JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[deckingraj]

It is not the mig 29 issue ( even though it is in a minor way )---russia is desperate to get the MRCA. The mig 29 issue was there when roxon--- agreed to supply the engines and the russian govt approved it.

Mastan Khan Sir, MRCA deal is only $10 Billion....i am saying only because we already have inked deals with Russia more then the said amount in various ventures....Mig-35 has no bearings whatsoever....Secondly if China-Pak export it how does it makes our life difficult??? Ruskies have already sold 150 of these engines and JF-17 will fly in Pak Air-Space without any hindrance...I can understand if this ban(once applied) can hit PAF......So please explain what we Indian's would be after???

You guys are giving us more credit then the work we have done....Honestly I can understand about the French Avionics but this one is beyond my understanding....

 

[khurasaan1]

'Asal se behtar' photostate as claimed by most local copy-shops

true bro...

 

[pshamim]

hen the time came to replace its large, obsolete fleet with modern, lightweight, multi-role combat aircraft, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) opted for a low-cost solution and not pricier Western designs. The result was an aircraft that could be manufactured in Pakistan in collaboration with the People's Republic of China - the lightweight fighter bomber JF-17 Thunder.

Developed by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and Chengdu Aircraft Industry, China, production is being undertaken at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra.

The PAF officially inducted its first JF-17 squadron on 18 February this year. Initially, about 10 to12 squadrons are to be produced, but the PAF will ultimately acquire up to 250 pieces. From 2011, 15-16 aircraft will be produced annually, which may eventually be increased to 25 per year.

It is hoped the JF-17 will provide a low-cost replacement for a number of developing countries currently operating ageing MiG-21/F-7 and F-5 aircraft, such as Azerbaijan, Algeria, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia, Morocco, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and Nigeria. Some of these nations have already confirmed orders.

Specification

The JF-17 is powered by a single Russian RD-93 turbofan engine, a widely used model known to be reliable. The turbofan design gives more thrust and significantly lower specific fuel consumption than a turbojet engine. The engine has gained attention for its acceleration and quick response, with test pilots describing reactions as "virtually instantaneous". Using a single engine also significantly reduces both maintenance time and cost.

"Initially, about 10 to12 squadrons are to be produced, but the PAF will ultimately acquire up to 250 pieces."The aircraft can be armed with up to 3,629kg (8,000lb) of air-to-air and air-to-ground ordnance along with other equipment mounted externally on the aircraft. The glass cockpit, meanwhile, incorporates an electronic flight instrument system (EFIS) and a wide-angle head-up display (HUD), and it has a minimum total field of view of 25 degrees. The EFIS provides basic flight information, as well as tactical, engine, fuel, electrical, hydraulics, flight control and environment control systems information. The HUD and multi-function display (MFD) are 'smart' (meaning they can be configured by the pilot to show any of the available information), the avionics system is all-digital and fully integrated, and the solid state avionics is of a modular design.

Several radars were tested onboard prototypes of the JF-17, including Israel's Elta EL/M-2032, Russia's Phazotron Super Komar, Italy's FIAR Grifo-S7, Brittain's GEC-Marconi Blue Hawk and France's Thomson-CSF RC-400. However, a Chinese radar was selected for the first batch of craft, although Italy and France are in the running for future contracts, according to reports.

The software written for the avionics comprises more than one million lines of instructions, making use of the concept of open architecture. This software is written using the popular civilian C++ programming language, rather than a military language such as Ada, to better utilise the large number of civilian software programmers available in the market.

Building

The production of JF-17 parts and components begun as far back as 2005 and manufacture of its sub-assemblies started in 2008. The production of major assemblies is undertaken by Pakistan's large public sector units (PSUs), while parts and components are provided by private-sector suppliers.

Pakistan has a highly skilled and trained technical workforce - a prerequisite for the manufacture of an indigenous aircraft - that can be cheaper to employ when compared with other areas around the world. For example, some of the workforce deployed for the production of the JF-17 are retired personnel from the Pakistan Air Force. This manpower is available at a rate of $10 per hour whereas the international market can charge up to $45 per hour.

"The total cost of the JF-17 programme is US$500m."It is this cost-effectiveness that led the PAF to take on the task of making its own aircraft. The unit production cost of a JF-17 translates into approximately US$15 million apiece whereas a multi-role aircraft in the international market is available for US$50m a piece. Overall, the total cost of the JF-17 programme is US$500m, divided equally between China and Pakistan.

Furthermore, Pakistan will earn a good exchange rate through the sale of this aircraft and its associated spares to other countries, keep its retired aircraft workers employed, and provide the country's internal market with new opportunities to build technologies and develop new innovations

Thanks for excerpt from Air Force Technology magazine article. After AFM, an article in Air Force Technology Magazine is highly welcome and helps JF-17 immensely. A good read.

