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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

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@Darky, r u sure india is the biggest russian market? can you name some projects you started with russia in last 2 3 years every thing india now buying is from west or US.
and for RD-93 is a temporary solution not a permanent future solution WS-13 is so, if china received more then 500 of these types then u think we still need to worry about embargo or anything?

btw i like that sentence " would not leave any thing in Pakistan to fight for " keep dreaming babyy keep dreaming...
 
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In case of China offcourse not.. in case of Pakistan yes If they are the inducted with JF-17 in a big number.. again the sanction or embargo would not be put on effect for say a week long conflict but for say a 2-3 moth war the situation could be a lot different.

The long and short of it is this -- if the close India / Russia relationship was realy going to have any impact on this fighter -- Russia would have blocked the transfer of RD-93's to Pakistan and that would have delayed the programme. However they chose not to do this despite announcing many times that they would. Now the JF-17 horse has well and truly bolted - trying to close the gate now with make believe scenarios of 3 month long wars where an engine block would effect the type -- just comes across a bit desperate. Its all ok listing all the reasons why India is more important to Russia than a couple of 100 RD-93's-- but if this is so true- why has Russia allowed there transfer to Pakistan in the first place? When you also take into account the WS-13 currently being flight tested -- you can understand why PAF high ups have said that the engine 'issue' is a 'none issue.'
 
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sirjee, I think f-16 has a bigger secondary market than RD-93, correct me If I m wrong.



sirjee, as I told you we are specifically talking about war time scenario, do you believe that Russia will sale engines of few millions dollar and hamper the potential sale of billions of dollars ?

US case is totally different, US was not selling us initially it was all pakistan was buying with lot of strings... but this strings are not attached to us. we are giving them hard cash to buy expensive toys, their frustrations during MCRA was a tight slap.

Russia will 'ABSOLUTELY' supply parts to China. It doesn't matter conflict or not. You have to see the world politics, the world is not about India and nor did the first plane with humans landed in India as much as my Indian friends like to believe that.

In the highest ranks within the US, what do you think they think of India? A little less than China. If you read Defense Sec Robert's Gate's and Panetta's assessment (available on Google from last year), he called China and India a threat to the US. It is actually true. The lobbies made him sort of retract his statements but it is pretty obvious. However, they are choosing India as a hedge against the Chinese and thus the "strategic partner" slogan, plus the lobby.

Think about it, once the 5th Gen PAKFA and other projects are done and India has the technology etc, what will Russia get out of you in the future? Nothing. So, in many ways, you'll make the Russia military complex suffer. Similarly, Americans are willing to sell you everything as the corporate leaders have nothing but greed. They are short term goal oriented and they care about their bonuses vs. what's right and add $$$$ from the Indian lobby to it and there you go. So after say US sells you F 35 and technology and other important toys, what do they have to get out of India 10 years from that point? NOTHING!!!
In fact, they've given crap load of money to India and their $$$$ are making India a regional power. It won't be more than ten years or so when US will be tasting its own medicine, i.e when India will look them into their eyes and will tell them to go F$$$$ themselves on certain issues....SO, conclusion is, none of these guys are stupid, they've ruled the world as the ONLY superpower since WWII (more time than India's existence) so they know the game better than anyone else!!!
India just happens to be the best bet against the Chinese. Now if both US and Russia knew that after 10 years, the billions of military contracts will fade away and they'll then also have another player competing with their products, what will they do??? Find OTHER markets....i.e Pakistan. The US will ALWAYS sell to Pak (may not be top of the class) but enough to irk India and then force India to buy the next best thing. Similarly, Russia would want another customer, right now through China and later DIRECT when Indian $$$$ start to fade away. Welcome to world politics my friend :). Remember, Pak is the SIXTH largest population in the world a to-be emerging market like India. The time for sky rocket growth is a matter of WHEN, not IF and NO COUNTRY will neglect that. Right now you'll see semi-cold relations due to Pakistan's leadership's mistakes who didn't know how to run the country and align themselves with US and Russia properly
 
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RD-93 was embargoed mainly due the effect it was thought to be having in future on Mig29 sales.. Its pure business from Russian side.. the sale of RD-93 only make PAF more dependent on them for repairs/spares and overhauls... Russians have refused China many things in pasts RD-93 is nothing compared against Al-41 or Item 117C/S supercruising turbofans or the S-400 airdefense system.. Snow Leopard radar to name a few.

