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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

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Russians have supplied China with low quality engines.. don't try to cover up the facts... or you want me to post the incidents which have occurred with Al-31 on J-10A.... or was it the Chinese modification which caused the incidents.

Now according to you Chinese Engine manufacturers are not able to meet their domestic demand for Turbo-fans... how do you expect it to meet the demands of a foreign customer... the all time high relations with Russia couldn't even get you the arrestor cables for a dummy carrier while they send one of their best Nuclear attack submarines on a lease to India.... Wonder how high it gets during crisis situations.

Wonder whom would Russia value much when more than half of their weapon exports are at stake... The fact is that the sale was blocked in the past... when JF-17 was taking baby steps.. what would China do If its blocked during crisis situations ?

I think you must be high on drugs or cant take it down yr so called best allies has joined the Chinese camp?

Arrestor hook thing is all make up story, you better go Chinese defence and see those arrestor cable in position. The story of russia refuse to sell the arrestor hook system is as crook as Chinese wanted to buy Su-35 from Russia. Chinese develop their own arrestor hook and all is in place and ready for the first touch down in 1-2 months time. Until now you still believe those ill inform story and link?

As for RD-93, if Russia sell RD-93 not becos it try to woo the Chinese then it must be the biggest idiot in the world?
Who will offend its biggest client for just 500 engines? Compare to a fleet of destroyer, aircraft like Mig-29K, T-90 tank, Aircraft carrier, artillery system purchase by India? Worst, Chinese has show a steady decline of weapon purchase from RUssia? The last possble deal may be the 123 Al-31FN engines. Even this deal is junt tiny compare to all the things russia sold to India.

The most recent case is the UN resolution of Syria cease fire where China support Russia and Veto together and prevent any sanction against Syria. This is the kind of close R/S between Russia and China. Precisely the kind of strength Russia sees from us.

Rest assure Pakistan friend. China always live up to its word. When China side promise Pakistan there is no disruption of supply of engine. It will be done. Even until now, there is no any indication Russia will stop supplying. In fact, they are eager to fufil the next 400 engines. It just waiting for the Chines green light to go ahead. The tide of Chinese is coming. Russia is smart to choose the wise choice.
 
I think you must be high on drugs or cant take it down yr so called best allies has joined the Chinese camp?

Arrestor hook thing is all make up story, you better go Chinese defence and see those arrestor cable in position. The story of russia refuse to sell the arrestor hook system is as crook as Chinese wanted to buy Su-35 from Russia. Chinese develop their own arrestor hook and all is in place and ready for the first touch down in 1-2 months time. Until now you still believe those ill inform story and link?

As for RD-93, if Russia sell RD-93 not becos it try to woo the Chinese then it must be the biggest idiot in the world?
Who will offend its biggest client for just 500 engines? Compare to a fleet of destroyer, aircraft like Mig-29K, T-90 tank, Aircraft carrier, artillery system purchase by India? Worst, Chinese has show a steady decline of weapon purchase from RUssia? The last possble deal may be the 123 Al-31FN engines. Even this deal is junt tiny compare to all the things russia sold to India.

The most recent case is the UN resolution of Syria cease fire where China support Russia and Veto together and prevent any sanction against Syria. This is the kind of close R/S between Russia and China. Precisely the kind of strength Russia sees from us.

Rest assure Pakistan friend. China always live up to its word. When China side promise Pakistan there is no disruption of supply of engine. It will be done. Even until now, there is no any indication Russia will stop supplying. In fact, they are eager to fufil the next 400 engines. It just waiting for the Chines green light to go ahead. The tide of Chinese is coming. Russia is smart to choose the wise choice.

There is no permanent allies... why would I be worried of China-Russia relation ship.. when the Russian ships along with IN ships patrol the South China sea together.

Why didn't the wooing work for Su35 or Al-41F engines.. the so called China camp allies are not even willing to supply the 2nd in line while they are shipping their best to India.... whats missing here money, wooing, strategic relationship, vodka ?

