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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

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That means 3 RAADs could be carried at once? Pakistan couldn't be looking for anything more than that ::enjoy:
JF-17 is CAPABLE of carrying 3 Ra'ad ALCM at once. But it would create imbalance and would result in some difficulty to control the bird, especially during launch. One, under the fuselage, or two in the inner most hardpoints is going to be good enough.
I don't know if true but an inside source told me that PAF has strategy to attack during the night hours. This is the reason JF-17s are imbibed with capacity to operate at night. If so RAADs and other missile we use must be operate-able at night.
PAF is capable of air-to-air and air-to-ground attacks during night. But this is the first time I am hearing about this strategy. Anyways, when the duty calls, anything could happen.

Only time will be the answer to many of our questions.
 
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Chinese JF-17 is a Cheap Competition For The F-16





Pakistan is aggressively seeking customers for its JF-17 jet fighter. During the last two years, Pakistan has manufactured about 30 JF-17. The first JF-17s were manufactured in China. But the plan was always to shift production to Pakistan, with the original goal of 25 a year being produced by 2011. This goal was not achieved, but production has been established in Pakistan, and it is growing.



Pakistan is offering the JF-17 for a low price ($25 million in the cheapest configuration) and touts the fact that this is a third the price of an F-16. But this is comparing apples and oranges. The low end JF-17 is little more than a day time interceptor. The most capable F-16 model in service is the F-16I, used exclusively by Israel. It's basically a modified version of the F-16C/D Block 50/52, equipped with more advanced radar (the APG-68(X)) and the ability to carry Israeli weapons like the Python 4 air-to-air missile and the Popeye 2 air-to-surface missile. Costing $70 million each, the F-16I has an excellent navigation system, which allows it to fly on the deck (a few hundred feet from the ground), without working the pilot to death. The aircraft can do this at night or in any weather. The F-16I can carry enough fuel to hit targets 1,600 kilometers away (meaning Iran is within range). The aircraft uses the latest short and long range air-to-air missiles, as well as smart bombs. Electronic countermeasures are carried, as is a powerful computer system, which records the details of each sortie in great detail. This is a big help for training. The F-16I is basically optimized to deliver smart bombs anywhere, at any time, in any weather and despite dense air defenses. This further increases Israel's military power versus its neighbors. In combat, one F-16I is worth more than three JF-17s. But what Pakistan is really touting here is the availability of a jet fighter that is cheap and performs somewhat like an F-16. For many countries, this is an attractive option. The only problem is that there are hundreds of second-hand (and very well maintained) F-16s on the market, selling for less than the bare-bones JF-17.



The Chinese designed JF-17 (also known as FC-1) is also manufactured in China, which is trying to export it to Algeria, Egypt, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Burma, Iran and Sri Lanka as an inexpensive alternative to American and Russian fighters. So far, no takers. The hundreds of JF-17s to be built in Pakistan are mainly composed of Chinese parts, and the Chinese Air Force has not shown any interest in obtaining the aircraft for its own use. Officially, the Chinese Air Force is still “evaluating” the JF-17, but unofficially, Chinese air force commanders consider the JF-17 a failed design.



Last year, Pakistan signed a deal to buy the next 42, of 300, of these jets from China. These 42 will cost $14.3 million per aircraft. The final 250 will cost $12 million each. The aircraft is assembled in both Pakistan and China, with the engines coming from Russia, and most of the other components from China (which calls the aircraft the FC-1).



When the first JF-17 fighter arrived in Pakistan four years ago, it ended over twenty years of development for what was first called the Super 7 fighter. The JF-17 was developed by China in cooperation with Pakistan, which originally only wanted to buy 150 of them. All this came about because Pakistan could not get modern fighters from anyone else, and turned to China. At the time, China had nothing comparable to the early model F-16s Pakistan already had.



The 13 ton JF-17 is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but much less effective than more recent F16 models. The JF-17 design is also based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Originally, Pakistan wanted Western electronics in the JF-17, but because of the risk of Chinese technology theft, and pressure from the United States (who did not want China to steal more Western aviation electronics), the JF-17 uses Chinese and Pakistani electronics.



The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and uses radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of nearly 18,000 meters (55,000 feet). China says it does not want to use the JF-17 itself because its own J-10 (another local design) and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped, but that's another matter. Meanwhile, Pakistan has one squadron in service, and another being formed.