While It has been in partnership with India on many of its top level future projects like the 5th Gen. combat plane and has offered its best like SSN/AC/Cruise Missiles... its pretty much clear where they stand as of now... although they might change their stand in future.. however in the current scenario its a far thing.

If Russian values india so much, RD-93 engine sales will never go thru in the first place. That few hundred engine is imcomparable to the aircraft carrier, MKI, T-90, frigate, destroyers bought from Russia...

Some are still in illusion that they are desperate trying to save face by saying this and that. China is an important allies that Russia can't afford to offend. The ties between russia and china is beyond commercial military deals alone, they are still many strategic cooperation between china and Russia. Russia directly deal with china for RD-93 deals. Unless there is a war between china and Russia. Rd-93 export to china will never be disrupted...

Indian must realise its weak position in international stand. Besides money, it cannot offer the leverage, power , technology and international influence like the 5 major power.

Remember how India is bully by Russian to overpaid for carrier and MKI? How helpless Indian looks. Now is the Indian talking abt brotherhood with their Russia brother. Lol..
 
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Russian played well in between Pakistan and India. It sells RD93 to Pakistan through China, so India has to pay more money for Su-30.
 
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Russian played well in between Pakistan and India. It sells RD93 to Pakistan through China, so India has to pay more money for Su-30.

Hi,

The reason russia sells RD93 is that it is not a game changer---the playing field stays the same---russia gets foreign exchange---china and pakistan are both happy---russia has made inroads in pakistan by selling something that is important to pakistan---but of no great significance to russia and its ally---the u s sells F16 blk52 to pakistan is not a game changer---they sell the aim 120---it is a game changer in a way that it balances the power structure---and takes a bit of a desperation factor away from pakistan.

Now if russia would sell what's that the ALF31---is that the engine on chinese su30---andJ10---to pakistan now---then it is sort of a power shift----but not from 5 years from now----. If it happens now----then you can say that russia is unhappy with india---.

But the very interesting thing that most us missed was that both Russia and India are buying defence equipment from france----. That is intruiging----. Major weapons systems for india---and naval ship for russia.
 
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If Russian values india so much, RD-93 engine sales will never go thru in the first place. That few hundred engine is imcomparable to the aircraft carrier, MKI, T-90, frigate, destroyers bought from Russia...

According to the logic used in Chin.. yes.
For rest of the world and Pakistan.. No... you see such things only works in Chin.

Some are still in illusion that they are desperate trying to save face by saying this and that. China is an important allies that Russia can't afford to offend. The ties between russia and china is beyond commercial military deals alone, they are still many strategic cooperation between china and Russia. Russia directly deal with china for RD-93 deals. Unless there is a war between china and Russia. Rd-93 export to china will never be disrupted...

The sale was stopped on a small issue such as the future of old Mig29 market.. forget about any thing as big as a war..:lol:
Allies are those who base their combat planes alongside each other in Tajikistan to counter PLAAF,
Allies are those who are sailing their ships to south China sea to counter PLAN.
Allies are those who trust each other with the sale of something as big as strategic bombers.
Allies are those who trust each other with the lease of a SSN.
Allies are those who jointly develop the next generation of Hypersonic Cruise Missiles.
Allies are those who jointly develop the next generation combat planes together.....
.. I can go on and on....
Every one can see who is in illusion... ask the former russia
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/85571-will-support-india-against-friendly-neighbour-medvedev.html

Indian must realise its weak position in international stand. Besides money, it cannot offer the leverage, power , technology and international influence like the 5 major power.

Remember how India is bully by Russian to overpaid for carrier and MKI? How helpless Indian looks. Now is the Indian talking abt brotherhood with their Russia brother. Lol..

What is China without it money BTW ?
Over paid carrier.. can you buy a 48000ton carrier for 2.33 billion USD...:lol:.. much better than buying a rusting scrap metal and painting it to show it as new.
And MKI way beyond any thing Chin has much better electronics, engines and sub-system than any Chin plane... and that applies for another 10 years... so you cannot estimate the cost... blindly copying every soviet system that are 30 years old and buying the scrap metal and painting them new doesn't equate to technological advancement according to rest of the world... for Chin It can obviously be a great achievement.
 
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Hi,

The reason russia sells RD93 is that it is not a game changer---the playing field stays the same---russia gets foreign exchange---china and pakistan are both happy---russia has made inroads in pakistan by selling something that is important to pakistan---but of no great significance to russia and its ally---the u s sells F16 blk52 to pakistan is not a game changer---they sell the aim 120---it is a game changer in a way that it balances the power structure---and takes a bit of a desperation factor away from pakistan.

