JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[regular]

40+ in inventory, yes. But not in official squadrons.

Only two squadrons have been equipped.

I guess PAF must be inducting two more squadrons by the end of next month......

 

[TAC]

Mister,

In good old africa---there was a Flea that lived in an elephants ear---one day the elephant had to cross a ravine---it had an old wooden bridge and it shook and it creaked and some lumber cracked due to the weight of the elephant---but he made it across----the flea says, " Hehn---didn't we shake the bridge".

So Guy, don't ride my back----this is a technical section of defence.pk---talk technical issues----put your technical thoughts here----give technical reasons for why you say otherwise----once you impress us with your knowledge then take it further by discussing other aspects----. Right now you are blowing hot air----.

Impress us with your technical and strategic knowledge---tell us why the sanctions happened in the 80's---how did pak react to it---give us a story about the sanctions----let us see what you are made up of---you and this other new guy----what's his name Farooqi or what.

You want to jump on me---fine----but can you take my challenge---.

You said that after 9/11 Pakistan had so much money that it did not know what to do with it. I've asked you to give a single source to confirm it a number of times and the best you can come up with is stories about fleas and elephants.
Please stop stating your nonesense views as fact. Some other gems that you have shared with us is that Pakistanis lack intelligence and Pakistanis lack the balls to talk to white people. O another one was that Pakistan was stupid not to snap up 3 squadrons of F-18'S within 2 years of 9/11 ---- With 'technical and strategic knowledge' like that topped up with stories about flees in elephants ears ---- I think I may just be capable of taking your challenge

 

[ziaulislam]

1.
pakistan did planned to spend up 5.1 billion dollars but end up spending only 3.2 billion dollars. now which one is better, 63 f-16 fully armed or barely 18 rafale that would take years to master. going for f-16s was out of necessity there was no second option other than if we could spend 10-15 billion dollars like india..!!. even if we had spend 5 billion 81 f-16s with 36 block 62 would have been far better choice than 30-36 odd rafale..

2. shunting rafale out of MRCA would have not mattered they would have simply chosen eurofighter..besides the f-18 and mig 35 were too available!!!

3. regarding avionics for thunder, PAF had still avionics choice in european countries but it opted for chinese avionics by choice due to many reasons including it being cheaper.

4. and i dont know but we ddidnt had a penny after 9/11 money came in when we are growing at rate 9 per year around 2005-2005 but it had to be spent else wheere after earthquacke.

dont compare us with north korea, pakistan is well sufficient in food regarding wheat (despite afgn using a big chunk of it) and is third biggest rice exporter..this even after we have lowest per acre yield having highest per acre potential..so there much more improvement possible..we are also world third biggest cotton producer.

i think most of the sceptical members will change there view once they see flying j-20 in coming few years i am pretty confident that chinese will put it in air around 2016-2018. regarding engines, chinese have been making engines for three decades, it just they arent making any latest engines that can be compared to western ones. Latest reports and fact that they have cut down their buying from russia has only one indication, chinese have become self sufcient in last field they were behind russia, soon we would be seeing their own engines, as we do see their own avionics upon russian aircrafts..

chinese have the brain,the money (by far the second largest defense budget) and the political will to touch the USA. the receent statement by clinton saying that we arent looking for a cold war with china is a self explanantory statement.
i think USA citizen have a different level of thinking (they do live in econmy that uptil recentl was larger than combing all the world) but there analyst know the truth. upon this chinese research will go on as they slant to become world largest econmy by 2016.

its pretty obvious if you spend over 150 billion dollars and lots of it in research and development you are bound to make leap aheads....

 

[Beast]

Finally some sensible members say something right...

Do you look for a rising star or cling onto a decline power? Future of Pakistanis will know the most wise choice Pakistan ever do is to stick together with the Chinese.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Ya Luftwaffe,

But 5.1 Billion spent on the F-16s was the need of the hour.....for their MLUs, Pods, Engines and the half billion $ worth of AIM 120s. Rafale would have squeezed our cash, but nothing that we could not manage. I guess PAF directed the funds to the AWACs and program and the Navy for it's acquisition of the F-22s.

We never had much money...............................that 2001-2005 (pre earthquake) was the time but we missed it. Let's not fret over what didn't happen. Why not plan for the future better?

Now that we have invested in JF-17, it is too late to pull out.

