JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[darkinsky]

excuse me can any body like to share jf-17 block 2 real pictures and development, somebody said its coming up in 6 months time??

 

[PakShaheen79]

Hi,

See----see what the deployment of 18 BLK 52's have done----now can you imagine if the paf had gone for a 100 of these in 2002 and asked delivery within 2---3 years on fast track----.

We would have had a peace deal with india by now---. That is what a major weapons purchase has to do---amraam 120 is a game changer.

Paf fcuked up at that time----its analysis stated that the peace deal with india is inevitable---that is why no reason to waste the money.

The stupid didnot realize that it was due to the open fighter aircraft market for pakistan, that india realized, it is futile to keep on fighting pakistan---because paf will be back at full strength---but when they saw paf faltering being wishy washy, india went back to doing what it does.

In war timing is every thing----. Napoleon lost his major battle because his flank delayed its onslaught by one minute---when you lose your moment---you lose your battles.

JF 17 still doesnot have a BVR in 2012---it will be another 3--5 years from now. If paf had played its hand right---we would have had BLK 52's and aim 120's between 2004---2006---.

Throug out all this discussion---I see that you people ave no concept of TIME.

And you neglected all the force multipliers which PAF got during that time like IFR, AWACS, SAM, etc. The amount of resources and time spent on these to incorporate them into PAF operational plans. Did PAF got all that free of cost? Or you thing TIME was not right for these things?

And sorry I am also not ready to accept that Rafale was the last thing on planet to buy .... still options are there and no one has put any kind of sanctions on PAF. Typhoons are there to buy so is German subs .... Do we have economy to afford them answer is no. Plus the boosted economy which you kept on hinting during Mush period was all speculations.... Remember what one press conference of Ishaq Dar back in 2008 did once that scumbag Mushrraf was removed.... Oh, I see... you can't remember that due to obvious reasons... because it is from some other TIME!

We have Block 52s now and 500 AIM-120C as well .... So what is point in having them four years ago when there was no war with India... Plus let me tell you, your entire idea about getting F-16s for the military bases to the US is based on a dangerous assumptions and it also tells how little you know about warfare.

India went back to doing what it does because they have to deal with a much larger problem known as China .... a country running most number of fighter jet programs in the world where Indians are struggling with 30 years old LCA dilemma. So going for foreign fighters is only choice left for them as they failed to make their own.

You wants PAF to have Power projection capabilities that can become a tool of foreign policy like major powers do to push and protect their strategic interests .... I am not against that thought .... but let me tell you, this is something which can only be done by establishing your own defense industries not by buying expensive toys. Moresoever, you will have to change the entire defense paradigm of the country to get their ... mere latest jets will not enable you to do that!

M2K deal was not thrashed by PAF rather it was Mr. 10% who played a major role in pushing the price so high that PAF had to back off at that TIME!

 

[PakShaheen79]

Don't talk nonsense here.

China has acquired Russian engines to the amount of $500 million - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

123 is not a small number by any imagination.... I can name at least half a dozen Russian Engines.. like.

Al-41
Al-31FN-M2/3
Item 117
Al-31FN
Item 117C
Item 129
Type 30
RD-33

Which China can only dream of.. even the 1st PTs of J-10B and J-11B flew with Russian Al-31FN engines.. what are you trying to prove here.... the PAF going for RD-93 over WS-13 Itself shows the status of Chinese turbofan industry.

RD-93 was being stopped from sale by Russia due to Indian lobbying in peace time.. now with the poor TBO... and servicebility issues due you expect the Russians to do the same in case of a war with India.

In IAF they keep spare RD-33 engines since its TBO is very low at 500 hours and the Mig 29 is designed as such that they change the whole engine in no time.... can PAF be assured of RD-93 supplies in war time so that say all 100 or so JF-17s are flying without any issues of spare engines or engine parts... or an over haul facility where they can repair engine without Russian help.

123 is not that big either .... by looking at the number of platforms it will be used on J-10A, J-11, Spares, J-15 etc.

