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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

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Hence this would mean our Thunders are being upgraded with KLJ-10 and until that task is completed ... we may not be seeing SD-10 on it.

I think that we have unduly jumped to conclusionss. It was reported three years ago that JF-17 would be equipped with KLJ-10 but the first batch is using the KLJ-7. This does not mean that first batch Thunders with KLJ-7 are in any way or form inferior just because they do not have KLJ-10. Let me explain why?

JF-17 are a true multi-role aircrafts. That means aircrafts will be dedicated for different roles and be equipped with avionics and weapons suitable for that role. PAF decided that first recipients of JF-17 will be the used for ground support role. Thay is why 26th SQ-a dedicated Ground support unit is receiving JF-17 with KLJ-7. Since these aircraft will not carry any SD-10, they do not require KLJ-10 or a BVRAAM supporting radar.

I believe that it is a prudent move by PAF given the finances. Situation will definitely be different for an air superiority aircraft. Since it will carry a BVRAAM, it will require a long range radar which can support the BVR missiles. Question thus arises as to why go for a Western radar when you can have an equally good or better Chinese KLJ-10. Initially, it was thought that Thunder would only use the Chinese BVRAAM and that made sense. . But then PAF began to think using American Aim-120 as an option which does not mate with KLJ-10. PAF hopes that US will allow AIM-120 by sharing codes with Western manufacturers of radars which it may not do with Chinese.

Please remember that PAF has been making prudent decisions based on the evolving and continuing studies and situations.

Hope that it will clear any misunderstandings.
Feel better and sleep well.
 
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I think that we have unduly jumped to conclusionss. It was reported three years ago that JF-17 would be equipped with KLJ-10 but the first batch is using the KLJ-7. This does not mean that first batch Thunders with KLJ-7 are in any way or form inferior just because they do not have KLJ-10. Let me explain why?

JF-17 are a true multi-role aircrafts. That means aircrafts will be dedicated for different roles and be equipped with avionics and weapons suitable for that role. PAF decided that first recipients of JF-17 will be the used for ground support role. Thay is why 26th SQ-a dedicated Ground support unit is receiving JF-17 with KLJ-7. Since these aircraft will not carry any SD-10, they do not require KLJ-10 or a BVRAAM supporting radar.

I believe that it is a prudent move by PAF given the finances. Situation will definitely be different for an air superiority aircraft. Since it will carry a BVRAAM, it will require a long range radar which can support the BVR missiles. Question thus arises as to why go for a Western radar when you can have an equally good or better Chinese KLJ-10. Initially, it was thought that Thunder would only use the Chinese BVRAAM and that made sense. . But then PAF began to think using American Aim-120 as an option which does not mate with KLJ-10. PAF hopes that US will allow AIM-120 by sharing codes with Western manufacturers of radars which it may not do with Chinese.

Please remember that PAF has been making prudent decisions based on the evolving and continuing studies and situations.

Hope that it will clear any misunderstandings.
Feel better and sleep well.
So it means that our first 50 bockI will only be capable for ground attack role
 
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KLJ-10 is long range radar and KLJ=7 is short range
long range means above 145Km range
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FC-1/JF-17 Thunder Last Updated 4/27/10
Some points frm the link
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then subsequently switched to KLJ-10 with a better performance (track 10 engage 2, look-up range 75km, look-down range 45km for RCS=3m2). An European high performance radar (e.g. Italian Vixen 1000ES AESA) has been planned in later batches.
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he latest news indicated that the first taxi test of FC-1 powered by an indigenous WS-13 took place on March 18, 2010.
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Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force
 
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Please remember that PAF has been making prudent decisions based on the evolving and continuing studies and situations.

Hope that it will clear any misunderstandings.
Feel better and sleep well.


Sir,

Thankyou for your post---but I do have a gripe---.

We needed a true bvr capable fighter interceptor and our PAF has come up with a ground attack plane---and sir you call paf making prudent decisions.

Sir, the decisions of PAF have been on par with general motors---chrysler---enron and forgot the name of the hedge fund guy who scammed people for 50 billion dollars and is in jail now.

It has continuously been one failure after another---the latest one being the french radar fiasco.

Come on please---we desperately needed a potent bvr system as soon as yesterday---and today we are finding out that it is not going to be available.