Now if russia would sell what's that the ALF31---is that the engine on chinese su30---andJ10---to pakistan now---then it is sort of a power shift----but not from 5 years from now----. If it happens now----then you can say that russia is unhappy with india---.

But the very interesting thing that most us missed was that both Russia and India are buying defence equipment from france----. That is intruiging----. Major weapons systems for india---and naval ship for russia.

F-16 is a game changer If they are there in decent numbers... you are trying to face a force of 4times the number and 8times the strength in MKI fleet alone.

5years from now on the scale would be raised to Item 117/117C or Al-31FN-M-2/3(Much Higher thrust values and a T/W ratio of 9-10 and better TBO @4000hrs) and Item 129/Type 30 engines(5th Gen. Engines T/W ratio of 11-12 and TBO in the class of American and European 5th gen. engines) in another 5 years... the scale is rising as the Su30 goes for MLU with new powerplant and the Number of new planes such Rafale increases.
 
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The sale was stopped on a small issue such as the future of old Mig29 market.. forget about any thing as big as a war..:lol:
Allies are those who base their combat planes alongside each other in Tajikistan to counter PLAAF,
Allies are those who are sailing their ships to south China sea to counter PLAN.
Allies are those who trust each other with the sale of something as big as strategic bombers.
Allies are those who trust each other with the lease of a SSN.
Allies are those who jointly develop the next generation of Hypersonic Cruise Missiles.
Allies are those who jointly develop the next generation combat planes together.....
.. I can go on and on....
Every one can see who is in illusion... ask the former russia
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/85571-will-support-india-against-friendly-neighbour-medvedev.html

Lol... You still treat Russian as friend after they humilitate you all by outright reject yr PM call to sanction Rd-93 re export to PAF? After they ignore the first contract sign of the carrier and MKI deal and raise the price they deem. And you Indian has no pride but bow to them and agree to whatever price Russian want? PAthetic is the only word to describe Indian defence. Cos you are desperate ano one will turn to... Haha.....

That is why RD-93 wil have no prOblem supply to PAF IN WARTIME WITH INDIA.

What is China without it money BTW ?
Over paid carrier.. can you buy a 48000ton carrier for 2.33 billion USD...:lol:.. much better than buying a rusting scrap metal and painting it to show it as new.
And MKI way beyond any thing Chin has much better electronics, engines and sub-system than any Chin plane... and that applies for another 10 years... so you cannot estimate the cost... blindly copying every soviet system that are 30 years old and buying the scrap metal and painting them new doesn't equate to technological advancement according to rest of the world... for Chin It can obviously be a great achievement.

Lol.. China share a big border with Russia. Stability is what Russia needed. Plus china Veto power in UN will come in handy as demonstrated in Syria crisis...

If PLAN carrier is rusty I bet yrs bought from Russia is even more worst, not to mention more money paid and smaller. Btw, yr reply sounds desperate. Is it becos I hit on the right nerve? HahahA... From sub system to propulsion system is indigenous. Even the arrestor hook Russia refuse to sell is already install inside. Just wait for the good show in few more months time. China is more capable than copy. Even our WS-10 engine is different from AL-31F.
 
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Lol... You still treat Russian as friend after they humilitate you all by outright reject yr PM call to sanction Rd-93 re export to PAF? After they ignore the first contract sign of the carrier and MKI deal and raise the price they deem. And you Indian has no pride but bow to them and agree to whatever price Russian want? PAthetic is the only word to describe Indian defence. Cos you are desperate ano one will turn to... Haha.....

That is why RD-93 wil have no prOblem supply to PAF IN WARTIME WITH INDIA.

When did Indian Prime-Minister ask anything as such... I knew they fed you with propaganda but upto this level.. is amusing.
Russians were asking 2.9 billion USD for Gorshkov and Indian Navy wanted to keep the old price which was 2.2 billion USD... the ship was finally agreed on 2.3 billion USD.. I don't see Indians accepting the price they were asked for....rather the bargain was in favour of Indian Navy... this how weapons are sold... I don't know what is the problem with Su30MKI since they are being made @35-40million USD per plane for old model and 102million USD has been asked for the super variant quiet onvious considering the advancement of the machine to near 5th Gen. levels.

As said before those JF-17 certainly aren't much of a threat and since they are using RD-93 their dependence on Russian hardware only increases which is good for India... in a certain way.