Pakistan needs to sort it's foreign relations out quickly....or we'd have to beg for wheat like North Koreans.

My good friend do I have to list you the procurements aside from JFTs from 4 il-78, 4 cn-235, more c-130s, c-130 upgrades, p3c orion upgrades plus additional, 4-5 Saab 2000 Erieye, 4 zdk-03s, AH-1 upgrades and additional, Bell utility helicopters, UAVs, Radars, Spada 2000 and spares, upgrades and additional Vipers.

I am saying is All PAF F-16 Inventory MLUd [without going for more F-16s] along with weapons-systems kits spares and a deal for 28-32 Rafales would have changed the scenario, It definitely was an opportunity. Remember US slapped PAF with sanctions Yet French kept the door opened for Mirage 2000 later -5 series and did not come under US pressure Yet we disowned them ditched them we literally insulted Dassault-France and by any angle we tried to gave bad name to Dassault, it was hindustan that seized the opportunity in 90s and then U.A.E for for the M2K-9 Series.

Investment is good but while you have invested that is yet to become a top dog you must have something Technological superior in good numbers to challenge the air superiority of your neighbor IF we had 8 squadrons of Block MLUd/new 50/52 F-16s then we would not have touched the subject of Rafales even IF musharaaf had not reduced F-16 numbers from 77 it would have been a greatest deal for PAF and nullified mrca deal because iaf is afraid of AMRAAMs and large number of F-16s would have been a psychological trauma to iaf. To sum it up either 77 F-16s should never have been cancelled or 28-32 Rafales should have been procured along side F-16 Fleet MLUd, It is a complete confirmation F-16s money did not go towards earth quake victims, we don't have money but we have benazir income support 70B Rupees per anum since 2008/09 every Year $425-450M dedicated to reduce poverty while poverty increased, I am witness to many of the people I can tell you still curse musharraf for not helping earth quake victims in KPK-AZK. Time to cut the crap of minimal credible deterrence..

pakistan did planned to spend up 5.1 billion dollars but end up spending only 3.2 billion dollars.

Hello Information is wrong, PAF spent $5.1B not going to input what PAK spent on IL-78/AWACS/Helicopters, Radars, P3C Orions, spares...

 

[farhan_9909]

pakistan just cant efford rafale


2 squardens of rafale wont make any difference

beside this the overall cost of jft programme is only 500millions of which we paid only 250milliond

and by 250millikns we can max buy only 3 rafale

rafale cost over 90millions
gripen cost 50millions

jft cost 15millions

the problem our paf acms did was buying used mirages and f7 that too in 2003

jft program is a win win situation for paf

against gripen the block 2 would be fairly comparable with less than half price

and just imagine 250 old fleet replacement without jft

simply impossible

why you guys cant get it in mind that paf cannot afford rafale/gripen in fairly good numbers like 100's

even the j10b deal is in jeopardy

 

[abdulbarijan]

Well finally some good ol members are here so some quality posts soo far (ignoring the ones off topic ofcourse)

Anyways there was debate of how we shouldve opted for Rafales and all ...and that France had its door opened for us in the 90's...

No doubt we missed the Mirage 2000 opportunity back in the 90's but decisions such as that are not based simply on the fact that they were good to us in the past AFAIK...Its really easy for us to sit here in the present and criticize an old decisions but we are not in my opinion considering the things PAF had to consider before deciding to avail or reject the M2k.....


-Reservations for old customers:-
Normally one would have reservations for an older customer like Russia has for India etc.
However look at the French we were operating Mirages in the 70's and they started selling IAF a competitor of their customer with their latest technology in the mid 80's.

-Technology to be sold to PAF:-
M2k no doubt is an amazing plane but does any one have the knowledge of what they were willing to supply..The biggest area I know where PAF lacked in the late 90's was the BVR capability..were the French agreed to supply us with that??

-Future implications:-
with us sanctioned would we go for a plane that itself is sanction prone??

-Economical conditions:-
With Pakistan pouring huge amounts of money in the 90's for our nuclear programme could we afford to have an entire new platform with us (the cost of the platform +spares +maintenance and all the other costs)


-The future arrival of Super 7
You have a plane which you in future could modify to your needs,it will be cost effective and benefit us R&D wise.

 

[Last Hope]

Mastan is a fool and most people on this forum know it. He acts as a know it all but he knows nothing.

