JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Donatello]

Hello much has been discussed, I will end short, How much would 36 Rafales cost not more than $4.8B, how much is spent on Total 60-63 F-16s $5.1B do the maths and all members, you may include alil more...Kill two birds with a stone, all 30-40 inventory F-16s massive upgrades+Amraams and 28-32 Rafales. Have you people read the list of weapons Pakistan purchased procured since 2001, where do you think that money came from, fooling around thailand can/is operating gripen-south africa, hungry can operate gripen and we tell oursleves and the rest the technology is beyond anything we can handle. PAF did something similar as in 90s thankyou musharraf for lost opportunity if not lost decade, today Rafale would have been out of mrca along with vipers.

Ya Luftwaffe,

But 5.1 Billion spent on the F-16s was the need of the hour.....for their MLUs, Pods, Engines and the half billion $ worth of AIM 120s. Rafale would have squeezed our cash, but nothing that we could not manage. I guess PAF directed the funds to the AWACs and program and the Navy for it's acquisition of the F-22s.

We never had much money...............................that 2001-2005 (pre earthquake) was the time but we missed it. Let's not fret over what didn't happen. Why not plan for the future better?

Now that we have invested in JF-17, it is too late to pull out.

Pakistan needs to sort it's foreign relations out quickly....or we'd have to beg for wheat like North Koreans.

 

[Edevelop]

i have come to believe that we really do have more JF-17s than what was imagined.
Notice the serial number indicating how many we had back in November 2011.

Almost half a year has gone by now. That means if the production rate is 15 planes per year then right now in total we have around above 40+ in inventory.

 

[Beast]

Hi,

I agree to all that you have said about chinese space program ( with some reservations )---but the bottomline still is that fighter aircraft engine of the calibre of the one in F 16 BLK 52 with same life span is about 10---15 + years away for china---maybe 25 years.

See---you have started mixing things up---fighter aircraft are a different breed than space ships----even russia---which is way ahead of china in space technology and possibly closer to the u s----still doe not have a single engine to compete with the performance and life cycle of an F 16 engine----.

But---good try on your part in trying to wing it---.

Then you are wrong in mixing with engines and avionics. Russia needs France to build LHD for them. So where dies Chinese ship building stands?

Did you bother to read the Beijing CIPEX 2010 link I posted? Russia weapon specilist even needs to source the chips for their PGM from Chinese. You can imagine russi electronic sector has degraded into what stage? Even Russia space program is inherit from soviet union. You know why their rocket blow up of sky in last 2 years? The lacking of control and the kind of sophistication simulation cause all that.

Then tell me how many phase array radar has Russian field in the naval fleet? None.... I bet you don't even know Chinese destroyer has phased attar radar for their air defense.

As I say u only pick on the points that suit yr agenda. I totally agree with TAC of his view on yr undesired behaviour and attitude towards Pakistan.

 

[Donatello]

i have come to believe that we really do have more JF-17s than what was imagined.
Notice the serial number indicating how many we had back in November 2011.

Almost half a year has gone by now. That means if the production rate is 15 planes per year then right now in total we have around above 40+ in inventory.

40+ in inventory, yes. But not in official squadrons.

Only two squadrons have been equipped.

 

[MastanKhan]

If you make sweeping nonesense statements which you have -- such as 1. Pakistanis don't have the balls to talk to white folk, 2.Pakistanis lack intelligence, 3.all Pakistanis on this forum just take their dad and or dada abus word as fact apart from you, 4.Pakistan had so much money after 9/11 that it didn't know where to spend it, 5. Pakistan was stupid to miss the chance to pick up 3 squadrons of Rafales or F-18's within 2 years of 9/11 ----- you should expect people to question your 'itegrity, perhaps even your sanity - whether you give a hoot or not.

Mister,

In good old africa---there was a Flea that lived in an elephants ear---one day the elephant had to cross a ravine---it had an old wooden bridge and it shook and it creaked and some lumber cracked due to the weight of the elephant---but he made it across----the flea says, " Hehn---didn't we shake the bridge".

So Guy, don't ride my back----this is a technical section of defence.pk---talk technical issues----put your technical thoughts here----give technical reasons for why you say otherwise----once you impress us with your knowledge then take it further by discussing other aspects----. Right now you are blowing hot air----.

