JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[SQ8]

i have to say sorry if some one is hurt but being in china for so many time what i felt i wrote and i worked closely with chinese so i better know the things i am not against china but i want that we should be indeginious , in this forums there are so many kids who even dont know about realities , i dont want to introduce myself , and i need not to ! otherwise my introduction is enough to keep you people shut up ! show some ettiquates please

Worked closely on what??
Where?
Did you work in manufacturing electronics or underwear?
your points are valid.. but to what extent.. self reliance from what??
You can go the Iranian way and have self reliance by adding a tail to an F-5 and calling it a glorious achievement.
Even then..if not for the American help in the 70's.. the Iranians could not have maintained their bell 204.. let alone manufacture them.
Give ideas to your proposal instead of shooting blanks.

 

[Viper0011.]

From my past experience here. There is indeed certain number of Indian imposting themselves as Pakistan flying Pakistan flag , claiming themselves living in Pakistan. But their out right motive is to ruin the friendship between Pakistan and China. Trying to sow discord. There is no doubt China aid to Pakistan in military or financial loan are important for the surivival of Pakistan. And there is no doubt that a weak Pakistan benefit India most. With a weak Pakistan, India can easily bully Pakistan in submission and forced Pakistan into unfavourable position whatever they deem.

This imposter will treat Chinese with contempt claiming Chinese are bad. Their technology backward. Claiming western stuff superior but every Pakistan knows that western countries is getting more and more critical of Pakistan and try to meddle into Pakistan governing. Dealing military deal with this countries is like playing with fire. As long as they deem you are not right. They have no obligation to honour any of their agreement with Pakistan.

And there is no denying the speedy advancement of China , technology or economic. China has already reach a world stage. This greatly put India at a massive advantage who in no way match China either in military or economic. Jealousy sow and underhand method is best use to trying to reduce China influence in world stage and friendship with her allies. In fact, the more closer Pakistan cling to China, the better she is. As what some member opposed.

Alright, so here is how we lose objectivity. I see an Australian flag on your post above and then a Chinese flag. I respect both. However, I don't think you have ANY GD right to tell me or anyone who I am or am not. In fact, respect China a lot because of its relationship with Pakistan but I don't respect stupidity. Your post comes in the later category.

Where in my post did you smell something from India dude? In fact, if I was an Indian or presenting an Indian point of view, I would WANT Pakistan to be another client state of whoever, USA or someone else. That's in India's best interest. But since I have Pakistani background, I want PAKISTAN's national interests BEYOND anyone else !!!

Just like you guys are hesitant in Selling KJ-2000 and J-20 to Pakistan because of your national interests and USA won't sell F 22 to others because of hers. I am very well connected to the global military developments so try not to change my comments above in a different direction as I mentioned the reality.

Now back to my post and agreeing with the previous person's post before, THAT'S how EVERY Pakistani should think. PAKISTAN FIRST. Hope you get that.

As far as China, having Pakistani background, I am grateful for China's help and cooperation and I know every Pakistani is. BUT, I want Pakistan to now learn the trade that it didn't learn for over six decades of being a client state of the U.S (I am an American also and I love America as well as Pakistan). But my Pakistani heritage tells me that Pakistan needs to understand and implement one thing: "Local Production". It may or may not be the case in everything they right now buy, but if they can produce 80% of expensive military or non military products, they can create a well balanced industry, jobs and growth. All of which ACTUALLY help China as it will have a stronger ally next door so more security for China and for Pakistan both. How is this "negative" in anyway shape or form? or even against China or Sino-Pak friendship? I think these two countries have always been friends and long live both.

But again, Pakistan needs to control the flow of money and buy smarter through TOT. China needs buyers for its products. If Pakistan can negotiate well, it can do what China did to Russia, it can buy from China with TOT and utilize its own industries to the extent it can. How is this Indian or against China? I think people of Pakistan want Pakistani industry to grow and that's what I am talking about as well!!!

Hope I made myself clear. I absolutely hate it when people try to wordsmith someone's simple posts into a political issue and take the whole thread away.
Let's continue with the conversation on JF-17 with mutual respect to everyone. Thanks

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

i have to say sorry if some one is hurt but being in china for so many time what i felt i wrote and i worked closely with chinese so i better know the things i am not against china but i want that we should be indeginious , in this forums there are so many kids who even dont know about realities , i dont want to introduce myself , and i need not to ! otherwise my introduction is enough to keep you people shut up ! show some ettiquates please

you need some treatment.
your arguments show that you are trying to fool every body here.
come on put a tap on your mouth.
looks to me some covert indian as per your arguments. shut your sarcastic comments.