JF 17 - Pakistan's Pride - Air Force Technology

 

[Dr sim]

As I said many times earlier, the goal of the JF-17 isn't only to serve as a cheap expendable workhorse, but a low-cost lightweight multi-role fighter. Don't get caught up in the continuous pessimist bombardment of JF-17 being low performance.

The JF-17 won't just be an interceptor, it will adopt mission profiles such as precision-strike through various formats. This includes the use of stand-off glide-bombs (such as H2/H4), guided munitions (similar to JDAM), anti-radiation missiles (such as MAR-1), stand-off ALCMs (such as Ra'ad), anti-ship and general purpose air-to-surface missiles. Generally speaking, adopting such mission profiles would require the JF-17 to possess a modern and effective ECM/EW suite (as is the case with Block-52+ and MLU). And don't forget data-link.

This isn't easy to acquire nowadays. Secondly, the radar will also be uprated, and the PAF is already studying the scope of AESA radars. Thirdly, the air-to-air capability of JF-17 will be enhanced through the use of the helmet mounted display and sight (HMD/S - similar to JHMCS), allowing to use 5th-generation HOBS WVRAAM such as A-Darter - as well as perhaps enhancing to air-to-ground capability as well. This is above and beyond a simple F-7 replacement, and the fact that such capability could be available to PAF in full numbers really does make it something.

Yeah with all the upgrades that u mentioned ,Jf-17 will be no doubt be a true 4+ generation fighter. but upgrades require time, money and technologically advanced friends willing to help you.
France already dealt Jf-17 a major blow by denying avionics for it and now Russia denying its engine. though China can offer replacements to Pakistan for both but u cant really compare and compete with the experience of France and Russia in both these fields. So for me JF-17 is getting downgraded before getting upgraded.
Inspite of all the hurdles mentioned above ,lets say in next 7-8 years Jf-17 gets all the upgrades BUT in next 7-8 years India would have also progressed a great deal with MRCA and PAK FA coming into IAF.

I think PAF did not procure any advanced platform in 90s which is why it is at a disadvantage to IAF right now both in technology and in numbers. With India gaining more influence in this world day by day it is obvious that India will ty its best to deny advanced technology to Pakistan and a couple of examples with France and Russia is there for everyone to see.Even the F-16s PAF has comes with no use against india agreement(atleast in papers)
So if PAF wants to upgrade JF_17 either they will have to develop indigenous capability or diversify the countries from which it procures weapons and stop relying on China for everything.

 

[IceCold]

Yeah with all the upgrades that u mentioned ,Jf-17 will be no doubt be a true 4+ generation fighter. but upgrades require time, money and technologically advanced friends willing to help you.
France already dealt Jf-17 a major blow by denying avionics for it and now Russia denying its engine. though China can offer replacements to Pakistan for both but u cant really compare and compete with the experience of France and Russia in both these fields. So for me JF-17 is getting downgraded before getting upgraded.
Inspite of all the hurdles mentioned above ,lets say in next 7-8 years Jf-17 gets all the upgrades BUT in next 7-8 years India would have also progressed a great deal with MRCA and PAK FA coming into IAF.

I think PAF did not procure any advanced platform in 90s which is why it is at a disadvantage to IAF right now both in technology and in numbers. With India gaining more influence in this world day by day it is obvious that India will ty its best to deny advanced technology to Pakistan and a couple of examples with France and Russia is there for everyone to see.Even the F-16s PAF has comes with no use against india agreement(atleast in papers)
So if PAF wants to upgrade JF_17 either they will have to develop indigenous capability or diversify the countries from which it procures weapons and stop relying on China for everything.

There are a couple of errors in your post, allow me to correct:

First as per the ACM of Pakistan the French deal is still on and what ever rumors were spread were nothing more then an attempt to mischief as per the ACM.

Second The rumors about RD-93 getting canceled is also another rumor. Just because the bureaus of both Mig and Sukhoi said about Russian decision of selling RD-93 to Pakistan as a point of concern as JF-17 is directly competing with the Russian MIG for the Egyptian tender does not mean the deal is off but even if we agree for argument sake, Pakistan already posses enough RD-93 both for JF-17 squardon as well as spares.

Third As pointed out many times before F-16s have no restrictions over its use.This is yet again another false story circulated in the media to serve a certain agenda and we all know whos behind this. Do you really believe those 500 AMRAAMs are for taliban.

 

[Dr sim]

There are a couple of errors in your post, allow me to correct:

First as per the ACM of Pakistan the French deal is still on and what ever rumors were spread were nothing more then an attempt to mischief as per the ACM.

Second The rumors about RD-93 getting canceled is also another rumor. Just because the bureaus of both Mig and Sukhoi said about Russian decision of selling RD-93 to Pakistan as a point of concern as JF-17 is directly competing with the Russian MIG for the Egyptian tender does not mean the deal is off but even if we agree for argument sake, Pakistan already posses enough RD-93 both for JF-17 squardon as well as spares.

