JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Luftwaffe]

Farooqi1 , why would be needing more than 3 fighter types [jft/j10/f16] of broadly the same generation and capability? how will you counter pakfa other than the chinese 5th gen option which would be comparable,cheap and more importantly available

My friend, Thankyou, always to the rescue of your friends...

First that is something you need to Answer, why acquire fighter roughly of the same generation or would become more or less of the same generation in next 2-4 Years.

Questions...Why would you require J-10B when JFT Block III is going to be on the same level and declared by some members equal or in many areas better than Viper Block 60 weapons-avionics-radar-stealthier, Would not J-10B And JF-17 B III be of the same Generation and Capabilities by 2017. Why would you invest in 36-150 J-10B when JF-17 BIII would vastly be superior to the predecessor Why not concentrate on a single Project. You would require Money to fund Block III, why spend it on J-10B. Why did not PAF invest A $Billion in JFT Project to make it F-16 Class Fighter from the start instead of choosing to invest here and there on multiple Aircraft Projects.

How can you assume J-20 or Any other Chinese 5th Gen would be Cheap and available in time to PAF, what is cheap cost, IF J-10B costs $40M, J-11B/BS costs $50M how do you assume Chinese 5th Gen to be cheap; it would be $70M-80M, even $15M JFT is not Cheap for PAF the funds need to acquire comes form Chinese Tax Payers and other sources, that is bad to take cut from operational Air Force budget all such projects have always been internationally for the Air Forces funded from separate Govt sources.

 

[Farooqi1]

Hehn,

Amazing isn't it---here on one side---paf brags about its man behind the machine---pakistani pilots are the world's best---. PAF is full of so many lies--it is as usual living in a world of its own---.

Mr. Khan

Got your message. I believe I can not post private messages. Thanks for pointing out. I would be very careful from now on. Also I wan to thank you for making me realize what PAF is missing.

 

[Najam Khan]

These prototypes are very clean, hardly any marking for ground crew visible on them...not even on the air brakes. Non-operational flying and knowing inside out of this jet would be main reasons

 

[Farooqi1]

We have an immediate requirement to counter some of the equipments of other side. JFT would mature in its due time and advancements would take 5 to 10 years to be fully useful. We need to get at least some SU 27 or J11B

 

[Areesh]

Please talk about JFT and it's development. Enough with this yes JFT no JFT cr@p.

 

[Safriz]

We have an immediate requirement to counter some of the equipments of other side. JFT would mature in its due time and advancements would take 5 to 10 years to be fully useful. We need to get at least some SU 27 or J11B

indian mmrca will take another ten yeara to finally get done and dusted with
thanks to.indian political ping pong..pakistan will have enough time to catch up...

 

[Bratva]

read an intresting prespective on pakdef. After JF-17 crashed, program was put on a brief hold and PAF asked chinese to rectify and correct the shortcomings in JF-17 as the cause of crash was structural disintegration in mid air, due to this reason raising of third squadron is being delayed. . . .

 

[ababeel22]

Russia in my opinion is not going to sell any thing substantial to pak (may be we can get some good deals for engines though), china's quality is debatable (not in my opinion). so why not go for gripen nxg may be we can get their help for our AWACS also and be updated with western technology at the same time. i think if we dont go for j10s (if jf17 blck 3 is going to be of same class) we can go for around 50 gripens + their valuable help for our jft program.

 

[pshamim]

We have an immediate requirement to counter some of the equipments of other side. JFT would mature in its due time and advancements would take 5 to 10 years to be fully useful. We need to get at least some SU 27 or J11B

Farooqi Saheb,
I value your concerns and your intense desire for the strengthening the safety and security of Pakistan Defense . But Bhai, the things do not work the way you desire. Let us not have a simplistic view basen on our wishful thinking. Wishing and getting something are two different things. Hopefully your wishes will be answered but a prolonged and hard work is required n our part also.

Pakistan has made many aweful decisions that we rue about while others like India had no other choice. We came very close to acquiring Russian equipment byt both these times we made a decision not to go for them. Once it was in 1950s and then in 1980s. During 1950s We thought we will receive equipment for free or at cheaper prices if we joind Baghdad Pact,CENTO and Seato, During 19880 we used Russian offers to pressure the French to reduce Mirage-2000 while never having any intentions of buying the Russian armamnent. Perceptions about Russian equipment were never positive at the time and we always considered and desired to buy the Western aemament whon we always preferred due to their quality, lethality at lower sost due to our thinkinking that we were indispensible at the world stage.