 

[Usama86]

Mr. Orangzaib, the best thing Pakistan can do right now is become China's Canada, since you are from the US you will know what i mean. The self-reliance and 80% home production things sound really good but we have to work very hard in the right direction for a few decades to achieve all that. We will need a strong China at our side as we grow because we have bigger adversaries.

 

[muse]

Dear respected member,

When you go to buy a steak---you don't have to put our head into the bull's ar-se---you take the butcher's word for it.

America has never bragged about its capabilities ever before---and it is not going to do it now---its millitary equipment has always delieverd more than promised----.

The negative that you hear about the F 22 may just be a part of the deception and nothing more.

Perhaps it's more fair to say that the quality of training provided it's air crews is at least as important as the aircraft they are provided and of course there is an entire way of fighting a particular war to it - While Soviet or Russian aircraft were in some instances even superior to US aircraft, the training provided their clients and the inability to conceive of these aircraft and their air crews in a integrated way of war doctrine.

 

[fatman17]

Perhaps it's more fair to say that the quality of training provided it's air crews is at least as important as the aircraft they are provided and of course there is an entire way of fighting a particular war to it - While Soviet or Russian aircraft were in some instances even superior to US aircraft, the training provided their clients and the inability to conceive of these aircraft and their air crews in a integrated way of war doctrine.

quite right, arab pilots screwing up v. the israelis while PAF pilots flying the same a/c were able to 'kill' the far superior IDAF a/c in the arab-israeli context. IAF has also fared better than the arab airforces using soviet equipment.

 

[MastanKhan]

Perhaps it's more fair to say that the quality of training provided it's air crews is at least as important as the aircraft they are provided and of course there is an entire way of fighting a particular war to it - While Soviet or Russian aircraft were in some instances even superior to US aircraft, the training provided their clients and the inability to conceive of these aircraft and their air crews in a integrated way of war doctrine.

Muse,

At this stage---in the 21st century---it is taken for granted that an F22 pilot--and F 15 pilot---an F 16 pilot serving in the USAF is a superior pilot just by the process of selection---it is taken for granted that training provided is top notch----there is no second grade treaing provided to these pilots----.

And neither does the IAF provide second rate training to its SU 30 pilots----that was just for general information---.


You are right----there is a special way to fight this air war with the F22----it is totally different than the air war as we knew of it-----the F 22 will be fighting from its position of strength---ie---from long range---beyond the edge of visibility----. The mind has to learn to accept that superiority of the adversary---it is the same dillema that a force commander has on land when facing an unknown sniper shooting from a 1000 yards---2000 yds---2500 yards away---and him having no long range weapons----.

 

[MastanKhan]

quite right, arab pilots screwing up v. the israelis while PAF pilots flying the same a/c were able to 'kill' the far superior IDAF a/c in the arab-israeli context. IAF has also fared better than the arab airforces using soviet equipment.

Sir,

Please---kindly---the air war and air combat has moved away from stone age skirmishes of obsolete technology a longtime ago----. Now is the war between haves and have nots----.

All people who have it are technically capable to be sitting in those cockpits. Thank you.

 

[muse]

Sir,

Please---kindly---the air war and air combat has moved away from stone age skirmishes of obsolete technology a longtime ago----. Now is the war between haves and have nots----.

All people who have it are technically capable to be sitting in those cockpits. Thank you.

Must have missed something in the translation. The point being made was that success was a sum of the parts, Doctrine (way of war), the hardware and the training - and not just the hardware.

 

[Viper0011.]

Actually, knowing USAF well, the doctrine they use for F-15 is very different than for pilots going to be flying the Viper. Similarly, the doctrine used for F-18 is also different and so is the training. Moving on to F-22, you are talking about a whole different level of training. Statistics show that F-15 was able to down half a squadron before getting locked on. Then, the F-22 had successfully locked on and shot down almost a whole squadron of F-15's before they could actually see it. The RCS is almost similar to a DIME thrown or flying in the air and the Dime is the smallest coin. So you can imagine. Second, there are a ton of very sensitive equipments loaded in the F-22 that are used during certain missions. There is a reason that you will not see more than 500 F-22 tops EVEN IF the budget was authorized. Right now, this number is below 187 and the Secretary of Defense has said it to the congress that even the current 'low' number is enough to maintain air superiority (in case of a need) over multiple sectors (All Asia including North Korea, China and Japan, South Asia, Russia and the Arabian desert). So, this level of training is for selective few and probably the most intensive and confidential out there. F-22 is not just a jet with Stealth body. It is a multi-role air superiority, SIGINT, AWACS and a lot of other platforms combined into one plane. I doubt that the details of this plane's capabilities will ever made public. Or may be not for at least next 10 years. Stuff that's available on LM or other equipment manufacturer's site is for export only so you'll never hear 'what else' is part of it if that makes any sense.