Respect others. Respect their opinions, even if you don't agree or are not in your views.
His posts are views, sometimes I must agree with them, but usually don't. That doesn't mean I go around calling him names.

Please, he has something to back his posts and you have something else to back your posts.

 

[SQ8]

Everybody has views based on their life experiences that may or may not be relevant to the topic of discussion.
It does not mean we try to force our views on others based on jingoism and blind faith. Or we try to insult others via the age card and the good old "I am right and therefore you must accept it".
You may be right in your view but not the others.. best to agree to disagree and let others decide their own opinion instead of force feeding them.

 

[Beast]

Respect others. Respect their opinions, even if you don't agree or are not in your views.
His posts are views, sometimes I must agree with them, but usually don't. That doesn't mean I go around calling him names.

Please, he has something to back his posts and you have something else to back your posts.

Not with slandering of his own kind.. The worst, he so far has not back up his claim. TAC has already sums up very well. Opinion and slandering are hell lot different. Clearly his lack of knowledge on area he try to prove is appalling. False news need to be rebuke if not will lead to more blind of the young blood.

He's been living in his great LA hole distance himself from the real outside world since American media will feed them with all kind of distort news to suit US own agenda.

 

[ziaulislam]

My good friend do I have to list you the procurements aside from JFTs from 4 il-78, 4 cn-235, more c-130s, c-130 upgrades, p3c orion upgrades plus additional, 4-5 Saab 2000 Erieye, 4 zdk-03s, AH-1 upgrades and additional, Bell utility helicopters, UAVs, Radars, Spada 2000 and spares, upgrades and additional Vipers.

I am saying is All PAF F-16 Inventory MLUd [without going for more F-16s] along with weapons-systems kits spares and a deal for 28-32 Rafales would have changed the scenario, It definitely was an opportunity. Remember US slapped PAF with sanctions Yet French kept the door opened for Mirage 2000 later -5 series and did not come under US pressure Yet we disowned them ditched them we literally insulted Dassault-France and by any angle we tried to gave bad name to Dassault, it was hindustan that seized the opportunity in 90s and then U.A.E for for the M2K-9 Series.

Investment is good but while you have invested that is yet to become a top dog you must have something Technological superior in good numbers to challenge the air superiority of your neighbor IF we had 8 squadrons of Block MLUd/new 50/52 F-16s then we would not have touched the subject of Rafales even IF musharaaf had not reduced F-16 numbers from 77 it would have been a greatest deal for PAF and nullified mrca deal because iaf is afraid of AMRAAMs and large number of F-16s would have been a psychological trauma to iaf. To sum it up either 77 F-16s should never have been cancelled or 28-32 Rafales should have been procured along side F-16 Fleet MLUd, It is a complete confirmation F-16s money did not go towards earth quake victims, we don't have money but we have benazir income support 70B Rupees per anum since 2008/09 every Year $425-450M dedicated to reduce poverty while poverty increased, I am witness to many of the people I can tell you still curse musharraf for not helping earth quake victims in KPK-AZK. Time to cut the crap of minimal credible deterrence..



Hello Information is wrong, PAF spent $5.1B not going to input what PAK spent on IL-78/AWACS/Helicopters, Radars, P3C Orions, spares...

this is a thunder thread so it doesnt seem appropaite to discuss other things but the 5.1 billion dollar deal consisted of 36 blk52 and we got only 18. the details are all over the net..
also procuring 36 rafale would have cost us atleast 5 billion additional dollars so it was never feasible or logical..infact no person in his sane mind would have opted for them..as we could have got 200 thunders or 50 odd f-16s for the same price..both of which are to be our backbone in future.

regarding the investment in tankers and other htings, all of them were also a necissity..i dont thyink so PAF made ay mistake during last decade regarding procurements of weapons. there decsion was wise and precise. funding is the job of national govt, blaming musharraf is useless as current govt has spent even less and spending wasnt possible in sight of 2005 earth quakes. FC-20 was also a factor hat made the PAF to cut its f-16 procurement. also PAF might have been intersted in older f-16s that are about to hit the market soon in huge numbers once f-35 begins to come in service.

i think the one decision that is controversial and has merit to discuss is thunder avionics deal.., what would had been thunder status had we got the avionics from the french. most of the guys in PAF say that thunder current avioncs are comparable to thee ones that we were suppose to get but the real picture isnt known..even so looking at future procurement of FC-20 and zdk-03 it seems only logical to go for Chinese avionics ..

