JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[SQ8]

Kickbacks.. corruption.. will ensure we still end up with a begging bowl for technology.
Many wonderful local endeavors never see the light of day because of some vested interests.

 

[nightcrawler]

Worked closely on what??
Where?
Did you work in manufacturing electronics or underwear?
your points are valid.. but to what extent.. self reliance from what??
You can go the Iranian way and have self reliance by adding a tail to an F-5 and calling it a glorious achievement.
Even then..if not for the American help in the 70's.. the Iranians could not have maintained their bell 204.. let alone manufacture them.
Give ideas to your proposal instead of shooting blanks.

Respected Santro,
I do strongly believe that we must go on in technical cooperation with china as it is the ONLY politco/economico/geo feasible option however the quality of Chinese is yet to get mature & I am not talking about Defence industry in particular.
Details to follow:

In our Faisalabad city their occurs two major chemical plants namely Sitara peroxide plant & Ibrahim polymer plant ( you can easily google them). I had the privilege to be trainee engineer in both of these & yielded a good intimacy with senior doctorate plant designers. When I ask them whether they will choose Chinese or Russian designed plant the answer was Russian. The reason was quality standards. When I asked whether American or Russian the answer was American...& the reason political pressure (not quality).

However, when compared to any above they ultimately chose some European design in conjunction with Japanese/Korean process control (electronic stuff) equipment as being the most favoured choice economically & politically....& yes both are German plants.

So the whole point is that besides overwhelming Chinese assistances, we must go towards Ukraine (Russia isn't possible), Korea or even Japan/Taiwan for defence technology transfers.
regards;;

 

[Beast]

Respected Santro,
I do strongly believe that we must go on in technical cooperation with china as it is the ONLY politco/economico/geo feasible option however the quality of Chinese is yet to get mature & I am not talking about Defence industry in particular.
Details to follow:

In our Faisalabad city their occurs two major chemical plants namely Sitara peroxide plant & Ibrahim polymer plant ( you can easily google them). I had the privilege to be trainee engineer in both of these & yielded a good intimacy with senior doctorate plant designers. When I ask them whether they will choose Chinese or Russian designed plant the answer was Russian. The reason was quality standards. When I asked whether American or Russian the answer was American...& the reason political pressure (not quality).

However, when compared to any above they ultimately chose some European design in conjunction with Japanese/Korean process control (electronic stuff) equipment as being the most favoured choice economically & politically....& yes both are German plants.

So the whole point is that besides overwhelming Chinese assistances, we must go towards Ukraine (Russia isn't possible), Korea or even Japan/Taiwan for defence technology transfers.
regards;;

Why China has a successful economy and robust manufacturing industries? Because, China cater for a lot of different level of customer.

I dare not deny China product 10-20 years ago is very bad. Cause, they believe keep product cost cheap/ product cheap is the key to selling it.

The Jiangwei class frigate deliver to Royal Thai Navy in the early 90's was bad. No doubt. But why Royal Thai Navy come back with the OPV pattani deal in the mid 2000? Royal Thai Navy doesn't exactly just look for a cheap ship. It still need to perform , right? Because the quality has improved. China manufacturing has already go up to another level.

I don't know how your experience with chemical plant may relate to military industries. But regarding Russian military stuff. Currently, it getting worst. Quality has drop badly. I don't know whether you have read Russian AL-31 engines deliver to China and India are not meeting expectation. Both India and CHina had already make the formal complaint about engine blade crack easily....

Look at last year China space record launched, 15 launch without failure. Space launched is a rocket science. Any single mistake is fatal.. What does it tells you about the standard and quality.

 

[houshanghai]

some infs from this program .

1.Perhaps,JFT will have a chinese AESA option in future
2,JFT 2-seated version have included in the plan .
3.JFT will have variety of weapons in future.
4.JFT has bright prospects and great market potential.


In this program ,One of PLA officers also visited to PAC factory kamra in April.

 

[Viper0011.]