At the end of the day, it is a combination of a very extensive Man-Machine work flow integration. The 'man' has to be trained beyond imagination before allowing him to even fly routine flights on this beast.

On a side note, I feel bad as we are going far away from the JF-17 topic. I was here for that actually so let's please focus back on it.

I am VERY curious to see some new pics or JFT (may be block II diamond cone nose?) and some new details on SD-10B integration in Pakistan. Does anyone has pics and details? Please share....

 

[Viper0011.]

Mr. Orangzaib, the best thing Pakistan can do right now is become China's Canada, since you are from the US you will know what i mean. The self-reliance and 80% home production things sound really good but we have to work very hard in the right direction for a few decades to achieve all that. We will need a strong China at our side as we grow because we have bigger adversaries.

Mr. Osama86: You've said it yourself. Pakistan needs to be Chinese Canada. I COMPLETELY agree with it. That's exactly what I was trying to say. However, you may want to know that Canada has its own economy. For example, when the financial markets melted the hell down from 2008-2010, Canada was among a couple of countries across the world that weren't impacted as they have their own systems.

The point is, Canada is a separate country and it does free "BILATERAL" trade with the U.S. Meaning both country buy and sell products to each other not just one country buying everything from the other. Isn't that what happened with the U.S. for over six decades?
'Bilateral Trade' is what I was talking about when I said focus on local production. Buy from the Chinese and get the co-production / TOT rights. Not just buy it because the senior politicians get kick backs. Look at India (no, I am not an Indian but I am in global businesses for a long time so I do deal with other countries). So, India for years didn't buy any foreign equipment unless it comes with TOT. Result, you boost your local economy. So, similarly, Pakistan has a much weakened financial system. Buy buying from China and MAKING China invest into Pakistani economy, you'll create jobs and eventually move to a more stable state and it will help with internal stability and to control the whole political and religious mess the country's in as people will have jobs and their focus will be to get a better life for their families instead of getting involved in crimes, etc (look at Karachi). So local production may be difficult to consider, but remember, nothing is given in a plate. You have to make it happen. Someone somewhere has to start thinking about what helps the country financially and helps in betterment of its people's lives.
As far working hard is concerned, yes, hard work is and will always be needed. If you Google American labor's productivity, you'll be shocked how much people work in this country but then there is reward. America wasn't always like this, especially post WWII, people made it the superpower and those people were not too much more than Pakistan's population (U.S is about 330 million and Pakistan is almost 200 million). So if Pakistani focus for a few decades and work hard and if they achieve half the size of U.S's economy due to smaller population...imagine where the country would be. BUT, people need to focus on getting work in Pakistan. Not just pay for it. This is not just for Chinese products, I am saying it in general.
But China can help Pakistan manufacturer small things easily and still make a profit by selling it out under made in China and plus, joint venture with Pakistan on military projects (some of them are already underway). Is Pakistani leadership interested in doing these things for the betterment of Pakistan? God forbid if Pakistani people start becoming real educated and the economy starts to take off....who's going to vote for them as people will start to understand what they've been put under for over six decades by these bast**** politicians!!! These politicians should be treated as treason criminals as they are wasting such a talented nation and dividing it into hate, religion and politics!!

I think we should open a different thread on these issues as they don't pertain to this thread. If you guys want to debate about it, PM me and I'll open up a new thread on economic growth and local production. Otherwise, we should get back to JF-17 as this was the thread to discuss everything about JFT>

 

[MastanKhan]

Must have missed something in the translation. The point being made was that success was a sum of the parts, Doctrine (way of war), the hardware and the training - and not just the hardware.

Hi,

No disrespect---yes you missed and 'orangzaib put it right-----. In order for you to get to that hardware----you have already crossed that pleateau of mediocrity to get to that pleateau of excellence---pure and simple----.