PAF is repeating this story of foriegn hand and their deception for the longest time now---this time it is the french---.

It amazes me that this deception and failure has not been noticed by any of the pakistani posters.

PAF procurement has been the biggest failure in the millitary history of pakistan---truly if there were not bigger fools dealing with procurement of the enemy's purchases, living on the other side of the border---we would truly have been doomed.

How can I feel better and sleep well---when I feel I have been had for the upteenth time.
 
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According to the Amercians they are. Israeli jammers are the best in the world. The recent exercises are a proof and even the F-15 pilot whose video was circulating everywhere said that the jammers on Mig-21 were so effective that even the F15 couldn't detect them.

False claim. None of your boys have any info on Israeli jammers. Even the US has nothing to counter them.

how do you know they are excellent??? These are the most basic avionics and present on even Mig-21. Nothing exceptional about them.
BTW, PAF is not satisfied by these avionics and is looking to upgrade these even before the completion of first squadron. Speaks plenty for the excellence of these avionics.

And which radar jamming pod are you talking about? Just googling and wikipedia is not enough for an analysis. Name the jamming pod and tell me its abilities.


Sure PAF will employ multiple assets but that doesn't mean India will not. India even has the AWACS killer missile Novator k-100. If you are taking AWACS into picture, care to take K-100 into picture too. MKI is capable of effectively jamming JF-17's avionics. It might not be successful every time but the probability is very high.


Let me explain to you one more time. Guidance of missile through AWACS is possible but there are requirements. The radar of the AWACS should be compatible with the datalink of the missile. A western AWACS will not be compatible with chinese missile and vice versa. Only KLJ-7 will be able to guide an SD-10. Erieye will only be able to guide an AMRAAM.

But this is the not the primary problem. The problem is that to launch a missile the JF-17 needs to get in range of the MKI. That is where the catch lies. Before JF-17 could get a lock on, MKI would have already launched the missile.
Guiding from AWACS is not a possibility here. And since the missile today are fire and forget, they have an onboard active seeker. In the last 15-20 kms, this seeker takes control, and will automatically home to the hostile aircraft.

You do not have 8 AWACS today.
MKI will be detected with AWACS. True. But to neutralise it, you'll have to send in something. And that something will be in range of the MKI. AWACS can't fire missiles, you see.


I think I said one of the best. R77 and AMRAAM are the best missiles in the world. No doubt about it. And thats what I said.

The chinese SD-10 uses a reverse engineered seeker from R-77. But that seeker only becomes active in the last 15 kms of its course. The motor is the main concern here, being chinese doesn't make it better, it makes it worse.

Care to show proof for your claims. and the version of Darter you're talking about. There is no darter missile with such range.
The one that is under negotiation is A-Darter. Unfortunately for you, its still under development and only by Brazil and SA. There is no Pakistan in there. So there goes another false claim of yours.

Another assumption. Ever heard of look-up and look-down modes of radar. Go read up.
Low flying aircraft are only invisible to ground radars. Unfortunately for you, we have AWACS and fighter aircraft with radars in the sky.

Grapes are sour??
TVC is not just for airshows. It is a great tech that not only helps immensely in dogfighting but also helps evading missiles.
I agree with the bolded part. But a better aircraft would certainly help.
Right now, the qualitative and quantitative advantage is with India, so the last comment of your stays invalid.


Actually it isn't Indians but Pakistanis who are obsessed with their aircraft. MKI is one of the best 4.5++ gen aircraft and the world accepts the same. Take it from a RAF Typhoon pilot.
domain-b.com : Typhoon vs SU-30MKI: Lessons from Operation Indra Dhanush
It is JF-17 that is being overestimated by miles. Its barely a 4th gen aircraft with bare minimum capabilities. Yet here you are comparing to MKI.

Sardar Jii subah subah pii litii haii :lol:, just Joking

Back to the topic, i dont know if its just me but it seems that the quality of PDF is going South. I am seeing Indian members coming over here and making assumptions on their own without even properly researching before making blind claims. I have highlighted some of the blind statements you have made Sardar Ji and i must say i am dissappointed considering that you are a Senior Member.

