JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[sancho]

The AMRAAM can be integrated with any radar(even the chinese ones) provided one has the source codes to do so.

Could be true, but it depends on the US to provide them for integration and has nothing to to that the RC 400 is a French radar. Even if the JF 17 will get these radars, without US permision no US missile can be integrated and that was the point of jagjitnatt.
PAF must be very aware of the quality difference between the Chinese radar and avionics, compared to western counterparts and that's why they want only that few with Chinese radar, which actually shows the advantage of PAF over PLAAF. They can customize the fighter with better stuff, while PLAAF is limited to their own, or Russian if they are ready to sell.

Also you should keep in mind that the French mainly want to make money, why should they allow the integration of US missiles with their radar, if they can earn more money by selling PAF MICA EM?

So

 

[IceCold]

Could be true, but it depends on the US toprovide them for integration and has nothing to to that the RC 400 is a French radar. Even if the JF 17 will get these radars, without US permision no US missile can be integrated and that was the point of jagjitnatt.
PAF must be very aware of the quality difference between the Chinese radar and avionics, compared to western counterparts and that's why they want only that few with Chinese radar, which actually shows the advantage of PAF over PLAAF. They can customize the fighter with better stuff, while PLAAF is limited to their own, or Russian if they are ready to sell.

Also you should keep in mind that the French mainly want to make money, why should they allow the integration of US missiles with their radar, if they can earn more money by selling PAF MICA EM?

So

It all comes down to the US providing the source code which by the way, a french radar has better chances as compared with a chinese one, and hence PAF was looking for one however it does not mean that Chinese radars are sub standard or that PAF wasnt satisfied with them as put by jagjitnatt.

 

[Kompromat]

Posting some photographs of some historical integration of AA Missile on early vintage jets is not any sensible view of justifying the same happening can be done one present era jet.

No one is using the integration of an air to air missile like AIM-9 sidewinder on an old system like Mig-19's to justify the possibility of mating AIM-120c with KLJ-7 (KLJ-10 Radar).

All i was trying to prove is that we have proven capability of mating chinese radars and avionics suite with US origin missiles .

There are some basic procedures and techniques that needs to follow to make it suitable for war fighting capability and make it clarify the same for sucessful kill.

When AIM-9 was integrated on F-6's all of those parameters were met in test and eveluation phases , it is nonesense to install a system which wont shoot down the enemy when you press the fire button.

Kill rate of AIM-120 class of missile really make it possible for it by the virtue of high power radar, its datalinking with both airborne and ground station, Integration of IFF as Aim-120 is fire and forget missile and hence it will make much more important to ensure efficient level of situational awareness and proper planning and procedure to distinguish between friend and foe as active radar guided missiles of US origin like Aim-120 can end up killing one of its own wingman in the absence of suitable investment in proper networking of the same.

Modern day technologies have made things eaiser to operate but complex to develop, but PAF officials seem optimistic about being able to operate multiple missiles from Thunder's and the reason why they are so confident is because the data link system and sensors available on thunders are able to communicate effectively with US origion weapons.

This was one of the reasons why PAF was looking for RC-400 radar , MBDA Mica BVRAAM and Thales Avionics package as PAF would have been able to integrate all missile systems (US, French,Chinese ,Home made) on that package but things went wrong when French felt insecure of the chances of their technology being mated to Chinese can disclose their well kept secrets.

According to my info Thunders would be equipped with AIM-9's , PL-10 , AIM-120C and some domestic air to air weapons , all of those missiles would be able to link with Aircraft radar and avionics effectively , moreover we have a diverse range of AWACS in PAF's inventory ie SAAB-2k and KJ-200 which will improve the situational awareness and FOF recognation to avoid any friendly fire , increase target detection range , In flight guidence , Multiple target detection which ultimately will also improve surviveablity.


In order to get it right PAF was looking for French solution which was ideal because it may meet all needs that are felt neccessary to be fulfilled.

Since the deal is on hold i can expect some substitutes , but we do have to wait because the first batches are A2G role and eventually PAF will come up with a solution in order to be able to use the maximum potential available in our arsnell.

Regards:

 

[sancho]

JF-17 are a true multi-role aircrafts. That means aircrafts will be dedicated for different roles and be equipped with avionics and weapons suitable for that role. PAF decided that first recipients of JF-17 will be the used for ground support role. Thay is why 26th SQ-a dedicated Ground support unit is receiving JF-17 with KLJ-7. Since these aircraft will not carry any SD-10, they do not require KLJ-10 or a BVRAAM supporting radar.

That is a bit contrary, because a multi role fighter is able to be used in A2A and A2G roles, but if these JF 17 have no BVR capability, they can't be useful in the A2A role. They would be dedicated ground attack fighters and in the same role and with the same capabilities like PAFs Mirage, or IAF Jaguars. The only A2A capability they have will be defending themselfs with WVR missiles, but that is not what a 4 gen multi role fighter should be.

I explained it with regard to PAFs F16 block 15 before, although F16 are designed as 4th gen fighters, the early blocks were not fully capable. They neither offered advanced avionics, multi mode radars, nor guided weapons like BVR missiles, or PGMs. These capabilities was added only with the block 20 onwards and that's why PAFs F16 block 15 will only be true 4th gen fighters with the new upgrade.
IF JF 17 would be that limited to ground attack like you say (which honestly would surprise me), it would be similar.