Aurangzeb
Thank you for your post. I think one of the factors in the late development of military and other industries in Paistan is our ethos of taking the easy way out. There may have been other factors like lack of ancillary industries and manpower and expertise in the fields in question. You are absolutely right in saying that Pakistan now needs to start setting up industrial base to do in house manufacturing and this is why Thunder is such a grand project for Pakistan. Whereas the Americans and EU countries (with to some exception France and Italy) have had no personal interest in Pakistan's development China's approach is to take us along with it. However it will only go a certain way, and if we don't get of our behinds and start putting some serious elbow grease and money into our efforts, we will become the same vassal state to China as we are to USA. This is why this talk of " higher than this and deeper than that" will only take us that far.
It is however interesting to note that China 's approach with regards to our development has been different and they have helped us a lot with industrial setup, something which has not happened with EU and US. How long this continues has to be seen. I wonder how this is related to China's isolation and what will happen when this ends.
Araz

Entirely agreed. Point to be noted is that the late industrial starts is not just the reasons you outlined above, but the major fact are due to the fact that the corrupted basta*** politicians sucking the blood of a poor nation and depriving its talent population the right to a better life. Pakistan helped South Korea and Saudi Arabia put together their five year economic growth plans. Guess where they are today with OUR given growth plans and where we are? Isn't that a shame for us?
Similarly, I respect China and the U.S (for the good things they've done for us, there are some). But, also, the fact is that U.S. 'all weather friendship' slogan or Higher than Himaliya and all, sounds great. But does it feed poor nation's belly's with food and provide for a better life? No, so, we need to pretty much follow other nations such as China and India. For example, China has had a great relationship with Russia and others in setting up an industry base. Did they ever say that we are desperate and we'll just buy off you? NO!!! Same for India, they were all Russian equipment focused for decades but guess what? They never let their national interests down. They bought tot. When Pakistan had nicer cars in the country, the Indians were running that ugly Maruti but you know what? It was THEIRS and made in India helping the Indian population. Now, every freaking country wants to sell to India.

Here is the point. Pakistan is in a messy situation from a stability, peace and Taliban deal. Investors are scared and so are people living in Pakistan. BUT, the fact is that it is a country with 200 million people!!! The population is growing very fast. Tomorrow, in a few years, when Indian and Chinese markets start to get saturated, SAME Western companies will find another economy to get profits from. PAKISTAN NEEDS TO BE PREPARED FOR THAT. I push for everyone to be educated and I know people may not be able to afford it. But, again, Indians did the same, there were clerics and peons serving tea with Masters degrees. Guess what, when the Western businesses wanted to expand, they say a HUGE graduate base, educated people. BOOM, there was it for the outsourcing. That time will come for Pakistan as well. We need to become a bit more tolerant with religion and politics and respect each other as Pakistanis, use local production to gain as much know how as we can and get EDUCATED even as a religious obligation. I am MORE than positive that in next ten years, things will change and Pakistan will start to become a bigger economy. It is the sixth largest country from a population standpoint. These people do need shoes, clothes, computers, cars, etc, etc....and if we focus on LOCAL PRODUCTION, the companies will be forced to work locally as they want the piece of the profit through investment.
Point is education, education and education. There was a VERY valid reason when Prophet (SWAS) had said to go to China if you have to, to get educated. I just realized something funny, this was probably said for us as we are going towards China .

The last thing is what I'd like to point out, that we need to be smart. In today's economy and global market, you need everyone to work with you as a developing country as we need help to organize industry. I am well aware of the issues with some western countries and their approach to certain issues with Pakistan. However, we need to deal with them calmly and objectively. On some forums, I've seen violent messages about U.S. and religious sort of fatwa's against that. On the internet, when your reader could be anyone, not knowing you, they are judging the writing by the tone and the content. So a lot of think tanks, etc who come up with these different policy recommendations, don't actually go and live in Pakistan. They use internet a lot. So, toning down the anti Western rhetoric will help us in the long run. Remember, the problem is in our house with the corrupted leaders and not really with America or the English. It is the leadership who used the aid for their purposes instead of taking the country forward, it is the leadership who can't sell the country's talent to get investment and it is the leadership who doesn't want to convey the proper message and it is the leadership who's appointed freaking foreigners at the most sensitive roles from a national security standpoint. Americans can work with Pakistanis just as they can work with the Indians, respecting their opinion, but you need to learn that dialogue process and uneducated politicians can't do that. You need educated people to debate properly and put your point across objectively. Hope this helped anyone. If one person got my points, I think I fulfilled a big purpose in this blessed month!!!
Let's go back to JFT please before mods will either ban me or kick me out for deviating from the topic