Sir, sustaining supplies of engines in event of war is agreed by China and it's China with who we developed JFT not Russia and if Russians have no problem with Pakistan getting J-10 with Al-31F then what are you trying to prove here?

 

[DARKY]

123 is not that big either .... by looking at the number of platforms it will be used on J-10A, J-11, Spares, J-15 etc.

Sir, sustaining supplies of engines in event of war is agreed by China and it's China with who we developed JFT not Russia and if Russians have no problem with Pakistan getting J-10 with Al-31F then what are you trying to prove here?

Older planes have separate order being met.. this is a new order of 123 engines to be supplied until 2013 for new J-10 weather it would be J-10A/B is another issue.

J-11 uses WS-10 as said by Chinese members and J-15 is still in PT stages.

Where would China sustain the supplies If its blocked by Russia... In past Russians have blocked the supply.. what would China do If they do it again in future... and in worst case during conflicts with PAF highly dependent on JF-17.

Lets limit this to JF-17 and RD-93... J-10 is a another story.

 

[TAC]

Sir,

God almighty---you are thick---not all defence deals are made with absorbing technical knowledge right away---a lots of major defence deals are made for FORCE PROJECTION---getting the populace emotionally involved in the item in question---changing the mindset of the populace---changing the image of america in pakistan.

Khudaya---who needs enemies for pakistan when it own children are chopping up the roots------have you people seen the weapons purchase by the middle east nations.

PAF has fooled itself and fooled the nation in keeping by the idea of minimum deterence. Minimum deterences have never worked.

Have you put any technical post yet---with your own analysis---why it was such and how should it be----.

Anybody over here thinks---that if we had 2 sqdrn's of F16's sitting on our tarmacs within 3 to 6 months of us giving bases to the u s---you would have thought of the americans differently---or how how 2-3 sqdrn's of F18's shoved down our throats by the americans in the first two years.

I haven't said it recently---but here it is again---there are two fools joined at the hips in this relationship---one is pakistan---but an equally bigger fool is the americans---.

Pakistan cannot tell what is good for it even if its life depends on it----the americans get into ' I am stupid mode ' when they deal with pakistan.

Although proudly presented as an answer to my points, none of your post has got any relevance to my points. Frankly most of your post doesn't even make sense, with you repeatedly jumping from one bizarre point to the next unrelated bizarre point. For the fourth time of asking where is your source to confirm that Pakistan had so much money after 9/11 that it didn't know where to spend it - or would you now like to admit that this was just some rubish that you made up like all the other dumb points you dream up?

I have no issues making technical points -- but just to clarify -- do you want my technical points to be like your 'technical and strategic points' -- points like Pakistanis lack intelligence, Pakistanis do not have the balls to talk to white people, Everyone on this forum other than you does not have a mind of their own and just believes what their dad and / or dadha abu tells them. O and also technical and strategic points about flees in elephants ears. These are your 'technical and strategic points' and you accuse me of being thick???

The PAF has not fooled anyone. They had no choice - infact Pakistan as a whole had no choice - but to go for a strategy of 'credible minimum detterance' due to lack of resources (unless we believe your nonesense about having so much money that they didn't know where to spend it). While Pakistan has done well in achieving this goal-- the PAF in particular has done a astonishingly brilliant job despite very limited resources. The JF-17 is a master stroke. They got a modern fighter designed to their exact operational requirements, got china to fund most of the development for them, got the first 100 on cheap credit, got the Russian engine against all odds and gave their local aviation industry a huge boost. As for the high end they are building upto a fleet of 60+ modern F-16's topped up with at least 36 FC-20's expected around 2014 (as per interview of former ACM). By the time the threat grows eg Rafale etc you will see the numbers and capabilities of JF-17's and FC-20's grow to counter. So stop bleating on about how PAF has fooled the nation.

 

[Edevelop]

Just a quick question. Can Al-31 engine be fitted to JF-17??