Chinese JF-17 is a Cheap Competition For The F-16 | China Military Power Mashup


Well this is "interesting"..LOL!
 
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(Sources dont make such claims, at times i wonder how everybody has a "source" )

it depends what you call a source. my definition of source is anybody who is professionally related to defense.
 
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That means 3 RAADs could be carried at once? Pakistan couldn't be looking for anything more than that ::enjoy:

I don't know if true but an inside source told me that PAF has strategy to attack during the night hours. This is the reason JF-17s are imbibed with capacity to operate at night. If so RAADs and other missile we use must be operate-able at night.

:) I think 2 is more realistic here. one under each wing. 3 means 3 x 1100 = 3300 kg ... which means there will have to be a escort mission along with Thunder carrying 3 Raad and i am not sure how much it affect maneuverability of the plane after we put 2 Raad size missile on it? certainly, it will decrease the agility along with range due to absence of central fuel tank.
 
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Chinese JF-17 is a Cheap Competition For The F-16




Pakistan is aggressively seeking customers for its JF-17 jet fighter. During the last two years, Pakistan has manufactured about 30 JF-17. The first JF-17s were manufactured in China. But the plan was always to shift production to Pakistan, with the original goal of 25 a year being produced by 2011. This goal was not achieved, but production has been established in Pakistan, and it is growing.

Well for one I dont remember anyone claiming that the production would be 25 a/c from the get go it was always as i remember "enhanced" and increased to 25 a/c per year.



Pakistan is offering the JF-17 for a low price ($25 million in the cheapest configuration) and touts the fact that this is a third the price of an F-16. But this is comparing apples and oranges. The low end JF-17 is little more than a day time interceptor. The most capable F-16 model in service is the F-16I, used exclusively by Israel. It's basically a modified version of the F-16C/D Block 50/52, equipped with more advanced radar (the APG-68(X)) and the ability to carry Israeli weapons like the Python 4 air-to-air missile and the Popeye 2 air-to-surface missile. Costing $70 million each, the F-16I has an excellent navigation system, which allows it to fly on the deck (a few hundred feet from the ground), without working the pilot to death. The aircraft can do this at night or in any weather. The F-16I can carry enough fuel to hit targets 1,600 kilometers away (meaning Iran is within range). The aircraft uses the latest short and long range air-to-air missiles, as well as smart bombs. Electronic countermeasures are carried, as is a powerful computer system, which records the details of each sortie in great detail. This is a big help for training. The F-16I is basically optimized to deliver smart bombs anywhere, at any time, in any weather and despite dense air defenses. This further increases Israel's military power versus its neighbors. In combat, one F-16I is worth more than three JF-17s. But what Pakistan is really touting here is the availability of a jet fighter that is cheap and performs somewhat like an F-16. For many countries, this is an attractive option. The only problem is that there are hundreds of second-hand (and very well maintained) F-16s on the market, selling for less than the bare-bones JF-17.

-Day time interceptor ( JF-17 has day/night capability AFAIK)

-F-16 I best in the F-16 family ( I thought it was the F-16 E/F block 60 and now the upcoming F-16V's)

-While the writer basically mentions most of the advantages that med/heavy class holds over the light class (range,payload etc) but does not mention the advantages of light over med/heavy (ease of maintenance, turn around times etc)

-However the most interesting thing is from radar,avionics to EW suite the writer says it in one go every thing is superior of the F-16 I however check out the EW capabilities of JFT


From JF-17 infopool

JF-17's EW suite is very complex. It combines radar warning receiver and missile proximity receiver to form surveillence system and combined with ECM work. JF-17 uses uses something to diagnose RWR. It can receive a lot of information like fighter radar, missile seeker, A2S guidance radar and provides within 1.5 degree news. RAR has about 100+ radar info repository. It uses measured info to compare. detect the threatening origin and correct (radar type or fighter type?) and warning level. This repository can improve to 300. It can allow reprogramming, receive wartime newly discovered radar signal. 04's improved tail (backside" contains a missile proximity receiver. There will probably be two more put on the fighter for 360 degree coverage. It uses infrared and purple dual band imagine device. It has a purple red window? It can sense missile's rocket engine spoke from 20 KM in. It can correctly predict missile's location, trail and such. It can even estimate engagement time. It can be expanded to a fighter/missile recognition system. It can also provide some infrared imaging, communicate with RWR and hopefully can develop passive signal detection technology.