Impress us with your technical and strategic knowledge---tell us why the sanctions happened in the 80's---how did pak react to it---give us a story about the sanctions----let us see what you are made up of---you and this other new guy----what's his name Farooqi or what.

You want to jump on me---fine----but can you take my challenge---.

Then you are wrong in mixing with engines and avionics. Russia needs France to build LHD for them. So where dies Chinese ship building stands?

Did you bother to read the Beijing CIPEX 2010 link I posted? Russia weapon specilist even needs to source the chips for their PGM from Chinese. You can imagine russi electronic sector has degraded into what stage? Even Russia space program is inherit from soviet union. You know why their rocket blow up of sky in last 2 years? The lacking of control and the kind of sophistication simulation cause all that.

Then tell me how many phase array radar has Russian field in the naval fleet? None.... I bet you don't even know Chinese destroyer has phased attar radar for their air defense.

As I say u only pick on the points that suit yr agenda. I totally agree with TAC of his view on yr undesired behaviour and attitude towards Pakistan.

Sir,

Don't run around in circles-----russia may have 20 fighter aircraft engines better than what china has----. We are in fighter aircrat section----the engine is the heart and soul of any aircraft---as a matter of fact if the russians ask for their fighter aircraft engines back from china----china can't even fly their front line aircraft----.

Pakistanis ranked 4th most intelligent people globally

Pakistanis ranked 4th most intelligent people globally | The News Tribe

Hi,

I would love to see you walk down the strets of new york with a sign saying " pakistan is ranked 4th most intelligent people globally ". and see what happen---or even anywhere canada .

Now live on it and cherish the thought.

 

[Edevelop]

Hi,

I would love to see you walk down the strets of new york with a sign saying " pakistan is ranked 4th most intelligent people globally ". and see what happen---or even anywhere canada .

Now live on it and cherish the thought.

Equally, people will either believe me because of ISI or believe me by seeing the number of students studying in best Universities.
Postive or Negative. Pakistani people are intelligent.

 

[MastanKhan]

Equally, people will either believe me because of ISI or believe me by seeing the number of students studying in best Universities.
Postive or Negative. Pakistani people are intelligent.

Sir,

The proof lies in the pudding----. It is the end result that counts---the end product----it is nation / pakistan that reflects what intellect is---not some students in foreign universities---. If that makes you feel good and you are satisfied that you have reached your destination---when you look at your nation as a whole---is it that what you feel!

 

[Beast]

Sir,

Don't run around in circles-----russia may have 20 fighter aircraft engines better than what china has----. We are in fighter aircrat section----the engine is the heart and soul of any aircraft---as a matter of fact if the russians ask for their fighter aircraft engines back from china----china can't even fly their front line aircraft----..

Clearly, your lack of knowledge is appalling. I bet you don't even know what is WS-10. Becos yr era of china is still believed to be in the 90'. You want to talk abt engines? Go and update on yr knowledge of Chinese engine before you try to beat me.

All the latest J-11B coming out are using domestic engine. If Russian wants to stop selling, please go ahead. I forget to mention. Even the latest prototype of j-10B is running a domestic WS-10. How is. Chinese frontline aircraft are going to stop with 100% indignenuous? You clearly had no idea what r u talking abt?

Another thing I want to mention. There are no news of engine sanction for the J-10 sold to Pakistan. Don't u find it surprised unlike the JF-17 saga which the sanction of RD-93 is keep circulating...

I find it amused you are the last so called Pakistanis to knOw this piece of news..

Pakistan J-10 can have the option of flying WS-10 or reuse AL-31F. If Russian refuse to sell the. It will left with only the Chinese engine option but I doubt Russian is that stupid to refuse the engine sales.

Check out this link I post. It shows what kind of amazing things Chinese do to Russia AL-31F engines. Something, Russia can't even do it.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...cations-russian-salyut-al-31f-jet-engine.html

I am surprised there is not much response from this news from former members here. That's why mastankhan can miss such things abt china progress....

 

[Carlos 'Cypher' Renato]

The JF-17 really looks awesome, how much each plane costs? and which weapons it can use?