 

[TAC]

Hi,

See----see what the deployment of 18 BLK 52's have done----now can you imagine if the paf had gone for a 100 of these in 2002 and asked delivery within 2---3 years on fast track----.

We would have had a peace deal with india by now---. That is what a major weapons purchase has to do---amraam 120 is a game changer.

Paf fcuked up at that time----its analysis stated that the peace deal with india is inevitable---that is why no reason to waste the money.

The stupid didnot realize that it was due to the open fighter aircraft market for pakistan, that india realized, it is futile to keep on fighting pakistan---because paf will be back at full strength---but when they saw paf faltering being wishy washy, india went back to doing what it does.

In war timing is every thing----. Napoleon lost his major battle because his flank delayed its onslaught by one minute---when you lose your moment---you lose your battles.

JF 17 still doesnot have a BVR in 2012---it will be another 3--5 years from now. If paf had played its hand right---we would have had BLK 52's and aim 120's between 2004---2006---.

Through out all this discussion---I see that you people ave no concept of TIME.

Do you know how much 100 F-16 BLOCK 52's would cost? - even if the U.S. was willing to supply them in 2002 which they were not --- $10-12 billion. On June 15th 2002 Pakistans total foriegn exchange reserves hit a high point of $6 billion. Even if they handed over all their foriegn reserves and went bankrupt who was going to pay the remaining $6 billion??? Also 100 F-16'Ss in 2/3 years fast track?? Theres this thing called an order book and production schedule - they don't just drop everything and start churning out PAF f-16's, and you think others have no concept of time?? I'll let other members decide whether it was PAF that was 'stupid' for not getting 100 F-16's in 2002

jf-17 Pt-04 has been pictured in China carrying the SD-10 in test flights. You think that completion of testing of an in service misile on an in service fighter will take 3-5 years???

 

[TAC]

Older planes have separate order being met.. this is a new order of 123 engines to be supplied until 2013 for new J-10 weather it would be J-10A/B is another issue.

J-11 uses WS-10 as said by Chinese members and J-15 is still in PT stages.

Where would China sustain the supplies If its blocked by Russia... In past Russians have blocked the supply.. what would China do If they do it again in future... and in worst case during conflicts with PAF highly dependent on JF-17.

Lets limit this to JF-17 and RD-93... J-10 is a another story.

China is in the advanced stages of testing its substitute for the RD-93 - with one aircraft being tested with the new powerplant in China. As for Russia blocking supply - they are letting Pakistan have as many of these engines as it wants despite Indias desperate efforts to the contrary --- so I wouldn't worry too much.

 

[Beast]

Don't talk nonsense here.

China has acquired Russian engines to the amount of $500 million - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

123 is not a small number by any imagination.... I can name at least half a dozen Russian Engines.. like.

Al-41
Al-31FN-M2/3
Item 117
Al-31FN
Item 117C
Item 129
Type 30
RD-33

Which China can only dream of.. even the 1st PTs of J-10B and J-11B flew with Russian Al-31FN engines.. what are you trying to prove here.... the PAF going for RD-93 over WS-13 Itself shows the status of Chinese turbofan industry.

RD-93 was being stopped from sale by Russia due to Indian lobbying in peace time.. now with the poor TBO... and servicebility issues due you expect the Russians to do the same in case of a war with India.

In IAF they keep spare RD-33 engines since its TBO is very low at 500 hours and the Mig 29 is designed as such that they change the whole engine in no time.... can PAF be assured of RD-93 supplies in war time so that say all 100 or so JF-17s are flying without any issues of spare engines or engine parts... or an over haul facility where they can repair engine without Russian help.

It's a great way for you to twist the facts. U mention PT 01 of j-10B is using AL-31FN engine. Why didn't you mention PT 03 of J-10B is run by WS -10?

