manage even that. Great going PAF. May your secrets ever be safe.

Sir jee .... We all want JF-17 to be commercially successful but is it the need of the day .....??

we need to understand that neither PAF is a commercial organization nor PAC ..... further the initiating objective of JF-17 was to have a bird which can replace aging fleet of PAF ..... so why are we expecting PAF or PAC to think or act as a commercial enterprises ..... at least we should give credit where it is due ..... and here in this case IMHO they are doing the right thing by remaining committed to the fundamental task .....

so 'extra capacity' for export make sense but for that there must be a 'commercial body' .... here i think Defence export board should come and play its role ....

 

[fatman17]

Thunder Over Dubai As First JF-17 Batch Is Completed
Dubai Air Show » 2013
by David Donald

The Sino-Pakistani JF-17 Thunder is being promoted as a capable yet affordable multi-role warplane.
November 18, 2013, 10:25 AM
Next month a ceremony will be held in Pakistan to mark the delivery of the 50th JF-17 multirole fighter from the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) factory at Kamra. The handover marks the completion of production of the first batch of aircraft for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). Designed in China by Chengdu as the FC-1, the JF-17 Thunder is being jointly developed and marketed by the Chinese and PAC.
With the first batch completed, the Kamra factory is gearing up to begin Block 2 production, with a gap of a few weeks to reconfigure the assembly line to provide for the new version. Block 2 JF-17s differ by between 10 and 15 percent from Block 1 machines, with improvements implemented across much of the avionics suite. The most important difference is the addition of an air-to-air refueling capability.
Block 2 will cover a further 50 aircraft and will complete the current firm orders from the PAF for 100 JF-17s. However, the eventual force requirement is considerably greater as the JF-17 replaces the F-5, F-7 and Mirage in PAF service. The factory is currently producing at a rate of 16 aircraft per year, but can increase to 25 if needed. All JF-17s are assembled in Pakistan, but China retains around 40 percent of the total workshare.
The JF-17 partnership is currently in the process of defining what the configuration of the Block 3 production aircraft will be, with the main aim of enhancing capability. This may include new weapons, from both Chinese and other origins, and possibly new radar and engine. The JF-17 already has the SD-10 (PL-12) active-radar air-to-air missile, and other weapons are being explored. PAC claims that integration of new weapons can be accomplished in a quick and cost-effective fashion.
Chengdu has schemed a two-seat trainer version that may prove attractive to some customers. It is understood that the project remains an engineering study only for now, and any further development would depend on a customer requirement. Pakistan has no such need for a trainer for the time being, as it has found the JF-17 to be an easy aircraft to fly with an excellent human/machine interface. The development of capable simulators means that the conversion of pilots to the type can be accomplished without the need for a two-seater, even for ab initio pilots flying the JF-17 as their first operational type. However, the future development of a two-seat combat aircraft is a possibility.
Here at Dubai the JF-17 is being displayed daily by Wing Commander Ronald, commander of No. 16 ‘Black Panthers’ Squadron. PAC has sent three aircraft to the show to promote the JF-17 to potential buyers. The company suggests that there is a global requirement to replace up to 4,000 early-generation jet fighters, and it is pitching the JF-17 as a cost-effective aircraft that offers true multi-role capability. PAC reports that 11 countries are showing strong interest in the type.

 

[Gryphon]

Dubai Airshow 2013: Pakistan looks to Block 3 variant of JF-17

Reuben F Johnson, Dubai - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

21 November 2013

At this year's Dubai Airshow officials from the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra discussed their plans for a future Block 3 variant of the Chengdu JF-17/FC-1 fighter now that the Block 2 model has a mature configuration. The aircraft is produced jointly by the PAC and Chengdu Aerospace Corporation in China.

"The Block 3 aircraft now exists in the form of a conceptual design and a list of mission requirements," said one of the senior Pakistan Air Force (PAF) officers assigned to the programme, "but no concrete decisions have been made about the choice and configuration of the onboard systems for the aircraft."

(104 of 670 words)

Dubai Airshow 2013: Pakistan looks to Block 3 variant of JF-17 - IHS Jane's 360

 

[abaseen99]

Sudanese Defense Minister stopped to watch China Xiaolong Falcon

 

[Tempest II]

A couple of days ago there was an exchange on the versions of C-802 missiles. I.e. the land attack vs the anti-ship, and which one the JF-17 carries. The Dubai 2013 display had the C-802AKG. The poster from Zhuhai 2012 has the C-802A and JF-17. The "A" is anti-ship. The AKG with land attack and antiship.