India on the other hand had no other choice. It was financially weak and being a friend of China, it did not figure positively for USA. It had to turn to Russia for its defence and political backing. We are aware of the rest of the story.

One thing that we failed to understand that USA would always do things which were in its interest or which will help in achieving its goals. It would not help us if our interests affected its own negatively. That is also a fact that we must remember.

India at the moment has a lot of money. It all started with bthe first outsourcing of work to India by Microsoft due to the hard work of some Indian employees. Floodgates opened up after that and you know rest of the story too. It still has a lot of money left to make deals with Russia and loss of Indian deals will still hurt Russia if it provide us with frontline armaments you so desire and value of which will be far less than what India can buy from them after spending on deals with the West..

That is why I feel that it will not be possible to achieve in short term what you are wishing for. We need to be financially very strong. Our purchases against soft loans from China will not be possible with Russia. Russia will not give us anything on credit unless we show evidence that we are seriously working and capable of solving our problems and set our house straight. Since, Musharraf left the throne, there has been no increase in our foreign exchange reserves during the current Government's rule.

We have no other option but to stay with China who have helped us. In in the mean time if we do receive anything from Russia, as you are so confident, it will be limited to something minor. Even a Russian engines deal will be a major development if it materializes.

 

[Dil Pakistan]

Russia in my opinion is not going to sell any thing substantial to pak (may be we can get some good deals for engines though), china's quality is debatable (not in my opinion). so why not go for gripen nxg may be we can get their help for our AWACS also and be updated with western technology at the same time. i think if we dont go for j10s (if jf17 blck 3 is going to be of same class) we can go for around 50 gripens + their valuable help for our jft program.

The question is: Is Sweden going to sell Pak the Gripen NG ? And also, Gripen has American engine !!!!! Will US allow ? And number 3, Do we have the money ????

read an intresting prespective on pakdef. After JF-17 crashed, program was put on a brief hold and PAF asked chinese to rectify and correct the shortcomings in JF-17 as the cause of crash was structural disintegration in mid air, due to this reason raising of third squadron is being delayed. . . .

Was'nt it a bird strike ?

 

[Bossman]

Hehn,

Amazing isn't it---here on one side---paf brags about its man behind the machine---pakistani pilots are the world's best---. PAF is full of so many lies--it is as usual living in a world of its own---.

Show me any evidence that PAF has made any statement to this effect, officially? Don't confuse fanboy statements with official views.

 

[Farooqi1]

Farooqi Saheb,
I value your concerns and your intense desire for the strengthening the safety and security of Pakistan Defense . But Bhai, the things do not work the way you desire. Let us not have a simplistic view basen on our wishful thinking. Wishing and getting something are two different things. Hopefully your wishes will be answered but a prolonged and hard work is required n our part also.

Pakistan has made many aweful decisions that we rue about while others like India had no other choice. We came very close to acquiring Russian equipment byt both these times we made a decision not to go for them. Once it was in 1950s and then in 1980s. During 1950s We thought we will receive equipment for free or at cheaper prices if we joind Baghdad Pact,CENTO and Seato, During 19880 we used Russian offers to pressure the French to reduce Mirage-2000 while never having any intentions of buying the Russian armamnent. Perceptions about Russian equipment were never positive at the time and we always considered and desired to buy the Western aemament whon we always preferred due to their quality, lethality at lower sost due to our thinkinking that we were indispensible at the world stage.

India on the other hand had no other choice. It was financially weak and being a friend of China, it did not figure positively for USA. It had to turn to Russia for its defence and political backing. We are aware of the rest of the story.

One thing that we failed to understand that USA would always do things which were in its interest or which will help in achieving its goals. It would not help us if our interests affected its own negatively. That is also a fact that we must remember.

India at the moment has a lot of money. It all started with bthe first outsourcing of work to India by Microsoft due to the hard work of some Indian employees. Floodgates opened up after that and you know rest of the story too. It still has a lot of money left to make deals with Russia and loss of Indian deals will still hurt Russia if it provide us with frontline armaments you so desire and value of which will be far less than what India can buy from them after spending on deals with the West..

That is why I feel that it will not be possible to achieve in short term what you are wishing for. We need to be financially very strong. Our purchases against soft loans from China will not be possible with Russia. Russia will not give us anything on credit unless we show evidence that we are seriously working and capable of solving our problems and set our house straight. Since, Musharraf left the throne, there has been no increase in our foreign exchange reserves during the current Government's rule.

We have no other option but to stay with China who have helped us. In in the mean time if we do receive anything from Russia, as you are so confident, it will be limited to something minor. Even a Russian engines deal will be a major development if it materializes.

Pshamim Sahaib.