You still don't realize that strategic partnerships are based on Trust... not wooing or purchasing power... the US which is willingly sharing its technology with India while at the same time it keeps its employs to wash the F-15s in KSA.
 
Sir,

We were ready to buy 77 of them--I believe---before 2005---so what is another 25----.


We will still have some 75 odd F-16's with Block-52 standard capabilities after three years...18 of them will have their internal jammers and extended range via the CFT's.
 
There is no permanent allies... why would I be worried of China-Russia relation ship.. when the Russian ships along with IN ships patrol the South China sea together.

Why didn't the wooing work for Su35 or Al-41F engines.. the so called China camp allies are not even willing to supply the 2nd in line while they are shipping their best to India.... whats missing here money, wooing, strategic relationship, vodka ?

You still don't realize that strategic partnerships are based on Trust... not wooing or purchasing power... the US which is willingly sharing its technology with India while at the same time it keeps its employs to wash the F-15s in KSA.

LOL... What Russia has that interest China? Probably S-400 but other than that,none... You still believe the Su-35 news that Chinese interested to buy from Russia. I bet you are the last one on earth to know that's a hoax.

http://www.jamestown.org/programs/c...=39140&cHash=645e9a11b4e4e8daa8052519a786fc4d

Last week, Russian media reported Moscow was close to finalizing a $4 billion deal for 48 Su-35s with Beijing. The reported sticking point was that the Russian side wanted greater assurances that Chinese engineers would not reverse engineer the Su-35 and put it into domestic production like the Su-27, which is the model for China’s J-11 (Taipei Times, March 9; Kommersant, March 8; RIA Novosti, March 6). The report by the Russian newspaper Kommersant has generated a flurry of Western commentary; however, there is a striking difference between the Chinese-language and foreign-language coverage of this issue. China’s Ministry of National Defense (MND) has denied emphatically that such a deal is in the works, stating the press coverage is “not in accord with the facts” and the Su-35 “does not fit China’s national situation” (Caixun, March 12; Global Times, March 12). This discrepancy undermines Western analysis of the strategic implications of this announcement and suggests China’s defense aerospace industry is making sufficient progress to meet its military needs.

In a widely reprinted interview, Major General Wei Gang, a senior officer in the People’s Liberation Army Air Force’s (PLAAF) Armaments Department from 2004 to 2011, spoke about the PLAAF’s success in using indigenous innovation (zizhu chuangxin) to meet equipment needs. General Wei touted the J-10 as such an example, while conspicuously avoiding the J-11. Perhaps most importantly, Wei commented that the copying of foreign equipment does not get the PLAAF what it needs and “we must develop forces that meet the needs of China’s developmental circumstances” (China Central Broadcasting, March 9; People’s Net, March 9).

This interview, in combination with MND’s denial, suggests the Kommersant report may be simply rumor—or, alternatively, Beijing is trying to save face by denying the Su-35 deal was ever serious, knowing China’s aerospace industry would not honor the Russian request not to reverse engineer their technology. Giving credence to Beijing’s story over the Russian version suggests Chinese aerospace firms finally may be producing jet engines of the quality needed for advanced fighters—an area where they long have struggled [1]. At a minimum, the Chinese story, if true, would indicate the PLAAF does have its development well in hand and does not have a projected fighter shortfall like the United States and Taiwan.

I tell you what, its a complicated situtation in Russia regarding China. Russian government Duma loves China and badly need China help to ensure their stability and their status as major power. But ordinary Russia do not like China becos all the while , Chinese in their eyes is inferior , suddenly China is second largest economy power and start to overtake Russia in many areas.. Russia givernment will by all means try to get into Chinese good book while Russia media will try all means to smear China reputation. Sometimes, Russia government will also do some small unfriendly action towards China just to please it citizen and try to paint, they are not licking China boot that much. Overall, russia government know what is the big pictures..

So in Pakistan/INdia war happen, as long as request by Chinese. Engine supply to PAF will never be cut off. In fact, Russia maybe tell Chinese the know how of their T-90 tanks, Mig-29K... Then Pakistan and China will have the upper end when dealing with India Russia arsenal..
 