Lol.. China share a big border with Russia. Stability is what Russia needed. Plus china Veto power in UN will come in handy as demonstrated in Syria crisis...

If PLAN carrier is rusty I bet yrs bought from Russia is even more worst, not to mention more money paid and smaller. Btw, yr reply sounds desperate. Is it becos I hit on the right nerve? HahahA... From sub system to propulsion system is indigenous. Even the arrestor hook Russia refuse to sell is already install inside. Just wait for the good show in few more months time. China is more capable than copy. Even our WS-10 engine is different from AL-31F.

Thats quiet obvious and its also a big similarity as India aslo shares a big border with China...:lol:.. still ranting on the veto power... why don't you veto the Russians basing their attack bombers and combat planes in Tajikistan alongside Indian ones and patrolling the South China sea or selling half a dozen Kilo SSK(much better than chin subs) to Vietnam... where is the strategic partnership and brotherhood going here ??...to the shanghai drain ?

Another Propaganda fail... a ship left to be scrapped from 20 years suddenly become the national pride.. If Chin buys it and paints it with sparkling colors... and you even have the mouth to compare that with a proven battle cruiser which was a nightmare to NATO Fleets... may be the Chong Lot travel agency was planning to have a CBG of their own instead of a floating hotel and a gambling parlour...:lol:... epic.
 
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It's been quite a long time, I just visit this thread and see non-sense posts which have ruined this thread and don't bother to post anything. I request moderators to take some action to maintain the thread quality.

Thank you.
 
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Kargil did take some time.. even the Americans used the bomb in final stages of war.. using the bomb so quick... would not leave any thing in Pakistan to fight for... Indian BM and SSBN strength is growing every year... don't relate it to recent development but the simultaneous development of old projects along with current ones which are being shown.



It certainly shows the amount of emotion and blind faith you have on a Chinese system.. the fact is that even PAAF doesn't use their domestic engines on their single engine planes... they are importing engines even today.. quiet obvious that even PAF refused to opt for Chinese engine but some people think they are more smart than the PLAAF and PAF commanders and engineers.

The Americans used the bomb late because they made it late... :confused: ..from then on ..the idea of Mutually assured destruction kept it from being used. the same may apply to us... for years the US built bombers upon bombers to counter what it presumed was a massive soviet bomber threat.. not knowing that soviets had been secretly moving on to missiles as their primary delivery system.. what makes you think its any different here?


Also.. your second claim on the Chinese not using domestic engines on their single engined fighters is wholly incorrect.
They've been using domestic engines for all their 3rd gen fleet..
They are still in the R&D phase when it comes to manufacturing engines in the F-100 class..
Which is why neither they or the PAF wish to use them.
 
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They've been using domestic engines for all their 3rd gen fleet..
They are still in the R&D phase when it comes to manufacturing engines in the F-100 class..
Which is why neither they or the PAF wish to use them.

Wrong! WS-10 which is F-100 class engine has enter service and not R&D. They even dare to be put it in a single engine J-10B showns the level of confident on the engine.. Not to mention at least an hundred of twin engine J-11B, J-11BS and J-15 using WS-10..

The production problem has long been solved. You see the reason why China and Pakistan talking abt FC-20 deal but never involved the Russian.. Becos, China can provided 100% indigeneous including the engine.

MIVgd.jpg


You can see the nozzle is different from AL-31F engine.. Only a mature and reliable engine can put on a single engine fighter prototype becos, if the only engine failed.. You know what will happen... WS-10 has proven on twin engine fighter like J-11B before they make the decision to test on single engine J-10B.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/84838-new-j11bs-ws-10-engine-pics-3.html

6a1fe83f39.jpg
 
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Wrong! WS-10 which is F-100 class engine has enter service and not R&D. They even dare to be put it in a single engine J-10B showns the level of confident on the engine.. Not to mention at least an hundred of twin engine J-11B, J-11BS and J-15 using WS-10..

There were reported issues in the earlier models which discouraged the PAF.. apparently though.. the one in use on the J-10B is an improved version which has impressed many here.
 
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The sale was stopped on a small issue such as the future of old Mig29 market.. forget about any thing as big as a war..:lol:

The sale was stopped????????? When exactly was that. I do not know of any stoppage / delay in supply of RD-93 for the JF-17 programme. You cannot call a few rumours of concern in some Russian quarters that Jf-17 could threaten Russian aircraft sales -- as a stoppage.
 
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