04's EW suite also has a ECM pod. It and the ECM on the tail provide joint work. ECM current uses traidtional infrared something? modern missile's countermeasure to this is getting stronger each day. To let this simple and cheap ECM achieve high efficiency shows system's level, RWR, MPR and such. This system is only equipped by rafale and F-22. F-18E/F and F-16E/F needs upgrade to have this. 04 should also have ECM inside of fighter. It uses modern ECM technology and uses precise tracking system. Can achieve the affect of large ECM machine with small equipment. This ECM is most modern active guided AAM. It can also counter gither radar lock and scan. It's mainly for PAF's enemy IAF's R-77 missiles.


-Last point of second hand F-16's being cheaper is quite surprising for me since I never found an F-16 of same capabilities/ technology wise (F-16 Block 40 or higher) in the price tag that is mentioned by the author (25 million per piece)








The Chinese designed JF-17 (also known as FC-1) is also manufactured in China, which is trying to export it to Algeria, Egypt, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Burma, Iran and Sri Lanka as an inexpensive alternative to American and Russian fighters. So far, no takers. The hundreds of JF-17s to be built in Pakistan are mainly composed of Chinese parts, and the Chinese Air Force has not shown any interest in obtaining the aircraft for its own use. Officially, the Chinese Air Force is still “evaluating” the JF-17, but unofficially, Chinese air force commanders consider the JF-17 a failed design.

-Well the author passes his judgement on the behalf of Chinese touting it as a "failed design". Ironically CAC developed a whole new PT-06, tests its newest weapons (anti ship,LS-6 and SD-10 series) tests its homemade engine (WS-13) on it after according to the author the JFT is considered by them as a "failed design"..



Last year, Pakistan signed a deal to buy the next 42, of 300, of these jets from China. These 42 will cost $14.3 million per aircraft. The final 250 will cost $12 million each. The aircraft is assembled in both Pakistan and China, with the engines coming from Russia, and most of the other components from China (which calls the aircraft the FC-1).



When the first JF-17 fighter arrived in Pakistan four years ago, it ended over twenty years of development for what was first called the Super 7 fighter. The JF-17 was developed by China in cooperation with Pakistan, which originally only wanted to buy 150 of them. All this came about because Pakistan could not get modern fighters from anyone else, and turned to China. At the time, China had nothing comparable to the early model F-16s Pakistan already had.

-The MOU of the project was signed in 1995 (our author friend also needs help with counting I guess)
-Even if the author considers the Grumman project of Sabre II (1989-1991) it still counts up to 17-18 years (not 20 even then) till PAF recieved the SBP in 2006-7.


The 13 ton JF-17 is meant to be a low cost alternative to the American F-16. The JF-17 is considered the equal to earlier versions of the F-16, but much less effective than more recent F16 models. The JF-17 design is also based on a cancelled Russian project, the MiG-33. Originally, Pakistan wanted Western electronics in the JF-17, but because of the risk of Chinese technology theft, and pressure from the United States (who did not want China to steal more Western aviation electronics), the JF-17 uses Chinese and Pakistani electronics.

-First off the Mig-33 jargon has been discussed in grave detail...However the output by the design is the vital factor not the base of the design itself.eg the cancelled LAVI and now we have a similar design in J-10 which has whipped the floor with the J-11's,SU-30's.At the end of the day its about how capable the JF-17 is not how is it based on other designs.In a war your opponent wont ask you
"HEY!!! your jet is based on a cancelled project so why dont you get locked,get shot and go to the heavens "





The JF-17 can carry 3.6 tons of weapons and uses radar guided and heat seeking missiles. It has max speed of nearly 2,000 kilometers an hour, an operating range of 1,300 kilometers and a max altitude of nearly 18,000 meters (55,000 feet). China says it does not want to use the JF-17 itself because its own J-10 (another local design) and J-11 (a license built Russian Su-27) are adequate for their needs. The J-10, like the JF-17, did not work out as well as was hoped, but that's another matter. Meanwhile, Pakistan has one squadron in service, and another being formed.


lastly the specs used are of old prototype mostly used by the writers that are critical of JF-17
eg
-3.6 tonnes (revealed now to be around 3.8-4.0 tonnes)
-2000 Km/h (1.6 Mach) however we know its 1.8 Mach
-Wrong I dont know of any official of PLAAF explicitly saying that "WE DONT WANT JF-17"
-PAF has 2 squadrons in service as of today and the third one is in near completion
 