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...4pnNCA&usg=AFQjCNFwOp3yGSNPASNHPcwZNRZxWgRh9A

Pakistan’s economy grew as strong as India’s in 2002 to 2006: Indian magazine
Posted on March 11, 2008 by Mazaqah
Pakistan’s economy grew as strong as India’s in 2002 to 2006: Indian magazine
ISLAMABAD, Mar 11 (APP): Pakistan’s economy may currently be in difficulties with fast rising inflation and the shortage of gas, electricity and flour, but between 2002 and 2006, it grew almost as strong as of India, a leading Indian magazine said.
Pakistan in many ways is better than India in terms of transport infrastructure and communication means, India’s investigative magazine ‘Tehelka’ reported.

In the report, William Dalrymple, an expert on South Asia who travelled through Pakistan said, “Driving last week along the dual carriageways of Sindh, a week after bumping through rural Rajasthan, there was no comparison between the roads on either side of the border.”

“Pakistan still has the best airports, motorway and road network in the region,” he said.

The writer says many incidents in 2007 including lawyers’ protest, Red Mosque episode, series of suicide bombings and proclamation of emergency led many to predict that Pakistan was looking more like a failed state stumbling towards full scale civil war and, possibly, even disintegration.

“However, the country I saw last week on a long road trip from Lahore down through rural Sindh to Karachi was very far from a failed state…Instead, as you travel around Pakistan today you can see the effects of recent economic boom everywhere,” the writer said.

Dalrymple said Pakistan could not be termed as “the most dangerous country in the world” as being propagated by many. Instead the country is enjoying a construction and consumer boom, with growth approaching 8 percent – “the fastest-rising stock market in Asia”.

As part of economic growth, the writer mentioned new shopping malls and restaurant complexes, the hoardings showing latest laptops and ipods, the cranes at buildings sites, the smart roadside filling stations and the smokestacks of factories, the new 4x4s jamming the roads and also the endless stores selling mobile phones.

The article says the country in 2003 had fewer than three million cell-phone users with rising to almost 50 million by today. The car ownership has been increasing at roughly 40 percent per year since 2001. Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) has risen from $322 million in 2002 to $3.5 billion in 2006.

Dalrymple said while going to Larkana, he was asked to beware of dacoits along certain roads ambushing people after dark.

“But by and large, the countryside I passed through was calm and beautiful, and not obviously less prosperous-looking than rural India.”

The cities of Pakistan, in particular, are fast changing beyond recognition in the fashion scene. Also remarkable things are happening in the world of books with a fine crop of major non-fiction writers such as Ahmed Rashid, Zahid Hussain and Ayesha Siddiqa at the front of the pack – there has been an amazing renaissance in English-language fiction, with fine writers like Kamila Shamsie, Nadeem Aslam, Daniyal Mueenuddin, Moni Mohsin, Ali Sethi and especially this year’s Booker short-listee, Mohsin Hamid, all for the first time giving their Indian counterparts a run for their money.

Dalrymple also mentions the incredible new world of media that had sprung up, a world of music videos, fashion programs, independent news networks, cross-dressing talk-show hosts, religious debates, and stock-market analysis.

He gives credit to the Musharraf government for the rise of media sector, which resulted in the flourishing of television, radio stations and newspapers over the past few years.

“Little of this has been reported in the Indian press, and Indians generally seem remarkably ill-informed about the changes which have been quietly but profoundly changing Pakistani society beneath the media image of military stagnation and jehadi horrorism.”

Pakistan's Economy To Grow 4.2% In 2002.
PAKISTAN'S ECONOMY TO GROW 4.2% IN 2002.