 

[SQ8]

Respected Santro,
I do strongly believe that we must go on in technical cooperation with china as it is the ONLY politco/economico/geo feasible option however the quality of Chinese is yet to get mature & I am not talking about Defence industry in particular.
Details to follow:

In our Faisalabad city their occurs two major chemical plants namely Sitara peroxide plant & Ibrahim polymer plant ( you can easily google them). I had the privilege to be trainee engineer in both of these & yielded a good intimacy with senior doctorate plant designers. When I ask them whether they will choose Chinese or Russian designed plant the answer was Russian. The reason was quality standards. When I asked whether American or Russian the answer was American...& the reason political pressure (not quality).

However, when compared to any above they ultimately chose some European design in conjunction with Japanese/Korean process control (electronic stuff) equipment as being the most favoured choice economically & politically....& yes both are German plants.

So the whole point is that besides overwhelming Chinese assistances, we must go towards Ukraine (Russia isn't possible), Korea or even Japan/Taiwan for defence technology transfers.
regards;;

That you must.. However.. in light of hurdles faced in acquiring such stuff. And the existence of only one alternative... i.e the Chinese. you Must choose them.
Also, unlike the Koreans or Europeans where they generally tend to withhold critical information so to avoid patent infringement..
The chinese let you know everything, which you can look at.. and find improvements to .. and send it back.
Moreover, since you were able to look at that particular piece of Chinese tech which was say on a scale of 1-10 at 4..
and you remember using something from a european source that was at 7.. You take some info from your European purchase.. make ideas for the Chinese to amend their product.. and end up with the same 7 at 1/5th of the cost.

And in your case..cost is a prime factor.

 

[A.Muqeet khan]

Entirely agreed. Point to be noted is that the late industrial starts is not just the reasons you outlined above, but the major fact are due to the fact that the corrupted basta*** politicians sucking the blood of a poor nation and depriving its talent population the right to a better life. Pakistan helped South Korea and Saudi Arabia put together their five year economic growth plans. Guess where they are today with OUR given growth plans and where we are? Isn't that a shame for us?
Similarly, I respect China and the U.S (for the good things they've done for us, there are some). But, also, the fact is that U.S. 'all weather friendship' slogan or Higher than Himaliya and all, sounds great. But does it feed poor nation's belly's with food and provide for a better life? No, so, we need to pretty much follow other nations such as China and India. For example, China has had a great relationship with Russia and others in setting up an industry base. Did they ever say that we are desperate and we'll just buy off you? NO!!! Same for India, they were all Russian equipment focused for decades but guess what? They never let their national interests down. They bought tot. When Pakistan had nicer cars in the country, the Indians were running that ugly Maruti but you know what? It was THEIRS and made in India helping the Indian population. Now, every freaking country wants to sell to India.

Here is the point. Pakistan is in a messy situation from a stability, peace and Taliban deal. Investors are scared and so are people living in Pakistan. BUT, the fact is that it is a country with 200 million people!!! The population is growing very fast. Tomorrow, in a few years, when Indian and Chinese markets start to get saturated, SAME Western companies will find another economy to get profits from. PAKISTAN NEEDS TO BE PREPARED FOR THAT. I push for everyone to be educated and I know people may not be able to afford it. But, again, Indians did the same, there were clerics and peons serving tea with Masters degrees. Guess what, when the Western businesses wanted to expand, they say a HUGE graduate base, educated people. BOOM, there was it for the outsourcing. That time will come for Pakistan as well. We need to become a bit more tolerant with religion and politics and respect each other as Pakistanis, use local production to gain as much know how as we can and get EDUCATED even as a religious obligation. I am MORE than positive that in next ten years, things will change and Pakistan will start to become a bigger economy. It is the sixth largest country from a population standpoint. These people do need shoes, clothes, computers, cars, etc, etc....and if we focus on LOCAL PRODUCTION, the companies will be forced to work locally as they want the piece of the profit through investment.
Point is education, education and education. There was a VERY valid reason when Prophet (SWAS) had said to go to China if you have to, to get educated. I just realized something funny, this was probably said for us as we are going towards China .