I am absolutely, positively not suggesting that we should abandon China. We can try with Russia too. Plus we can get J11B from China. Can't we? My point is it looks like we have given up on more advance, capable and powerful equipment. Our adopted policy of single engine planes is the most stupidest thing I have herd under the circumstances we are going through. We are in a dangerous situation as usual due to our own inept decisions and policies.

All I am saying that let us try with Russia. We may be able to succeed. But the agenda of the proposed meetings I have read, has no mention of defense.

 

[Edevelop]

I think JF-17's:

- Avionics
-The types of Weapons it can carry
- Radar cross section
- Size

Is all excellent and i'm sure there will be minimal changes to improve in the future....

However, i believe we MUST work on getting the performance right. We need to work on:

- Better Engine (No black smoke)
- TVC Control
- Composite Use to increase thrust to weight ratio
- CFT to have Greater Ferry Range

 

[Donatello]

Pshamim Sahaib.


I am absolutely, positively not suggesting that we should abandon China. We can try with Russia too. Plus we can get J11B from China. Can't we? My point is it looks like we have given up on more advance, capable and powerful equipment. Our adopted policy of single engine planes is the most stupidest thing I have herd under the circumstances we are going through. We are in a dangerous situation as usual due to our own inept decisions and policies.

All I am saying that let us try with Russia. We may be able to succeed. But the agenda of the proposed meetings I have read, has no mention of defense.

I think Pakistan and China both should approach the Russian Foreign minister and their Defense minister, and let Russians know that it will be win win situation if Russia opens up it's arms exports. It will help their struggling arms industry. Right now the only country that imports heavily from them is India. And by buying Rafale in MMRCA and ruling out MIGs from Russia, India showed that it valued French more than Russia, even though Mig 35 is itself a very capable plane, and India could have been the launch customer.

Now, i think that Pakistan itself is betting that Chinese WS10 and WS13 engines will mature quickly enough to not warrant engine deal with Russia. This means that PAF definitely knows something about WS engines, that we don't. The question is not of RD93 engine now, but the AL 31 for future J-10 procurement. We already have enough RD93s for time being.


But yes, Pakistan should definitely improve relations with Russia and put it's strategic geographic position on the negotiating table.



This is only possible when you have good diplomats.

With clowns, this is all but fantasy.

 

[Armstrong]

Pshamim Sahaib.


I am absolutely, positively not suggesting that we should abandon China. We can try with Russia too. Plus we can get J11B from China. Can't we? My point is it looks like we have given up on more advance, capable and powerful equipment. Our adopted policy of single engine planes is the most stupidest thing I have herd under the circumstances we are going through. We are in a dangerous situation as usual due to our own inept decisions and policies.

All I am saying that let us try with Russia. We may be able to succeed. But the agenda of the proposed meetings I have read, has no mention of defense.

Farooqi sahib ! I'm sure that the Civil Servants sitting in the Foreign Ministry and the Generals sitting in GHQ are smart enough to avail any and all avenues of opportunities that may present themselves for Pakistan, including the Russian connection !

On to acquiring the J11Bs - Love too....rokra hai ? Nahin ? Then stick with the single-engine JF-17s !

My friend why are you writing it off as something utterly disappointing ? Do you not see that :

- it is a low-cost (and not low-quality) alternative to those expensive goodies that you'd want us to acquire !

- we gain invaluable know-how in being a part of the project and then manufacturing them !

- we can produce them locally...hence they'd still be available if sanctions were imposed on Pakistan; which in all likelihood is going to happen as soon as 2014 arrives.

- its got pretty decent avionics and provides a rather good BVR capability !

- its, from what I've heard, made to be integrated with a plethora of different types of goodies (avionics and sort) so we get to upgrade it over the years seamlessly depending on the availability of finance !

- its intended target was to replace the ageing A-5s, Mirages and the F-7s !

- its adaptable enough to be a Naval Variant as well !

- its still anything but a fully mature platform and so by the time India does acquire her MMRCAs and complete the Su-30MKI acquisitions, the JF-17 would already have entered in its Block 3 phase (who knows maybe further) !

- its not going to operate as our only platform and that too in a bubble but will be complemented by our F-16s, our J-10Bs, our SAMs, our AWACs and possibly our battle-field missiles to give enough of a head-ache to significantly deter any misadventure by our adversary !

After that when the money starts flowing...I'm sure J-11s would be on our radar as well but as of now...unless Pakistan is sitting on some undiscovered oil-wells which are going to get us some petro-dollars in the next decade or so...the JF-17 is the best value-for-money acquisition we can go for !