JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[Qasibr]

Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak jets | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

This might not be that bad. Russia has terrible engine terms with India, when the IAF attended Red Flag, one of the problems they faced was that they were required to actually send any malfunctioning engines back to Russia before they got a replacement. Definitely wouldn't want that in any wartime scenario for Pak.

I was a little confused by this recent news that China had ordered another 100 improved RD-93 engines(ostensibly for Pakistan, because China seems understandibly doesn't want it's jets dependent on foreign whims any more than neccessary). It didn't make sense because China had, in the last few months, conducted successful taxi runs on FC-1's using WS-13 engines and it seemed like development for that engine was coming along steadily.

So perhaps this move on China's part to push Russia for more RDs was to pave way for their own WS-13 engines to be used in sold aircraft. Even buyers who operate Russian aircraft already wouldn't insist on having RD-93 powered aircraft if Russia is the one refusing to supply.

At any rate, I'd prefer it went down like it is, with Russians refusing to supply early on, rather than at a time when we have a fleet of 150/250 JF-17s operating off their engines. We used their engines as a stopgap, to get our aircraft up and running until the Chinese WS-13 came along, and now we can slowly convert our existing fleet to this engine, and use it for newer aircraft that we locally produce.

 

[WAQAS119]

So is it going to be a flying display or static ?

Quote from the article:

Two aircraft will display their flying characteristics during the course of the biennial show where leading world defence manufacturers often unveil their latest aviation tools.PAF Chief Air Chief Marshal Rao Suleman Qamar is expected to be present on the occasion.

 

[Crypto]

In the other thread someone mentioned, jf17 will not be flying.

 

[Areesh]

Quote from the article:

So it will be flying in the air show.... Great.

 

[graphican]

Under normal circumstances, a joint venture is undertaken by a group of countries when they complement each other technologically/financially.a few examples are
1.F-35: a jv b/n(USA,UK,Australia,italy,netherland,turkey etc and all of the mentioned countries are going to be inducting it.
2. PAK-FA/FGFA-India and Russia
3.Barak II-India and Israel
etc etc
So you are suggesting that Jf-17 is a JV b/n china and pakistan with china ending up building it only for pakistan. I m sorry i do not understand what kind of JV is this?
from what I have researched ,PLAAF did not induct FC-1/JF-17 because they were not satisfied with its capabilities. I m not saying that Jf-17 is a good/bad fighter what i intend to say if a country which co-developed this fighter(and has the same adversary as Pakistan) did not induct it then it raises some serious concerns
After all the jet that both Pakistan and China are thinking of intercepting is same.(Su-30MKI)

As a matter of fact is that China accepted Pakistan's cooperation and found it worthy enough for the Joint Venture for JF-17 and even for coming projects in the pipeline. You can keep fining why and how China went for it and is still doing so while we are using this potent war-machine to defend our borders. It doesn't matter what you try to imagine in the initial chapters but bottom line of the story is that simple.

 

[graphican]

Russia blocks sale of engines for Sino-Pak jets | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

Doesn't matter anymore.. WS-13 is in production and JF-17 with this engine installed has been having taxi-trials.

 

[Qasibr]

@Graphican My point exactly. The RD-93s helped us get the JF-17s up and running, we can use the ~40-50 engines we already have to fly our initial block-1, and then perhaps slowly replace the engines with WS-13s. Judging by the terms the Indians get their engines on, stuff like having to send their engine back to Russia before they get a replacement and so on, perhaps this isn't so bad

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

In order for paf to go ahead with the current batch of JF 17's under the circumstances ie purchase of engines from russia by the chinese---they would have to have at least two engines per aircraft---one mounted on the aircraft and one in reserve to go ahead with the production.

That would be a prudent thing to do---even at a number of 3 engines for two planes----paf would do fine for a while---the spare parts of this engine are easily available to keep it flying at 110% of its capacity for many a years---.

After that---obviously---we will have the WS 13 ( as corrected by black blood ) come into the picture.

It is not the mig 29 issue ( even though it is in a minor way )---russia is desperate to get the MRCA. The mig 29 issue was there when roxon--- agreed to supply the engines and the russian govt approved it.