 

[Edevelop]

Sir,

The proof lies in the pudding----. It is the end result that counts---the end product----it is nation / pakistan that reflects what intellect is---not some students in foreign universities---. If that makes you feel good and you are satisfied that you have reached your destination---when you look at your nation as a whole---is it that what you feel!

You are absolutely correct and i won't deny that.
However, we are talking about general Intelligence. You should be aware of our future potential. To say what we should do or should have done as a whole to reach our goal in the end is another issue to talk about.
I don't know what others do, but i'm currently a University student and there are very few people i've come across who would join me in my country's association patriotically. Unfortunately, most Pakistanis here in North America call themselves Muslims before Pakistan. Our relation amongst ourselves has always been immature. Some of our people would accept Arabs before Punjabis, Pashtons, Sindhis, Balochis, Kashmiris.

Now at topic:
Pakistan's time before 9/11 was different. In fact, we were on the same par as India. I remember clearly PAF's race for Gripens.
This would have been seen

PAF:
F-16s, Gripens, Mirage III/V, F-7PG
IAF
Mig-29, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, Mig-21

Because situations changed over time, every single country in the West was against us and has blackmailed us. Hence the only option left was investing in JF-17. Though time may has been wasted and India has gone ahead of us, what i'm happy to see is our evolution growth or growth in local aerospace R&D over time

The JF-17 really looks awesome, how much each plane costs? and which weapons it can use?

Blk 1 = $15-20 million
Blk 2 = $20-25 million

Armament
Guns: 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon (can be replaced with 30 mm GSh-30-2)
Hardpoints: 7 in total (4× under-wing, 2× wing-tip, 1× under-fuselage; pylon stations number 3, 4 and 5 are wet-plumb capable) with a capacity of 3,629 kg (8,000 lb) for external fuel and ordnance
Missiles:
Air-to-air missiles:
Short range: AIM-9L/M, PL-5E, PL-9C
Beyond visual range: PL-12 / SD-10
Air-to-surface missiles:
Anti-radiation missiles : MAR-1[93]
Anti-ship missiles: C-802A,[73] C-803
Cruise missiles: Ra'ad ALCM
Bombs:
Unguided bombs:
Mk-82, Mk-84 general purpose bombs
Matra Durandal anti-runway bomb
CBU-100/Mk-20 Rockeye anti-armour cluster bomb
Precision guided munitions (PGM):
GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2 laser-guided bombs
H-2, H-4 electro-optically guided,[3] LS-6 satellite-guided glide bombs[136]
Satellite-guided bombs[3

Note we bought your MAR-1 Brazilian missiles.

 

[Carlos 'Cypher' Renato]

Blk 1 = $15-20 million
Blk 2 = $20-25 million

So we can buy at least 3 thunders with the price of one Rafale with almost the same results and being able to integrate brazilian missiles (as you use the MAR-1 and the MAA-1A as you stated)? Why the hell Brazil don't ordered some 100 of them yet? Looks like the best cost/benefict offer that i ever saw...

 

[Manticore]

Gentlemen , lets come back to topic!

Carlos 'Cypher' Renato , maybe it depends on your total alloted number of squadrons , your enemy's arsenal ,delivery time factor-- jf17 blk2 might be exported , that too after some years when paf has a considerable number of jfts in its arsenal

 

[zeee]

Hello much has been discussed, I will end short, How much would 36 Rafales cost not more than $4.8B, how much is spent on Total 60-63 F-16s $5.1B do the maths and all members, you may include alil more...Kill two birds with a stone, all 30-40 inventory F-16s massive upgrades+Amraams and 28-32 Rafales. Have you people read the list of weapons Pakistan purchased procured since 2001, where do you think that money came from, fooling around thailand can/is operating gripen-south africa, hungry can operate gripen and we tell oursleves and the rest the technology is beyond anything we can handle. PAF did something similar as in 90s thankyou musharraf for lost opportunity if not lost decade, today Rafale would have been out of mrca along with vipers.