Third As pointed out many times before F-16s have no restrictions over its use.This is yet again another false story circulated in the media to serve a certain agenda and we all know whos behind this. Do you really believe those 500 AMRAAMs are for taliban.

So everything that is not in favour of JF-17 is a rumour.
The stuff about French avionics and engines is not a media speculation but come from some very credible sources like the french govt and the chairman of MIG and Sukhoi. Engine is one of the parts of fighter jet which takes most amount of beating and if u do not manufacture it indigeneously u can never have enuf spares. Pakistan does not make RD-93 and Russia is not going to repare it for u. So if PAF wants to fly JF_17 for another 15-20 yrs they will have come up with something else.

I know AMRAAMs are not for taliban that is why i said only in papers.

 

[KSRaj]

The RD-93s helped us get the JF-17s up and running, we can use the ~40-50 engines we already have to fly our initial block-1, and then perhaps slowly replace the engines with WS-13s. Judging by the terms the Indians get their engines on, stuff like having to send their engine back to Russia before they get a replacement and so on, perhaps this isn't so bad

The original version of RD-93 that India uses is actually made in India.

 

[Koga Ryu]

The original version of RD-93 that India uses is actually made in India.

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Then PAF should buy from Indian why involve with Russian. LOL

 

[Qasibr]

The original version of RD-93 that India uses is actually made in India.

Yes I'm aware that India has a licence to assemble the RD-33 engine, used in their MiG-29s. India still has to send back their AL-31 engines to Russia for repairs and stuff, Russia does not send them a replacement engine until the malfunctioning one has been returned first.

Apparently this was an issue when the Indians participated in Red Flag, because Terrence Fornof talks about it in his seminar about the exercise.

 

[Qasibr]

So everything that is not in favour of JF-17 is a rumour.
The stuff about French avionics and engines is not a media speculation but come from some very credible sources like the french govt and the chairman of MIG and Sukhoi. Engine is one of the parts of fighter jet which takes most amount of beating and if u do not manufacture it indigeneously u can never have enuf spares. Pakistan does not make RD-93 and Russia is not going to repare it for u. So if PAF wants to fly JF_17 for another 15-20 yrs they will have come up with something else.

I know AMRAAMs are not for taliban that is why i said only in papers.

No, but alot of the things you said were superfluous. The French stuff is speculation, because it comes from "some very credible" unnamed sources. The PAF head looked into it, and went on record saying that the deal was still on. Now that is a very reliable source.

The chairman of the UAC was criticizing his government's decision to sell the engine, he was talking about how the JF-17/FC-1 would compete with his company's MiG-29 in various markets and that aircraft manufacturers should have been consulted. That is not the same as the Russian govt cancelling the contract.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Guys we have many other options....
Engine can be bought from China......
Radar from Itlay
Weapons suite from Brazil and South Africa.
___________________________________

By the way there is no official newz that France or Russia cancelling weapons,radar or engine deals.

 

[hardtarget]

yes there is no news abt canceling deals

 

[IceCold]

So everything that is not in favour of JF-17 is a rumour.
The stuff about French avionics and engines is not a media speculation but come from some very credible sources like the french govt and the chairman of MIG and Sukhoi. Engine is one of the parts of fighter jet which takes most amount of beating and if u do not manufacture it indigeneously u can never have enuf spares. Pakistan does not make RD-93 and Russia is not going to repare it for u. So if PAF wants to fly JF_17 for another 15-20 yrs they will have come up with something else.

I know AMRAAMs are not for taliban that is why i said only in papers.

Not credible against the ACM of Pakistan who has stated himself that the French deal is still active. As for the Engine we have only heard like i mentioned what the chairman of MIG and Sukhoi have to say. The Government stance is yet to come so unless government calls the deal off, its active and besides Like i said before Pakistan already has enough engines and by that time WS-13 will be certified as the progress is well on track.

The restrictions on F-16s is not even on papers. I would like you to read the statement of the ACM in this regard in the inducting ceremony of the F-16s. You will find numerous articles in the F-16 thread.

 

[gowthamraj]

Yes I'm aware that India has a licence to assemble the RD-33 engine, used in their MiG-29s. India still has to send back their AL-31 engines to Russia for repairs and stuff, Russia does not send them a replacement engine until the malfunctioning one has been returned first.

Apparently this was an issue when the Indians participated in Red Flag, because Terrence Fornof talks about it in his seminar about the exercise.

Although it is off topic, i want to enlighten you.


I dont know why that us air men give that false information on mig and Sukhoi.

Hal set up manufacturing and overhal facilities for Sukhoi engines too in the city nasik. Which is a part of tot.

 

[TOPGUN]

Funny a member said india is lic for the rd eng's why not ask them hahah yes then thunders would be really falling out of the sky .Furthermore, to some that are in fear .. about our new f-16's please wake up there are no rist.. at all for them to be used if and when needed.