 

[Kompromat]

Hi,

In order for paf to go ahead with the current batch of JF 17's under the circumstances ie purchase of engines from russia by the chinese---they would have to have at least two engines per aircraft---one mounted on the aircraft and one in reserve to go ahead with the production.

That would be a prudent thing to do---even at a number of 3 engines for two planes----paf would do fine for a while---the spare parts of this engine are easily available to keep it flying at 110% of its capacity for many a years---.

After that---obviously---we will have the WS 10 come into the picture.

It is not the mig 29 issue ( even though it is in a minor way )---russia is desperate to get the MRCA. The mig 29 issue was there when roxon--- agreed to supply the engines and the russian govt approved it.

WS-13 MK because WS-10 is too big to fit in Thunder's fuselage.

 

[Super Falcon]

hen the time came to replace its large, obsolete fleet with modern, lightweight, multi-role combat aircraft, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) opted for a low-cost solution and not pricier Western designs. The result was an aircraft that could be manufactured in Pakistan in collaboration with the People's Republic of China - the lightweight fighter bomber JF-17 Thunder.

Developed by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex and Chengdu Aircraft Industry, China, production is being undertaken at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra.

The PAF officially inducted its first JF-17 squadron on 18 February this year. Initially, about 10 to12 squadrons are to be produced, but the PAF will ultimately acquire up to 250 pieces. From 2011, 15-16 aircraft will be produced annually, which may eventually be increased to 25 per year.

It is hoped the JF-17 will provide a low-cost replacement for a number of developing countries currently operating ageing MiG-21/F-7 and F-5 aircraft, such as Azerbaijan, Algeria, Sudan, Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, Egypt, Iran, Lebanon, Malaysia, Morocco, Myanmar, Sri Lanka and Nigeria. Some of these nations have already confirmed orders.

Specification

The JF-17 is powered by a single Russian RD-93 turbofan engine, a widely used model known to be reliable. The turbofan design gives more thrust and significantly lower specific fuel consumption than a turbojet engine. The engine has gained attention for its acceleration and quick response, with test pilots describing reactions as "virtually instantaneous". Using a single engine also significantly reduces both maintenance time and cost.

"Initially, about 10 to12 squadrons are to be produced, but the PAF will ultimately acquire up to 250 pieces."The aircraft can be armed with up to 3,629kg (8,000lb) of air-to-air and air-to-ground ordnance along with other equipment mounted externally on the aircraft. The glass cockpit, meanwhile, incorporates an electronic flight instrument system (EFIS) and a wide-angle head-up display (HUD), and it has a minimum total field of view of 25 degrees. The EFIS provides basic flight information, as well as tactical, engine, fuel, electrical, hydraulics, flight control and environment control systems information. The HUD and multi-function display (MFD) are 'smart' (meaning they can be configured by the pilot to show any of the available information), the avionics system is all-digital and fully integrated, and the solid state avionics is of a modular design.

Several radars were tested onboard prototypes of the JF-17, including Israel's Elta EL/M-2032, Russia's Phazotron Super Komar, Italy's FIAR Grifo-S7, Brittain's GEC-Marconi Blue Hawk and France's Thomson-CSF RC-400. However, a Chinese radar was selected for the first batch of craft, although Italy and France are in the running for future contracts, according to reports.

The software written for the avionics comprises more than one million lines of instructions, making use of the concept of open architecture. This software is written using the popular civilian C++ programming language, rather than a military language such as Ada, to better utilise the large number of civilian software programmers available in the market.

Building

The production of JF-17 parts and components begun as far back as 2005 and manufacture of its sub-assemblies started in 2008. The production of major assemblies is undertaken by Pakistan's large public sector units (PSUs), while parts and components are provided by private-sector suppliers.

Pakistan has a highly skilled and trained technical workforce - a prerequisite for the manufacture of an indigenous aircraft - that can be cheaper to employ when compared with other areas around the world. For example, some of the workforce deployed for the production of the JF-17 are retired personnel from the Pakistan Air Force. This manpower is available at a rate of $10 per hour whereas the international market can charge up to $45 per hour.

"The total cost of the JF-17 programme is US$500m."It is this cost-effectiveness that led the PAF to take on the task of making its own aircraft. The unit production cost of a JF-17 translates into approximately US$15 million apiece whereas a multi-role aircraft in the international market is available for US$50m a piece. Overall, the total cost of the JF-17 programme is US$500m, divided equally between China and Pakistan.