The last thing is what I'd like to point out, that we need to be smart. In today's economy and global market, you need everyone to work with you as a developing country as we need help to organize industry. I am well aware of the issues with some western countries and their approach to certain issues with Pakistan. However, we need to deal with them calmly and objectively. On some forums, I've seen violent messages about U.S. and religious sort of fatwa's against that. On the internet, when your reader could be anyone, not knowing you, they are judging the writing by the tone and the content. So a lot of think tanks, etc who come up with these different policy recommendations, don't actually go and live in Pakistan. They use internet a lot. So, toning down the anti Western rhetoric will help us in the long run. Remember, the problem is in our house with the corrupted leaders and not really with America or the English. It is the leadership who used the aid for their purposes instead of taking the country forward, it is the leadership who can't sell the country's talent to get investment and it is the leadership who doesn't want to convey the proper message and it is the leadership who's appointed freaking foreigners at the most sensitive roles from a national security standpoint. Americans can work with Pakistanis just as they can work with the Indians, respecting their opinion, but you need to learn that dialogue process and uneducated politicians can't do that. You need educated people to debate properly and put your point across objectively. Hope this helped anyone. If one person got my points, I think I fulfilled a big purpose in this blessed month!!!
Let's go back to JFT please before mods will either ban me or kick me out for deviating from the topic

i dont know about the others dear but i am really glad to see you joining this forum keep up the good work

 

[HANI]

Look at some indian media reports about our jf-17
JF-17 Thunder vs LCA Tejas {Indian media exposed] - YouTube

---------- Post added at 04:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------

Answer to Indian media propaganda about JF-17 Thunder - YouTube

 

[Viper0011.]

Look at some indian media reports about our jf-17
JF-17 Thunder vs LCA Tejas {Indian media exposed] - YouTube

---------- Post added at 04:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:36 PM ----------

Answer to Indian media propaganda about JF-17 Thunder - YouTube

These are pretty old and honestly, not even worth posting. The Indian media serves their purpose so no need to be upset at that.

If the dude in the flight simulator video could drop his jump-starting thick south Indian accent, I might've had a little bit more interest in actually hearing him out. It felt like a small earth quake of English words as he talked in his jumpy Indian accent trying to act like he's from the Indian CNN and comparing the JFT to whatever his imagination was..(the lca aka, the light crap aircraft may be )

 

[muse]

I am looking forward to some sort of accurate illustration of the JFT block II, especially the retractable refueling probe and especially good news on the possibility of a new more powerful engine

 

[Viper0011.]

Does anyone know the status on SD-10B integration with JFT's already flying with the PAF? I know the SD-10's were tested in China a while ago but not sure if this has been completed in Pak yet.

Also, any pics and accurate news on JFT BII would be appreciated

 

[Imran Khan]

 

[razgriz19]

Does anyone know the status on SD-10B integration with JFT's already flying with the PAF? I know the SD-10's were tested in China a while ago but not sure if this has been completed in Pak yet.

Also, any pics and accurate news on JFT BII would be appreciated

well as far as i know we wont see any SD-10s in the first 48 aircrafts or so.
that means we're gonna have to wait atleast a year before we see block II with SD-10 in PAF service.
i think PAC has completed around (more or less) 30 Thunders...

 

[Viper0011.]

well as far as i know we wont see any SD-10s in the first 48 aircrafts or so.
that means we're gonna have to wait atleast a year before we see block II with SD-10 in PAF service.
i think PAC has completed around (more or less) 30 Thunders...

Ok, thank you. I am a little confused though and havn't been in touch with my paf contacts for a month or so. I thought the plans were to get SD-10A introduced as quickly as possible, especially given the situation on the Western border now (and JFT being based out of Peshawar initially).
So the Block I will not have SD-10's at all or will they introduce SD-10 into Block I later? Details please...

 

[Last Hope]

well as far as i know we wont see any SD-10s in the first 48 aircrafts or so.
that means we're gonna have to wait atleast a year before we see block II with SD-10 in PAF service.
i think PAC has completed around (more or less) 30 Thunders...

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, at Kamra has completed 26 JF-17 Thunders.

And about SD-10, we have got certain pictures of the prototypes of JF-17s and JF-17s holding SD-10s. Here are a couple:

The last one, I believe, is a prototype of JF-17.

Additional info: Jf-17 is being checked out with WS-13 engine.