If you bother to read the link provided , it mention it's AL-31FN which can only used on J-10 becos it has the Chinese specification of modifying the gearbox below. So tell me where do new J-11B, J-11BS and J-15 aircraft get their engine? Drop from sky? China flanker fleet is getting bigger and bigger.
Now the Russian come back with an better offer for J-10A engine and Russia / china relation is at all time high. Why would china be afraid of sanction in long term?
Since J-11 is using twin engine and is causing consider demand on domestic engine supply and Russia is offering a good deal why shall China reject?

On JF-17, haven you Indian eat enough humble pie regarding Rd-93 sanction? Russia deals with china and not Pakistan. Russia values china relationship so much it can ignore India futile call to stop the RD-93 engines re export to PAF. Until now u Indian still has not give up this claim? If Russia really care abt India, RD-93 engine export will long ago be blocked. Please accept the reality. Russia values china more than India. This is a hard fact.

 

[Beast]

Just a quick question. Can Al-31 engine be fitted to JF-17??

No, different dimension and different weight. The dimension different is so great , u need to redesign JF-17 into J-10.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Look at what india has done---tried to close the door by going with Rafale----taking away the french submarine deal and the jf17 weapons and electronic package plus delaying our jf 17 program by another 5 years---.

correct !!!!
thats why i like ur views ,ur views are rational & logical

this was india's one of main aim by going with rafale to dissuade french to sale their weapons to pakistan & india did it .

Just imagine if JF 17 could have got french avionics ,sensor system & mica missiles it could have
seriously changed the game scenario .IS int???

 

[PakShaheen79]

Older planes have separate order being met.. this is a new order of 123 engines to be supplied until 2013 for new J-10 weather it would be J-10A/B is another issue.

J-11 uses WS-10 as said by Chinese members and J-15 is still in PT stages.

Where would China sustain the supplies If its blocked by Russia... In past Russians have blocked the supply.. what would China do If they do it again in future... and in worst case during conflicts with PAF highly dependent on JF-17.

Lets limit this to JF-17 and RD-93... J-10 is a another story.

On one hand you are accepting that Chinese are producing engines for bigger planes like J-11 and in the same breath you are trying prove that WS-13 is no where on the scene. FYI, test flights are already taking place in China with this engine. I am sick of this typical Indian mindset about bringing future scenario in the debate and start discussing things accordingly neglecting the present realities on ground.

Really, and I am certain that it only happened in media else i haven't seen any delay in the project due to engine issue. Indians went to Moscow with hopes that Russians would deny re-export of engines to Pakistan but what happened is a history... live with it.

 

[ziaulislam]

Do you know how much 100 F-16 BLOCK 52's would cost? - even if the U.S. was willing to supply them in 2002 which they were not --- $10-12 billion. On June 15th 2002 Pakistans total foriegn exchange reserves hit a high point of $6 billion. Even if they handed over all their foriegn reserves and went bankrupt who was going to pay the remaining $6 billion??? Also 100 F-16'Ss in 2/3 years fast track?? Theres this thing called an order book and production schedule - they don't just drop everything and start churning out PAF f-16's, and you think others have no concept of time?? I'll let other members decide whether it was PAF that was 'stupid' for not getting 100 F-16's in 2002

jf-17 Pt-04 has been pictured in China carrying the SD-10 in test flights. You think that completion of testing of an in service misile on an in service fighter will take 3-5 years???

no actually he thinks that BVR would take atleast 10-15 years for intergation(equal to life of an aircrft!!!) because th photo which was leaked was taken way back in 2007 atleast 4 years from now..also interviews of PAF chief have indicated the BVR would be intergated as soon as the aircrft serial production starts that happened 4 years back..i dont know but are we making a record of slowest intergation of any weapon??