 

[fatman17]

Dubai Airshow 2013: Pakistan looks to Block 3 variant of JF-17


Author:Reuben F Johnson, Dubai
Last posted:2013-Nov-22

At this year's Dubai Airshow officials from the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra discussed their plans for a future Block 3 variant of the Chengdu JF-17/FC-1 fighter now that the Block 2 model has a mature configuration. The aircraft is produced jointly by the PAC and Chengdu Aerospace Corporation in China.

"The Block 3 aircraft now exists in the form of a conceptual design and a list of mission requirements," said one of the senior Pakistan Air Force (PAF) officers assigned to the programme, "but no concrete decisions have been made about the choice and configuration of the onboard systems for the aircraft."

Despite proposals to replace the JF-17's existing radar and electronic warfare systems, the PAF officers who said they are happy with the performance of the aircraft's current Chinese systems and have no plans to replace these with other third-country alternatives. Specifically, the PAF expressed satisfaction with the radar set and the KG300G electronic warfare pod, both of which are produced by different institutes of the China Electronics Technology Corporation (CETC). These enterprises are co-located in Chengdu, Sichuan Province, along with Aircraft Plant No 132, which manufactures the JF-17.

However, if there is to be a series-produced FC-1 variant that is operated by the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) the "rigid security protocols in China will not permit them to operate the aircraft with a common [to the Pakistani aircraft] set of onboard systems," said a Chinese industry specialist with inside knowledge of the programme.

One major JF-17 subsystem that has long been the subject of a possible replacement is the Russian-made Klimov/Sarkisov RD-93 jet engine: a modified version of Mikoyan's MiG-29 RD-33 power plant. Numerous stories over the years have discussed replacing this engine with the WS-13 engine produced by the Liyang Aeroengine Corporation (LYAC) in Guizhou, Guiyang Province.

However, there are again reports that technology bottlenecks continue to dog this and other Chinese military engine designs, "such as engine blades warping during high-g manoeuvres and sometimes complete failures of the compressor section", according to a Western intelligence officer posted in Beijing. "Additionally, the lack of fluency with such aviation materials technologies as powder metallurgy are another shortcoming that holds back Chinese progress in propulsion development," he said.

It is reported recently that more than USD700 million was to be invested into LYAC, part of which is presumably to be used to enhance the technological proficiency of the enterprise.

The PAF officer also elaborated on the appearance this year of a model of a two-seat version of the JF-17, but then added: "This was not developed primarily for use in Pakistan. As part of our plan to enhance the technological skills in our air force we have made a commitment to conduct flight training for the JF-17 with some very sophisticated and high-definition simulators. The two-seat variant has primarily been developed in order to meet the training requirements of export customers."

The same officer stated that there are "several nations interested in the JF-17, but they have not yet placed any orders. This is largely due to the current turmoil in the Middle East that has acted as a brake on procurement plans in some countries, but we see this as only a temporary setback".

JDW

Dubai Air Show 2013: Details emerge on Chinese CM400AKG anti-ship missile

Author:Richard D Fisher Jr, Dubai
James Hardy, London

Last posted:2013-Nov-20
Images:1 image

Officials at the 2013 Dubai Air Show revealed new details about the China Aerospace Corporation (CASIC) Mach 4+ CM-400AKG anti-ship missile, which was unveiled at the November 2012 Zhuhai Airshow.

A model of the CASIC CM400AKG anti-ship missile was displayed overseas for the first time in Dubai. (Richard D Fisher Jr)

A full-size model of the missile was displayed in Dubai along with the Chinese-Pakistani Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 fighter.

A military source stated that the CM-400AKG had been tested and was "operational" with China's military, contradicting earlier reports that the missile was designed by China to first meet Pakistani Air Force (PAF) requirements.

The CM-400AKG has previously been described as a response to the Russian-Indian BrahMos supersonic anti-ship missile.

While the official did not specify which PLA platforms the CM-400AKG was in service with, it is likely that the CM-400AKG has been initially fitted to Xian JH-7A strike fighters of the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) and PLA Navy Air Force (PLANAF).