Your post pretty much makes my point clear, Indian fanboys belief that SU30MKI is a "God's Gift to Aviation" and JF17 is just an upgraded version of MIG21. Funny how you mentioned the Colonel of Red Flag but left out the part that the F15's and F16's hammered the MKI to the point that the pilots of MKI refused to go head to head in A2A. You want to know what the capabilities of the JF17 are, do me a favour and start reading all the threads about the JF17 and pay special attention to what the senior members with inside contacts disclose and not just read Wikipedia. As far as the Darter's are concerned, here take a look at this thread and follow Shamim Sahab's Posts:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/28713-h2-h4-aam-agm.html

I didnt bother replying to your post because there is simply no point, this is not the first time you have trolled or made blind statements without even researching the topic properly. I honestly dont know how many times will you get proved wrong, so do yourself a favour and start researching the topic instead of making foolish statements. I am yet to understand how did you come up with the conclusion that PAF is not satisfied with Block I of JF17, on the contrary the PAF pilots i have talked to are more than happy with its performance and point out that it has exceeded their expectations. But i am sure you know more than PAF Pilots :D; so do your research Sardar Jii, trust me it will help you.
 
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Sir,

Thankyou for your post---but I do have a gripe---.

We needed a true bvr capable fighter interceptor and our PAF has come up with a ground attack plane---and sir you call paf making prudent decisions.

Sir, the decisions of PAF have been on par with general motors---chrysler---enron and forgot the name of the hedge fund guy who scammed people for 50 billion dollars and is in jail now.

It has continuously been one failure after another---the latest one being the french radar fiasco.

Come on please---we desperately needed a potent bvr system as soon as yesterday---and today we are finding out that it is not going to be available.

PAF is repeating this story of foriegn hand and their deception for the longest time now---this time it is the french---.

It amazes me that this deception and failure has not been noticed by any of the pakistani posters.

PAF procurement has been the biggest failure in the millitary history of pakistan---truly if there were not bigger fools dealing with procurement of the enemy's purchases, living on the other side of the border---we would truly have been doomed.

How can I feel better and sleep well---when I feel I have been had for the upteenth time.

I agree.

Taking nothing away from the importance of the A2G role, our prime shortcoming was a BVR capable fighter with decent agility and avionics. JF-17 was to overcome that and in decent numbers too. It was not that we were/are a toothless tiger in the A2G role as it is. Howcome we find ourselves enhancing our A2G role first when our prime concern i.e. a bvr enabled fleet still remains as is... to-date (if the SD-10 issue with the current JF-17s is true that is).

Its like prescribing a patient vitamins (which are necessary too) when the requirement is for a high potency antibiotic injection ... to save the patient's life. Vitamins could have been followed up later.

I believe prevailing circumstances, for the last couple of years, have somewhat derailed/delayed the well laid-out plans of the PAF top-brass. Perhaps proper contingencies were not envisaged.

Also, respectfully, I don't agree that going about putting less capable radars for role specific squadrons is the right approach ... i.e. this actually degrades the true multi-role nature of the fighter. Why is it nececssary that a JF-17 currently assigned to A2G role with the 26th Sqd be handicapped to not be able to fire BVR missiles / SD-10s? The US F-16s have good BVR capability but also have been the most sought after A2G fighter of the USAF.

Now what remains to be seen is that whether we would be going BVR-less for the entire first batch of 50 planes or is it going to be a shorter wait than that.
 
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Sardar Jii subah subah pii litii haii :lol:, just Joking

Back to the topic, i dont know if its just me but it seems that the quality of PDF is going South. I am seeing Indian members coming over here and making assumptions on their own without even properly researching before making blind claims. I have highlighted some of the blind statements you have made Sardar Ji and i must say i am dissappointed considering that you are a Senior Member.

Your post pretty much makes my point clear, Indian fanboys belief that SU30MKI is a "God's Gift to Aviation" and JF17 is just an upgraded version of MIG21. Funny how you mentioned the Colonel of Red Flag but left out the part that the F15's and F16's hammered the MKI to the point that the pilots of MKI refused to go head to head in A2A. You want to know what the capabilities of the JF17 are, do me a favour and start reading all the threads about the JF17 and pay special attention to what the senior members with inside contacts disclose and not just read Wikipedia. As far as the Darter's are concerned, here take a look at this thread and follow Shamim Sahab's Posts:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/28713-h2-h4-aam-agm.html

I didnt bother replying to your post because there is simply no point, this is not the first time you have trolled or made blind statements without even researching the topic properly. I honestly dont know how many times will you get proved wrong, so do yourself a favour and start researching the topic instead of making foolish statements. I am yet to understand how did you come up with the conclusion that PAF is not satisfied with Block I of JF17, on the contrary the PAF pilots i have talked to are more than happy with its performance and point out that it has exceeded their expectations. But i am sure you know more than PAF Pilots :D; so do your research Sardar Jii, trust me it will help you.