Good Point. There are some obvious strategic advantages attached if we had gone for rafale:
1. Versatility in the PAF arsenal, IAF would have to develop tactics for a new platform
2. Push rafale out of MRCA
3. Avionics deal for JF-17 could have been saved. (everybody knows the significance)

 

[PakShaheen79]

Your points are totally valid, I only disagree in relation to the relative strength of both forces. PAF has increased its capabilities greatly over the last decade due to the peripheral purchases you mentioned. But the IAF has done so at an even greater rate. The economy, quite rightly is not there, but in a war, we cannot stop an Indian advance simply by telling them to hold off for a few years, till our economy recovers. Wars are fought in the moment, future capabilities and economic and political excuses will be unable to prevent a defeat. The IAF strength is growing almost exponentially in relation to our capabilities.

By the time, the jf-17 can boast the capabilities that put it in elite company, the IAF Rafales will be in service and their su-30mkis greatly upgraded. For us, even the fc-20 is not assured due to a shortage of funds. Once again, the problem is not that we are not progressing, but that the IAF is doing so at a quicker rate. The medium term state of the economy does not leave us much choice at this point, but when that small window of opportunity opened, we may have been able to better utilize it.

Many respectable members have often proclaimed that the jf-17 is not supposed to be our high end fighter, but when fighting on the defensive, it is going to often come down to the Thunder taking on superior air superiority fighters...we don't have the strategic depth of India, that would allow us to expose certain fighters to certain situations.

I may, in the end, be completely off base here (I hope that is the case), but with my limited knowledge, it just doesn't seem as if the jf-17 can give us the required punch to blunt not only an Indian advance, but curtail even the planning of any such adventure.

1. Bad economy in my argument is not excuse but a reason for current state of PAF and as far as the war is concerned there are other things which will also count like nuclear threshold, MAD, Ballistic missiles etc. So, i don't think that coming. As i said, Indians would be stupid to attack us when we have Zardari and co running this country.

2. Don't you think it is better to have JF-17's capabilities boasted till Rafale came operational than going for a dangerous road on relying on expensive hi-tech foreign fighters which can came under sanctions right in middle of war? Remember F-16's in 1990's?

3. We acquired all technical capabilities plus 18 Block-52 (which according to MK has changed the air combat in sub-continent) so what else could have been done. In presence of existing fleet of 32 F-16s going for another platform like Rafale would have been not so wise... so it was a better deal to get 60+ F-16's on par with Block-50 standards equipped with latest weapon and sensor suites.

4. Indeed Jf-17 would face high-tech Indian planes in 'defensive' war ... But that would be with AEW backing and having support of SAM and AAA batteries. Air combat is a 'little' more complex than what it is being perceived here.

5. Certainly, JF-17 doesn't provide the punch (in its current form) as it was NOT intended for that role (air power projection). That will only possible if PAF can secure more F-16's along with FC-20.

 

[Mav3rick]

1. Bad economy in my argument is not excuse but a reason for current state of PAF and as far as the war is concerned there are other things which will also count like nuclear threshold, MAD, Ballistic missiles etc. So, i don't think that coming. As i said, Indians would be stupid to attack us when we have Zardari and co running this country.

2. Don't you think it is better to have JF-17's capabilities boasted till Rafale came operational than going for a dangerous road on relying on expensive hi-tech foreign fighters which can came under sanctions right in middle of war? Remember F-16's in 1990's?

3. We acquired all technical capabilities plus 18 Block-52 (which according to MK has changed the air combat in sub-continent) so what else could have been done. In presence of existing fleet of 32 F-16s going for another platform like Rafale would have been not so wise... so it was a better deal to get 60+ F-16's on par with Block-50 standards equipped with latest weapon and sensor suites.

4. Indeed Jf-17 would face high-tech Indian planes in 'defensive' war ... But that would be with AEW backing and having support of SAM and AAA batteries. Air combat is a 'little' more complex than what it is being perceived here.

5. Certainly, JF-17 doesn't provide the punch (in its current form) as it was NOT intended for that role (air power projection). That will only possible if PAF can secure more F-16's along with FC-20.

We will be investing in stealth UCAV's that will be programmed to fly CAP missions fully automated in designated areas, they will engage threats spontaneously and independently. They will all be linked to AWEACS and other Jet fighters of PAF and will be able to identify friend and foe even on the ground for complete battlefield awareness and analysis for field commanders. Such is the future or air & sea warfare as pretty soon we will even see stealth unmanned submarines.