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From the latest SIPRI transfers update, Chile got 2nd hand F-16Cs at $15m each from the Dutch. I suspect this is the payment to the Dutch before they are upgraded in a seperate deal by the USA.
Netherlands 18 F-16C FGA aircraft 2009 2010-2011 18 Ex-Dutch; $270 m deal

In a seperate deal http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/us-outlines-upgrades-for-indonesian-f-16-deal-365092/ these are costing $31.25m each - this one now includes the updrages.
The US government has outlined details of the proposed sale and upgrade of 24 former US Air National Guard Lockheed Martin F-16 C/D Block 25 aircraft for Indonesia, valuing the Foreign Military Sale deal at $750 million.

Also the Peace Atlantis 2 deal for Portugal the USA gave for free 20 F-16s. The upgrades costs $268m = $13.4 JUST FOR THE UPGRADES!

So if the US is not going to free issue F-16s, ... ... and they may not even be willing to sell you the F-16s ... ... or only limited performance F-16s. I found it very "interesting" that Iraq is getting AIM-7s and not AMRAAMs ... ???
 
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:) I think 2 is more realistic here. one under each wing. 3 means 3 x 1100 = 3300 kg ... which means there will have to be a escort mission along with Thunder carrying 3 Raad and i am not sure how much it affect maneuverability of the plane after we put 2 Raad size missile on it? certainly, it will decrease the agility along with range due to absence of central fuel tank.

One RAAD on mirage restricts it to pull 5.5 G though.
 
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it depends what you call a source. my definition of source is anybody who is professionally related to defense.

China defence mash up is actually quite biased towards China military. It can't be consider a reliable source.
 
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That means 3 RAADs could be carried at once? Pakistan couldn't be looking for anything more than that ::enjoy:

:rolleyes: Only if the RD93 runs on air, otherwise it needs external fuel tanks. There is not a single official source for a load config on the wings above 1000Kg. Not even the GBU 10 (956 kg) are shown their, C-802A has a weight of 715Kg, that makes the 1100l fuel tanks with a weight of around 880Kg the heaviest loads for the stations 3 and 5 so far.
So realistically, Block 1 might carry one Ra'ad if the diameter is not a problem, while the twin load on the wing makes only sense with wing streanghtenings and additional fuel (be it mid air refuelling capability of Block 2, or possibly CFTs / increased internal fuel in Block 3). Not to mention that payload and thrust capacities should be increased as well.
 
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Totally unfair to Compare F16 the most successful single engined fighter in the world with the MASSIVE experience amd maturity this brings in the 4th generation tech field. WITH a single engined lightweight fighter only arrived 2 years ago and several years away from full maturity.

If you where looking to PROTECT your skys from adversaries with say mirage2000 or mig29

which would you pick

1. FC1/THUNDER @ $25M EACH OR a 2nd hand used (BUT FULLY SERVICED F16/C/D for the same price)
 
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Re China reluctance to not induct its own FC1 fighter is more to do with its projected threats and geographical needs rather than thunder current or future potential.

IT IS A MASSIVE COUNTRY ten times the geography of pakistan.

PLAAF Potentially FOES are

USN with F18S/H F35 & F22 and stealth bombers

Japan taiwan & south korea who all use F15 UPGRADED with aesa radars & F16s and possibly F35 in the future

India SU30MKI mig29 & mirage2000 with rafale to arrive in 3 years.

THUS PLAAF

NEED bigger far more potent platforms ie fc20 . j10 su30 j11 & in future chinease J20
 
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Re China reluctance to not induct its own FC1 fighter is more to do with its projected threats and geographical needs rather than thunder current or future potential.

IT IS A MASSIVE COUNTRY ten times the geography of pakistan.

PLAAF Potentially FOES are

USN with F18S/H F35 & F22 and stealth bombers

Japan taiwan & south korea who all use F15 UPGRADED with aesa radars & F16s and possibly F35 in the future

India SU30MKI mig29 & mirage2000 with rafale to arrive in 3 years.

THUS PLAAF

NEED bigger far more potent platforms ie fc20 . j10 su30 j11 & in future chinease J20
how many times it has been cleared that there is no reluctance and its deal that 1st batches would be delivered to PAKISTAN to replace aging aircrafts as soon as possible.
and other thing jf-17 perfectly suits PAKISTAN air space and our needs.
it may not be suiting china as much as it suits us..
 
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