However, I would say even with KJ 7 radars they should have BVR capabilities (maybe they just need some more time to integrate them), but possibly not that good in terms or range, or modes, compared to the new US radar that the F16s will get. KJ 10 should also have a bigger diameter, though it was designed for the J10 if I'm not wrong (maybe somebody can confirm that?), so with integration of the bigger radar alone it would offer some improvements.

 

[farhan_9909]

First 50 all will be for A2g role?

 

[jagjitnatt]

The AMRAAM can be integrated with any radar(even the chinese ones) provided one has the source codes to do so.

You answered it yourself. Yes, any missile can be integrated with any radar provided you have the source codes for the radar and the missile.

Fortunately you can get the radar source codes. But unfortunately you, or for that matter, no country other than US has source codes for AMRAAM missile.


Hence, AIM-120 can not be integrated with a chinese radar.

AIM-120 missiles are for F-16 and not JF-17.

 

[jagjitnatt]

According to my info Thunders would be equipped with AIM-9's , PL-10 , AIM-120C and some domestic air to air weapons , all of those missiles would be able to link with Aircraft radar and avionics effectively , moreover we have a diverse range of AWACS in PAF's inventory ie SAAB-2k and KJ-200 which will improve the situational awareness and FOF recognation to avoid any friendly fire , increase target detection range , In flight guidence , Multiple target detection which ultimately will also improve surviveablity.

Would like to correct you there mate.

JF-17 would be equipped with PL-12 (SD-10).

AIM-9 and AIM-120 would be used on F-16 unless PAF gets its hands on a western radar compatible with AIM-120.

You are correct on the AWACS thing. But some people believe SAAB AWACS would be able to guide SD-10. This is not correct.

 

[Kompromat]

AMRAAM answer.


Thunders will have a Joint helmet mounted Sight (Ceuing system) soon which speaks itself for those who know how JHMCS / JHMS works.

We have bought over 500 AIM-120C AMRAAM's but we have only have less than 70 F-16's (Block 52+ & MLU-M3) tell me guys who would be stupid enough to buy 500 Missiles for that small batch of fighter jets.

AIM-120c AMRAAMs will End up on thunders and that is for sure and PAF will take steps to get it done right.

 

[sancho]

It all comes down to the US providing the source code which by the way, a french radar has better chances as compared with a chinese one, and hence PAF was looking for one however it does not mean that Chinese radars are sub standard or that PAF wasnt satisfied with them as put by jagjitnatt.

I would agree with him, because if PAF had planed that from the beginning, why bother with 50 JF 17 with Chinese techs anyway? They could have made the deal with France long before and the first 150 JF 17 would get the French package. Also if PAF would believe the Chinese radar is comparable, why not simply add some western techs (like French EWS, or some weapons) to it and not buy a complete new package? That would have reduced the costs pretty much, because of higher numbers, but less techs and easier logistics.

 

[sancho]

AMRAAM answer.


Thunders will have a Joint helmet mounted Sight (Ceuing system) soon which speaks itself for those who know how JHMCS / JHMS works.

An US HMD with Chinese radar and avionics? Any reliable source for that?

 

[jagjitnatt]

We have bought over 500 AIM-120C AMRAAM's but we have only have less than 70 F-16's (Block 52+ & MLU-M3) tell me guys who would be stupid enough to buy 500 Missiles for that small batch of fighter jets.

500 is not a huge number considering these are the best missiles for the best aircraft in the inventory.

IAF also ordered 1600 R-77 missiles and more are to be ordered once this order is completed. And we have only 100 MKIs and 69 Mig 29s that will be main users of this missile, even though we have Astra missile coming up soon.

Mig-21s can be equipped but they are being phased out.

So 8-10 missiles per aircraft are standard.

 

[Kompromat]

Would like to correct you there mate.

JF-17 would be equipped with PL-12 (SD-10).

PL-10 has been tested and would be in service soon .

AIM-9 and AIM-120 would be used on F-16 unless PAF gets its hands on a western radar compatible with AIM-120.

I have answered it above.

You are correct on the AWACS thing. But some people believe SAAB AWACS would be able to guide SD-10. This is not correct.

Prove it how.

 

[Kompromat]

Here is something intresting.


Chinese.PL-9c

Israeli Python-3.

 

[jagjitnatt]

PL-10 has been tested and would be in service soon .

The PL-10 was a highly unsuccessful attempt at copying the Italian Aspide missile. This missile has been replaced with a better active seeker based missile known as SD-10 or PL-12. This is the missile JF-17 would be using, since it is way better than PL-10.

I have answered it above.

me too.

Prove it how.

The radar in SAAB AWACS is not compatible with SD-10 missile. PAF doesn't have the source codes for the AWACS radar in order to integrate the missile. It would only be able to integrate with AIM-120 missile.

Just a google would be enough to understand this. AWACS are being overhyped on the forum. They are not God sent. The only advantage they provide is Increased surveillance and datalinking of the aircraft.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Here is something intresting.

Interesting isn't it?

Actually the chinese PL-8 was a ditto copy of Python 3 but later it was improved a little and named PL-9