The source also revealed that a 'more advanced' version of the CM-400AKG was under development, with its major difference being the incorporation of a new radar guidance system that he declined to describe.

However, Aviation Industries Corporation of China (AVIC) did disclose system and dimensional data about the CM-400AKG, including information on three possible guidance systems.

One guidance system was described as 'INS+GNSS+ passive radar (L, S, X Band)' giving the missile an circular error probability (CEP) of 5-10 m. A second version was described as 'INS+GNSS+IR/TV Seeker' with a CEP of 5 m. A third version employs 'INS+GNSS Combined Guidance' with a CEP of 50 m.

AVIC also confirmed earlier reports that the CM-400AKG has a high-altitude, high-speed launch profile, listing launch altitude as 8-12 km, and launch speed as Mach 0.7-0.9. AVIC also notes the missile's length as 5.165 m, diameter as 40 cm, and range as 100-240 km. It is armed with a 200 kg "penetration-explosive" warhead.

AVIC did not disclose the speed of the CM-400AKG, perhaps its most attractive performance parameter. Previous reports have estimated it to be as high as Mach 4.5. Other CASIC data indicates the CM-400AKG climbs to a high altitude after launch and terminates with a very high-speed dive on the target.

COMMENT
While this is the first official unveiling of the CM-400AKG overseas, it first appeared briefly in public at the 2011 Dubai Air Show, when a placard for the weapon was placed alongside a PAF JF-17 Thunder and then removed.

The weapon itself was not shown, but PAF personnel later acknowledged it to be a new Chinese-built air-to-surface missile. In November 2012 a 'real' weapon was displayed with a PAF JF-17 at Air Show China, with PAF officers present describing it as "a carrier killer".
JDW

 

[nomi007]

which missile it is

 

[niaz]

What happened to the 3rd Thunder squadron? It is more than 12 months late. News anyone?

 

[Donatello]

What happened to the 3rd Thunder squadron? It is more than 12 months late. News anyone?

According to an article someone post here, third squadron is to be stood up early next year.

 

[nomi007]

DUBAI: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17
Chinese aerospace giant AVIC has quietly advertised critical details about the accuracy and performance of a secretive project to develop a supersonic cruise missile reportedly dubbed an “aircraft carrier killer” by the launch customer.

A full list of specifications for the CM-400AKG missile was played on a loop inside the AVIC exhibit stand at the Dubai air show; a marketing venue for the JF-17 fighter jointly developed between China and Pakistan - the latter of which operates the type as the "Thunder".
News reports have indicated the CM-400 has entered service with the Pakistan air force. The AVIC video notes vaguely that the 910kg (2,000lb) weapon “can be carried by JF-17, etc”. It is usually compared with the Indian/Russian Brahmos high-speed cruise missile.

For the first time, the AVIC video details claims for the accuracy of each of the CM-400’s three major guidance systems, starting with a 50m (164ft) circular error probable (CEP) for an inertial navigation system coupled with satellite positioning. A weapon's CEP is defined as the 50% probability that it will hit within a given radius of the target’s position.

The accuracy of the CM-400 improves by an order of magnitude - to a CEP of 5m - when an onboard infrared (IR)/TV seeker activates to provide terminal guidance. The list also claims that the CEP of the weapon actually worsens to 5-10m when an IR/TV seeker is supplemented by a passive radar during the terminal phase. It is not clear why the passive radar – identified as occupying the L, S and X bands of the electromagnetic spectrum – would not improve the CM-400’s accuracy.

AVIC lists the 0.4m-diameter missile as having a range of between 54-130nm (100-240km), while carrying either a 150kg blast warhead or 200kg penetration warhead.

A list of system features appears to confirm an unusual characteristic associated with the CM-400. Unlike most high-speed cruise missiles, which fly at low altitude to avoid detection, the CM-400 uses “high [altitude] launching” to achieve “higher aircraft survivability”, according to the video.

A fighter such as the Chengdu/Pakistan Aeronautical Complex JF-17 would launch the missile at speeds between Mach 0.7 and M0.9 at an elevation between 26,200ft and 39,400ft, according to the AVIC specifications.

News reports indicate the weapon was publicly unveiled by China at the Zhuhai air show in 2012.
DUBAI: China details performance of 'carrier killer' missile for JF-17