 

[Dazzler]

There is no doubt that French avionics that were being negotiated were better in some aspects such as EW scenario and NATO compatibility right away, not to mention the weapons package that would have come with it but the reality is, this package was only for a specialized, dedicated strike variant that would have been inducted no more than 100 units. The price was too high and unlike their usual way, the French were too picky to provide these.

Avionics and radar were two things that consumed most funds and resources. People forget the famous AFM interview in which, AVM Shahid Latif clearly mentioned his trip to China where they inspected J-10 avionics (CAC factory) but they were NOT satisfied with the overall performance. This happened in late 2003-2004. Not only PAF engineers provide western expertise that they learned over the years, but also took assistance from former South African avionics firm, Tecna Corporation (now a part of Denel Dynamics) that helped PAF in integration of glass cockpit environment. JFT had most advanced avionics when it was completed among all Chinese aircrafts, more advanced than early j-10, on par with later j-10A.
interview image below.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v428/tauseef_1981/afm4.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v428/tauseef_1981/afm5.jpg

 

[Pfpilot]

Well finally some good ol members are here so some quality posts soo far (ignoring the ones off topic ofcourse)

Anyways there was debate of how we shouldve opted for Rafales and all ...and that France had its door opened for us in the 90's...

No doubt we missed the Mirage 2000 opportunity back in the 90's but decisions such as that are not based simply on the fact that they were good to us in the past AFAIK...Its really easy for us to sit here in the present and criticize an old decisions but we are not in my opinion considering the things PAF had to consider before deciding to avail or reject the M2k.....


-Reservations for old customers:-
Normally one would have reservations for an older customer like Russia has for India etc.
However look at the French we were operating Mirages in the 70's and they started selling IAF a competitor of their customer with their latest technology in the mid 80's.

-Technology to be sold to PAF:-
M2k no doubt is an amazing plane but does any one have the knowledge of what they were willing to supply..The biggest area I know where PAF lacked in the late 90's was the BVR capability..were the French agreed to supply us with that??

-Future implications:-
with us sanctioned would we go for a plane that itself is sanction prone??

-Economical conditions:-
With Pakistan pouring huge amounts of money in the 90's for our nuclear programme could we afford to have an entire new platform with us (the cost of the platform +spares +maintenance and all the other costs)


-The future arrival of Super 7
You have a plane which you in future could modify to your needs,it will be cost effective and benefit us R&D wise.

If I may disagree with you here, I think the period in question is the early part of the 2000s. Though the window was small, it provided the PAF the unprecedented opportunity to pick the platform it liked, without letting funding being the sole deterrent. Obviously, buying large number of Rafales was out of the question, but 2-3 squadrons seemed easily possible, just judging from the original framework of the f-16 deal, which was then reevaluated after the earth quake.

Another way to look at the French double dealing is to see the great opportunity always present when negotiating with them. The fact that they are always willing to sell to any side, as long as the money is present, would have allowed us to procure Rafales, had we chosen to do so.

Also, while the jf-17 provides us the opportunity to customize the fighter to our needs, it is still at the mercy of our current economic situation. The block 2, relative to what is considered top of the line today, does not provide a huge leap over the first block. The comparison to the similar advancement of f-16 blocks in the 1980s falls short in my opinion, since the f-16 was slowly improved as new technology was developed...all this, while it was already one of the most advanced fighters on the market. The jf-17 on the other hand is not awaiting a technical breakthrough, but a monetary one. Which is to say, were the money present, we would had a far more advanced jf-17 already. With the money situation not improving, we are left with a fighter that will always be hard pressed to keep up with it's contemporaries. While it may, ultimately, hold it's own, it will never provide us the edge.

I do realize that while I say we can't fund the Thunder properly, I am advocating the procurement of Rafales. But that economic climate was different, and the funding seemed to be there in earnest. It was eventually squandered in the name of earthquake relief, while very little actually ended up providing for those unfortunate thousands.

I hope, more knowledgeable members can provide some insight into how seriously the PAF actually looked into the Euro Canard platforms and was it ever a real possibility...it may help shed some light on whether we are actually arguing a purely hypothetical and hopeless scenario, or one that may have been close to realization.