What you call assumptions are facts and you can counter check them from an aerospace engg or a military man.

I know I am correct. I have lots of research behind my post.

About PAF very happy with the performance, then why did it opt for French avionics even before inducting the plane. I guess PAF knows better than you.

Go through my post again and counter it if you can, with facts and credible links.
 
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What you call assumptions are facts and you can counter check them from an aerospace engg or a military man.

I know I am correct. I have lots of research behind my post.

About PAF very happy with the performance, then why did it opt for French avionics even before inducting the plane. I guess PAF knows better than you.

Go through my post again and counter it if you can, with facts and credible links.

Going for the French avionics does not mean PAF wasnt satisfied with the current batch but a whole different reason, PAF wanted to integrate AMRAAM into the JF-17 and the Americans would have never provided source codes to be installed within the Chinese frame work where as it would have been relatively easy with the french. It has nothing to do with the quality of Chinese avionics This is all that there is to it behind the french deal, rest are all assumptions. Again update your knowledge, read Sir Pshamims post. He has explained it rather beautifully.
 
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I know what i saw and i am sure it is the Thunder flying in Karachi. Here is why..

1. It has a white colored, fast blinking flash light on top of its vertical tail, mirages and f-7 don't have it.

2. The engine sound is radically different than both mir and f-7s and sounds heavier than both.

3. Red and green lights are also visible but they too blink faster than mirage and f-7 lights. Change is evident

I have been observing for many days now and since i live in Karachi for last 30 years and have seen mirages and f-7 day in and day out, i know what i saw up there and its definitely new.

for reference

ops45.jpg


and...

2wg4wzn.jpg
 
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Going for the French avionics does not mean PAF wasnt satisfied with the current batch but a whole different reason, PAF wanted to integrate AMRAAM into the JF-17 and the Americans would have never provided source codes to be installed within the Chinese frame work where as it would have been relatively easy with the french. It has nothing to do with the quality of Chinese avionics This is all that there is to it behind the french deal, rest are all assumptions. Again update your knowledge, read Sir Pshamims post. He has explained it rather beautifully.

The French were offering RC-400 radar, which would guide MICA missiles and not AMRAAM missiles.

The AMRAAM Aim-120 missiles are exclusively for the F-16s.
 
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The French were offering RC-400 radar, which would guide MICA missiles and not AMRAAM missiles.

The AMRAAM Aim-120 missiles are exclusively for the F-16s.

JJ we have experiance to mate American Missiles with chinese radars and avionics.

our Chinese F-6 (Mig-19)'s used to fire AIM-9 Sidewinders the only issue is if USA will allow it or not to be used on Thunders.

f6_jul26.jpg


1998414_f520.jpg
 
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JJ we have experiance to mate American Missiles with chinese radars and avionics.

our Chinese F-6 (Mig-19)'s used to fire AIM-9 Sidewinders the only issue is if USA will allow it or not to be used on Thunders.

f6_jul26.jpg


1998414_f520.jpg

Posting some photographs of some historical integration of AA Missile on early vintage jets is not any sensible view of justifying the same happening can be done one present era jet. There are some basic procedures and techniques that needs to follow to make it suitable for war fighting capability and make it clarify the same for sucessful kill.

Kill rate of AIM-120 class of missile really make it possible for it by the virtue of high power radar, its datalinking with both airborne and ground station, Integration of IFF as Aim-120 is fire and forget missile and hence it will make much more important to ensure efficient level of situational awareness and proper planning and procedure to distinguish between friend and foe as active radar guided missiles of US origin like Aim-120 can end up killing one of its own wingman in the absence of suitable investment in proper networking of the same.
 
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The French were offering RC-400 radar, which would guide MICA missiles and not AMRAAM missiles.

The AMRAAM Aim-120 missiles are exclusively for the F-16s.

The AMRAAM can be integrated with any radar(even the chinese ones) provided one has the source codes to do so.
 
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