The problem we are facing over here is that the hardware has taken the combat to a totally different pleateau never heard of before----where the current generation of F 22's would be the last of the breed---and the next generation plane would be without pilots----.

The video game screen has taken this air battle to places not known by man just a few years ago----and the average man is totally lost and he cannot comprehend what is happening around himbehind the machine---and he is still arguing about "THAT" man .

Did you know that in the first gulf war---the some of the iraqi pilots who's planes got hit by phoenix missiles didnot even know when they died---when the missile was launched from 50 plus miles away and it went up and came down at what 3000 mph---their radars didnot even have the strength to acknowledge the launch---they had no clue when that massive AA missile hit them----that is why it is said---those pilots didnot even know when they died.

It is a simple mathematical solution---if you have abundance of pilots and different category of planes to fly---then the creme de la creme will be flying the top best aircraft---the competition to get to that top spot would be so severe that even the bottom of the barrell would be top notch performers by default just to have survived the training for an airforce like the usaf.

So--if you can manage and operate that kind of machine on a regular basis---you already got the stuff.

 

[muse]

I follow the mismatch better - thanks for clarifying it.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Don't want to distract the thread to those that question F-22 its already gearing towards (might already have started) Level II 5th+ generation upgrades.

 

[araz]

Alright, so here is how we lose objectivity. I see an Australian flag on your post above and then a Chinese flag. I respect both. However, I don't think you have ANY GD right to tell me or anyone who I am or am not. In fact, respect China a lot because of its relationship with Pakistan but I don't respect stupidity. Your post comes in the later category.

Where in my post did you smell something from India dude? In fact, if I was an Indian or presenting an Indian point of view, I would WANT Pakistan to be another client state of whoever, USA or someone else. That's in India's best interest. But since I have Pakistani background, I want PAKISTAN's national interests BEYOND anyone else !!!

Just like you guys are hesitant in Selling KJ-2000 and J-20 to Pakistan because of your national interests and USA won't sell F 22 to others because of hers. I am very well connected to the global military developments so try not to change my comments above in a different direction as I mentioned the reality.

Now back to my post and agreeing with the previous person's post before, THAT'S how EVERY Pakistani should think. PAKISTAN FIRST. Hope you get that.

As far as China, having Pakistani background, I am grateful for China's help and cooperation and I know every Pakistani is. BUT, I want Pakistan to now learn the trade that it didn't learn for over six decades of being a client state of the U.S (I am an American also and I love America as well as Pakistan). But my Pakistani heritage tells me that Pakistan needs to understand and implement one thing: "Local Production". It may or may not be the case in everything they right now buy, but if they can produce 80% of expensive military or non military products, they can create a well balanced industry, jobs and growth. All of which ACTUALLY help China as it will have a stronger ally next door so more security for China and for Pakistan both. How is this "negative" in anyway shape or form? or even against China or Sino-Pak friendship? I think these two countries have always been friends and long live both.

But again, Pakistan needs to control the flow of money and buy smarter through TOT. China needs buyers for its products. If Pakistan can negotiate well, it can do what China did to Russia, it can buy from China with TOT and utilize its own industries to the extent it can. How is this Indian or against China? I think people of Pakistan want Pakistani industry to grow and that's what I am talking about as well!!!

Hope I made myself clear. I absolutely hate it when people try to wordsmith someone's simple posts into a political issue and take the whole thread away.
Let's continue with the conversation on JF-17 with mutual respect to everyone. Thanks

Aurangzeb
Thank you for your post. I think one of the factors in the late development of military and other industries in Paistan is our ethos of taking the easy way out. There may have been other factors like lack of ancillary industries and manpower and expertise in the fields in question. You are absolutely right in saying that Pakistan now needs to start setting up industrial base to do in house manufacturing and this is why Thunder is such a grand project for Pakistan. Whereas the Americans and EU countries (with to some exception France and Italy) have had no personal interest in Pakistan's development China's approach is to take us along with it. However it will only go a certain way, and if we don't get of our behinds and start putting some serious elbow grease and money into our efforts, we will become the same vassal state to China as we are to USA. This is why this talk of " higher than this and deeper than that" will only take us that far.
It is however interesting to note that China 's approach with regards to our development has been different and they have helped us a lot with industrial setup, something which has not happened with EU and US. How long this continues has to be seen. I wonder how this is related to China's isolation and what will happen when this ends.
Araz