BVR issue has been settled many times, noone really thinks it hasnt been integrated except a few people..

regarding engines 125 order is a small order form Chinese looking at their growing fleet, meaning they are about to induct their own engines.RD 93 replacement will depend upon future exports..and pakistan has too many additional engines as china brought near 500 so its not an issue..
while discussing china member's even lose their common sense..we always speculate positive for any other country but in case of china some member's even speculate OFF facts into non existence!!

i would only add that 150 billion dollars of spending in defense, where is the money going ..they arent the biggest importer yet by far infactt combining all europe defense budget chinse still surpass them. they have had free access to russian technology in 50s,60s,90s and 2000s enough to give them a good jump start. This all started in mid 90s.so even developing simple engine atleast take 10 years so it judicial to thin they are about induct there engines about now.

 

[MastanKhan]

Do you know how much 100 F-16 BLOCK 52's would cost? - even if the U.S. was willing to supply them in 2002 which they were not --- $10-12 billion. On June 15th 2002 Pakistans total foriegn exchange reserves hit a high point of $6 billion. Even if they handed over all their foriegn reserves and went bankrupt who was going to pay the remaining $6 billion??? Also 100 F-16'Ss in 2/3 years fast track?? Theres this thing called an order book and production schedule - they don't just drop everything and start churning out PAF f-16's, and you think others have no concept of time?? I'll let other members decide whether it was PAF that was 'stupid' for not getting 100 F-16's in 2002

jf-17 Pt-04 has been pictured in China carrying the SD-10 in test flights. You think that completion of testing of an in service misile on an in service fighter will take 3-5 years???

Sir,

We were ready to buy 77 of them--I believe---before 2005---so what is another 25----.

 

[MastanKhan]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...4pnNCA&usg=AFQjCNFwOp3yGSNPASNHPcwZNRZxWgRh9A

Pakistan’s economy grew as strong as India’s in 2002 to 2006: Indian magazine
Posted on March 11, 2008 by Mazaqah
Pakistan’s economy grew as strong as India’s in 2002 to 2006: Indian magazine
ISLAMABAD, Mar 11 (APP): Pakistan’s economy may currently be in difficulties with fast rising inflation and the shortage of gas, electricity and flour, but between 2002 and 2006, it grew almost as strong as of India, a leading Indian magazine said.
Pakistan in many ways is better than India in terms of transport infrastructure and communication means, India’s investigative magazine ‘Tehelka’ reported.

In the report, William Dalrymple, an expert on South Asia who travelled through Pakistan said, “Driving last week along the dual carriageways of Sindh, a week after bumping through rural Rajasthan, there was no comparison between the roads on either side of the border.”

“Pakistan still has the best airports, motorway and road network in the region,” he said.

The writer says many incidents in 2007 including lawyers’ protest, Red Mosque episode, series of suicide bombings and proclamation of emergency led many to predict that Pakistan was looking more like a failed state stumbling towards full scale civil war and, possibly, even disintegration.

“However, the country I saw last week on a long road trip from Lahore down through rural Sindh to Karachi was very far from a failed state…Instead, as you travel around Pakistan today you can see the effects of recent economic boom everywhere,” the writer said.

Dalrymple said Pakistan could not be termed as “the most dangerous country in the world” as being propagated by many. Instead the country is enjoying a construction and consumer boom, with growth approaching 8 percent – “the fastest-rising stock market in Asia”.

As part of economic growth, the writer mentioned new shopping malls and restaurant complexes, the hoardings showing latest laptops and ipods, the cranes at buildings sites, the smart roadside filling stations and the smokestacks of factories, the new 4x4s jamming the roads and also the endless stores selling mobile phones.

The article says the country in 2003 had fewer than three million cell-phone users with rising to almost 50 million by today. The car ownership has been increasing at roughly 40 percent per year since 2001. Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) has risen from $322 million in 2002 to $3.5 billion in 2006.

Dalrymple said while going to Larkana, he was asked to beware of dacoits along certain roads ambushing people after dark.

“But by and large, the countryside I passed through was calm and beautiful, and not obviously less prosperous-looking than rural India.”