KARACHI -(Dow Jones)-Pakistan's economy is expected to grow a stronger 4.2% this year due to lower interest rates and a stronger currency at home, an improving global economy and better regional security, the International Monetary Fund said Thursday.
Last year, Pakistan's economy grew just 3.4%, as it suffered from a war in neighboring Afghanistan, tensions with India and a loss in farm output, the IMF said in its latest World Economic Outlook.
The rupee has gained on aid inflows and rising remittances after Pakistan joined the U.S.-led war against terror in September.
"These trends in the context of firmer global activity and improvements in the regional security situation should support stronger growth in the period ahead," the IMF said.
The IMF expects Pakistan's economy to grow 5.1% in 2003 - close to its average growth rate in the 1980s. The country's economic growth slowed to around 4% in the 1990s.
Inflation is expected to remain tame at 3.7% this year, down from 3.8% last year. The current account deficit will slip to 1% of gross domestic product, compared with 1.2% of GDP last year, the IMF said.
Earlier this month, the IMF approved a $108 million loan disbursement - the second from a $1.3 billion loan program approved in December.
The IMF cautioned that Pakistan will have to continue with economic reforms and fiscal restructuring - including expanding a tax base that currently has just 1.4% of its 140 million population registered as tax payers - to sustain a positive outlook for the economy. The government also needs to boost its revenues, and remove subsidies on sectors such as fertilizer and agriculture, the IMF has previously said.
Revenue collection has been the Achilles' Heel of Pakistan's government in the last decade, including the current one headed by Gen. Pervez Musharraf, who seized power in a military coup in October 1999.
Latest data from the Central Board of Revenue show Pakistan is likely to struggle to achieve a revised tax revenue target of 414 billion rupees ($1=PKR60.14) in the fiscal year ending June 30.
Tax collection fell 2.8% to PKR269 billion in the nine months to March, compared with PKR277 billion in the year-ago period due to lower imports and slow economic activity.
Pakistan will have to collect another PKR145 billion in the next three months to achieve its full-year target, which analysts say is unlikely to happen.
The IMF noted that the country has made progress in the privatization of state-run companies and financial sector reforms.
Pakistan's government plans to sell major stakes in state-owned companies in banking, oil and gas, and telecommunication concerns to strategic buyers by year-end.
The IMF takes into account the calendar year, while Pakistan calculates economic indicators based on a fiscal year that runs from June to July.


2000 2001 2002 2003
Real GDP 3.9 3.4 4.2 5.1
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...4pnNCA&usg=AFQjCNFZtj7-FvFDLBY8-dqlRTST5f6a9A

Consumer Prices 4.4 3.8 3.7 4.0
Current Account Balance
as a percentage of GDP -1.9 -1.2 -1.0 -1.4

-By Saeed Azhar, Dow Jones Newswires; 92-21-5872886;
saeed.azhar@dowjones.com.


Sir,

there are hundred more links from where these came from---.

This article is written after 2006 yet your critisicm of of Pakistan was that they did not buy lots of expensive top end fighters in 2002 -- and you accuse others of not understanding time.
Even though your article is 4 years late -- nowhere does it support your nonesense view that Pakistan had more money than it knew what to do with after 9/11. Quoting GDP's and consumer prices for the period also does nothing to support your nonesense view. I'm sure there are 100 more sources where these came from but your problem is that none of these sources say that Pakistan had so much money that it didn't know what to do with it at any point in time after 9/11. Let me remind you again -- back in middle of 2002 Pakistan had barely $6 billion in total foriegn exchange reserves including private banks -- and you think they were stupid for not buying 100 F-16 BLOCK 52's in 2002. Once again I'll leave to other members to decide who is stupid.
 
J-11 is a twin engine plane.. so If one engine shuts off the other can be used to land it safely... JF-17 can only have one engine on it... there's a reason why western engines on single engine planes have been so successful over the years... there are many things which have to be considered during the conflict situations... RD-93 or any Chinese engine would require more servicing than in between sorties and drink up much fuel... which is obvious due to poor T/W ratio in comparison to engines of F-16 which would require even less servicing... while in cases of French M2K and Rafale.. the pilots have been reported taking off without servicing saving much time between sorties and flying longer on same amount of fuel.. due to much-much better T/W ratio.