 

[blain2]

My good friend do I have to list you the procurements aside from JFTs from 4 il-78, 4 cn-235, more c-130s, c-130 upgrades, p3c orion upgrades plus additional, 4-5 Saab 2000 Erieye, 4 zdk-03s, AH-1 upgrades and additional, Bell utility helicopters, UAVs, Radars, Spada 2000 and spares, upgrades and additional Vipers.

I am saying is All PAF F-16 Inventory MLUd [without going for more F-16s] along with weapons-systems kits spares and a deal for 28-32 Rafales would have changed the scenario, It definitely was an opportunity. Remember US slapped PAF with sanctions Yet French kept the door opened for Mirage 2000 later -5 series and did not come under US pressure Yet we disowned them ditched them we literally insulted Dassault-France and by any angle we tried to gave bad name to Dassault, it was hindustan that seized the opportunity in 90s and then U.A.E for for the M2K-9 Series.

Investment is good but while you have invested that is yet to become a top dog you must have something Technological superior in good numbers to challenge the air superiority of your neighbor IF we had 8 squadrons of Block MLUd/new 50/52 F-16s then we would not have touched the subject of Rafales even IF musharaaf had not reduced F-16 numbers from 77 it would have been a greatest deal for PAF and nullified mrca deal because iaf is afraid of AMRAAMs and large number of F-16s would have been a psychological trauma to iaf. To sum it up either 77 F-16s should never have been cancelled or 28-32 Rafales should have been procured along side F-16 Fleet MLUd, It is a complete confirmation F-16s money did not go towards earth quake victims, we don't have money but we have benazir income support 70B Rupees per anum since 2008/09 every Year $425-450M dedicated to reduce poverty while poverty increased, I am witness to many of the people I can tell you still curse musharraf for not helping earth quake victims in KPK-AZK. Time to cut the crap of minimal credible deterrence..



Hello Information is wrong, PAF spent $5.1B not going to input what PAK spent on IL-78/AWACS/Helicopters, Radars, P3C Orions, spares...

I'd rather deal with the Americans than the French any day, any time and this is not because of a bias towards the one or the other, rather its the position of the two globally. French are more prone to pressure than the Americans. They held back delivery of ROSE Mirages during the Kargil conflict and primarily look at defence deals as a way to ensure that their military-industrial base remains profitable, the Americans do the same but the overriding part for them is their foreign policy which tends to try to balance things out to keep stability in various parts of the World. In their dealings with Pakistan, they are open to selling to us as long as we do not get a significant advantage over the Indians, and even then they know the limits of our purse, the French on the other hand primarily think about the benefit that can be had by courting the Indians due to their greater purchasing power.

Secondly, having American equipment in the form of the F-16s means that Pakistan continues to operate a tried and tested platform. Most are well aware of the spare parts issues, there is a much larger market beyond the OEM which won't be the case with the Rafale. Then keep in mind the unit cost of the Rafale and cost of enhancements to the platform will primarily be borne by the user due to limited economy of scale achieved thus far in production (only two users total including India now). F-16s have had consistent development and the cost of this development has been shared by the users (barring the case of block 60) due to significant economy of scale achieved by the huge orders. So Pakistan has a lot of benefit from sticking with the F-16s.

Pakistan cannot be a top dog in a region where you have a near trillion dollar economy to compete against. Our options are limited and we have to spend each dollar in a manner that makes sense. Buying Rafale would mean spending a stupendous amount on the training and upkeep (lifecycle) of the Rafale at a time when the PAF is undergoing a major rethink on the transition from a 4th generation fleet to 5th generation. At this time, you want to spend as little as possible on aircraft that see you through this very significant evolutionary transition and get you to your next generation fleet with a mainstay of 5th gen. aircraft.

There is significant confidence in some circles of the PAF who believe that FC-20 will have capabilities that will meet or exceed those of the Typhoon after the modifications being done. That is good development and gives Pakistan some room instead of only relying on the Western powers.

Lastly, to your point about having purchased 77 F-16 or 28-32 Rafales, I think the number of F-16s with blk-52 capabilities will be in the high 60s. That is close enough and I think you would agree.

 

[Dazzler]

here is the tecna corp website....

Tecna Corporation: Defense Products and Technologies > Aerospace


This was the image of proposed glass cockpit by Tecna Corporation, credit goes to Usman Shabbir of Pakdef.info