The cities of Pakistan, in particular, are fast changing beyond recognition in the fashion scene. Also remarkable things are happening in the world of books with a fine crop of major non-fiction writers such as Ahmed Rashid, Zahid Hussain and Ayesha Siddiqa at the front of the pack – there has been an amazing renaissance in English-language fiction, with fine writers like Kamila Shamsie, Nadeem Aslam, Daniyal Mueenuddin, Moni Mohsin, Ali Sethi and especially this year’s Booker short-listee, Mohsin Hamid, all for the first time giving their Indian counterparts a run for their money.

Dalrymple also mentions the incredible new world of media that had sprung up, a world of music videos, fashion programs, independent news networks, cross-dressing talk-show hosts, religious debates, and stock-market analysis.

He gives credit to the Musharraf government for the rise of media sector, which resulted in the flourishing of television, radio stations and newspapers over the past few years.

“Little of this has been reported in the Indian press, and Indians generally seem remarkably ill-informed about the changes which have been quietly but profoundly changing Pakistani society beneath the media image of military stagnation and jehadi horrorism.”

Pakistan's Economy To Grow 4.2% In 2002.
PAKISTAN'S ECONOMY TO GROW 4.2% IN 2002.

KARACHI -(Dow Jones)-Pakistan's economy is expected to grow a stronger 4.2% this year due to lower interest rates and a stronger currency at home, an improving global economy and better regional security, the International Monetary Fund said Thursday.
Last year, Pakistan's economy grew just 3.4%, as it suffered from a war in neighboring Afghanistan, tensions with India and a loss in farm output, the IMF said in its latest World Economic Outlook.
The rupee has gained on aid inflows and rising remittances after Pakistan joined the U.S.-led war against terror in September.
"These trends in the context of firmer global activity and improvements in the regional security situation should support stronger growth in the period ahead," the IMF said.
The IMF expects Pakistan's economy to grow 5.1% in 2003 - close to its average growth rate in the 1980s. The country's economic growth slowed to around 4% in the 1990s.
Inflation is expected to remain tame at 3.7% this year, down from 3.8% last year. The current account deficit will slip to 1% of gross domestic product, compared with 1.2% of GDP last year, the IMF said.
Earlier this month, the IMF approved a $108 million loan disbursement - the second from a $1.3 billion loan program approved in December.
The IMF cautioned that Pakistan will have to continue with economic reforms and fiscal restructuring - including expanding a tax base that currently has just 1.4% of its 140 million population registered as tax payers - to sustain a positive outlook for the economy. The government also needs to boost its revenues, and remove subsidies on sectors such as fertilizer and agriculture, the IMF has previously said.
Revenue collection has been the Achilles' Heel of Pakistan's government in the last decade, including the current one headed by Gen. Pervez Musharraf, who seized power in a military coup in October 1999.
Latest data from the Central Board of Revenue show Pakistan is likely to struggle to achieve a revised tax revenue target of 414 billion rupees ($1=PKR60.14) in the fiscal year ending June 30.
Tax collection fell 2.8% to PKR269 billion in the nine months to March, compared with PKR277 billion in the year-ago period due to lower imports and slow economic activity.
Pakistan will have to collect another PKR145 billion in the next three months to achieve its full-year target, which analysts say is unlikely to happen.
The IMF noted that the country has made progress in the privatization of state-run companies and financial sector reforms.
Pakistan's government plans to sell major stakes in state-owned companies in banking, oil and gas, and telecommunication concerns to strategic buyers by year-end.
The IMF takes into account the calendar year, while Pakistan calculates economic indicators based on a fiscal year that runs from June to July.


2000 2001 2002 2003
Real GDP 3.9 3.4 4.2 5.1
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...4pnNCA&usg=AFQjCNFZtj7-FvFDLBY8-dqlRTST5f6a9A

Consumer Prices 4.4 3.8 3.7 4.0
Current Account Balance
as a percentage of GDP -1.9 -1.2 -1.0 -1.4

-By Saeed Azhar, Dow Jones Newswires; 92-21-5872886;
saeed.azhar@dowjones.com.


Sir,

there are hundred more links from where these came from---.