Furthermore, Pakistan will earn a good exchange rate through the sale of this aircraft and its associated spares to other countries, keep its retired aircraft workers employed, and provide the country's internal market with new opportunities to build technologies and develop new innovations

 

[theboss]

As a matter of fact is that China accepted Pakistan's cooperation and found it worthy enough for the Joint Venture for JF-17 and even for coming projects in the pipeline. You can keep fining why and how China went for it and is still doing so while we are using this potent war-machine to defend our borders. It doesn't matter what you try to imagine in the initial chapters but bottom line of the story is that simple.

JF 17 is not going to be any mega capable fighter. It is just a Pakistani measure to replace their agening fleet of small fighters. But everyone has to start somewhere and Sino-Pak collboration rolling out a sucessfuly bird was a good head start. Just because chinese dont induct it does not make is a failed project. The final destination for Sino-Pak is FC20.

 

[SEAL]

JF-17 is best in his role "Interception", "Precision Bombing" and "Close Air support" especially when you have to counter Cold start doctrine Army needs close air support and you can't take risks with 60 F-16s.
JF-17 with the price tag 15million$ can do the job.

J-10B n J-11B are air superiority fighters their role is totally different.

 

[Quwa]

As I said many times earlier, the goal of the JF-17 isn't only to serve as a cheap expendable workhorse, but a low-cost lightweight multi-role fighter. Don't get caught up in the continuous pessimist bombardment of JF-17 being low performance.

The JF-17 won't just be an interceptor, it will adopt mission profiles such as precision-strike through various formats. This includes the use of stand-off glide-bombs (such as H2/H4), guided munitions (similar to JDAM), anti-radiation missiles (such as MAR-1), stand-off ALCMs (such as Ra'ad), anti-ship and general purpose air-to-surface missiles. Generally speaking, adopting such mission profiles would require the JF-17 to possess a modern and effective ECM/EW suite (as is the case with Block-52+ and MLU). And don't forget data-link.

This isn't easy to acquire nowadays. Secondly, the radar will also be uprated, and the PAF is already studying the scope of AESA radars. Thirdly, the air-to-air capability of JF-17 will be enhanced through the use of the helmet mounted display and sight (HMD/S - similar to JHMCS), allowing to use 5th-generation HOBS WVRAAM such as A-Darter - as well as perhaps enhancing to air-to-ground capability as well. This is above and beyond a simple F-7 replacement, and the fact that such capability could be available to PAF in full numbers really does make it something.

 

[hataf]

JF 17 is not going to be any mega capable fighter. It is just a Pakistani measure to replace their agening fleet of small fighters. But everyone has to start somewhere and Sino-Pak collboration rolling out a sucessfuly bird was a good head start. Just because chinese dont induct it does not make is a failed project. The final destination for Sino-Pak is FC20.

FC-20 is just one step out of many steps not the final destination

inshallah

 

[Qasibr]

JF 17 is not going to be any mega capable fighter. It is just a Pakistani measure to replace their agening fleet of small fighters. But everyone has to start somewhere and Sino-Pak collboration rolling out a sucessfuly bird was a good head start. Just because chinese dont induct it does not make is a failed project. The final destination for Sino-Pak is FC20.

The Chinese still might induct it yet. They've been conducting all sorts of tests on it, late last year their news agencies reported that the aircraft had passed their design verification. A big hurdle in them inducting it is the engine. They naturally don't want to be dependant on the Russians too much, it's led to problems for them in the past. And they've conducted successful taxi trials using the WS13 engine a few months ago.

I don't think the JF-17 aircraft is necessarily bound to mediocrity. The basic initial design it's based on, is that of the MiG-33, which was going to be the Soviet F-16. And the JF is much better than the original F-16, as discussed on this forum previously, alot of PAF pilots competed to switch to the JF program. And other than that, even from a technological standpoint, the aircraft's superior to earlier F-16 blocks and only marginally inferior to block 40+.

And it's only in it's first iteration, let's see what JF-17 block 20/2 can do. The USAF is going to fly the F-16 for atleast another decade and very likely more. Our little JF-17 shouldn't be counted out just yet, it's got decades to evolve and progress.