We can only think of future scenarios while considering PAF since at present its naked without much to offer against the huge fleet of IAF.

No my friend contrary to your surprises It did happen in past not only in Indian media but this very forum of yours.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/64342-russia-blocks-sale-engines-sino-pak-fighter-jets.html
The sales were blocked the production was made on initial orders... and care to point out how many JF-17s did they produce in 2010.

I am only pointing that the engine is not a very good one and the sales have been stopped in past... If you consider the Chinese basket its even worse than what Americans had to offer.

Really? and that's why you didn't post the HINDUSTAN TIMES link directly here .... :) Ok ... I accepted your wet dream as you are guest here .... Now please care to explain what transpired afterwards. Would you?

If engine is not very good one then Indians must simply have no problem with it, right?
 
Incorrect..
We were ready to buy 36 brand new Block 52's. and upgrade the rest on a lend lease program.
not BUY brand new 77.
We will still have some 75 odd F-16's with Block-52 standard capabilities after three years...18 of them will have their internal jammers and extended range via the CFT's.

Incorrect...

Pakistan changes F-16 plan, ASIA PACIFIC...

From Jane's Defence
Pakistan changes F-16 plan - Jane's Defence Weekly

Pakistan has scaled down its plan to buy Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft, choosing to seek a mix of old and new platforms in place of 77 new aircraft.

Visiting Washington in late April, a Pakistani ministerial delegation told US officials that Islamabad aims to purchase 18 new F-16C/D fighters and 36 second-hand F-16A/Bs.
 
Incorrect...

Pakistan changes F-16 plan, ASIA PACIFIC...

From Jane's Defence
Pakistan changes F-16 plan - Jane's Defence Weekly

Pakistan has scaled down its plan to buy Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft, choosing to seek a mix of old and new platforms in place of 77 new aircraft.

Visiting Washington in late April, a Pakistani ministerial delegation told US officials that Islamabad aims to purchase 18 new F-16C/D fighters and 36 second-hand F-16A/Bs.

Nice call.

But the reason for the change of plans??
 
that has gone to Chinese Defence industry instead of US.
:agree:

Sure, then why come back to US at all? Why not take ALL of the money to China for planes? :D

Actually, there are not enough funds available to cover the needs.
 
It must be money.

Ring Ding Ding DIng!
Thats right folks.. behind door number three.. empty coffers..
Its the reason why the JF-17 was pursued in the first place.
To get the most bang for the buck..
A Gripen purchase would have landed less than half the number of aircraft we get with the Thunder.. and have left us at the mercy of foreign suppliers.
The F-18 was never really taken seriously beyond the F-18L tests..
And we could never really afford either the Rafale or Typhoon
So the best possible plan was chosen.. have a high tech F-16 fleet.. which started out as correctly pointed out at 77 new ones including some upgraded older airframe.. then 36.. and now 18 new ones.. along with 60 odd upgraded airframes.
These become the main offensive element.. with the Jf-17's taking up the role of defenders and CAS aircraft.
 
that has gone to Chinese Defence industry instead of US.
:agree:

Sure, then why come back to US at all? Why not take ALL of the money to China for planes? :D

Actually, there are not enough funds available to cover the needs.

Here's the really.. sad part.. quite a bit of the money for the JF-17 is Chinese money on loan to us as our money and sent to Chengu to become Chinese money.. Confucius smart NO?
With our current economy.. we having problems just paying off the interest on those loans.
The 18 block-52's are sorta our own cash.. but the other upgraded aircraft are just basically USAID being spent as we choose.
So the US is actually helping its economy by upgrading these jets for us.. in a somewhat ironic way.
 
Sure, then why come back to US at all? Why not take ALL of the money to China for planes? :D

Actually, there are not enough funds available to cover the needs.

That,s not the good policy at all. we are friends any way, aren't we ! :P
JF-17 is what we have extracted out using US technology within limited budget and hence reduced more F-16 number in crucial times, so we can increase JF-17 numbers to desired quantity.
 
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