JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[Ibr0kEmYrAz0r]

JF-17 will serve as a backbone for the fleet, building up infrastructure, etc. mainly to counter Indian air force's Mirage-2000/Mig-29/HAL Tejas etc, the old F-7PG are enough to take care of Mig-21/27/Jaguars etc.

To be realistic, no need to blow the matter out of proportion, even I like the plane, I'm sure it will put up a good fight for MKI, but that's it, a good fight, no need to hyper something that is is not designed to be. To use a light fighter against a heavy fighter in 1-to-1, is purely academical, and not really fair. When you can have 2 vs 1, 3 vs 1, use it to your advantage. War isn't about fairness, it is about winning.

If someone really want to go down the old route, then should at least use aircraft per dollar per time_to_make ratio to measure, say $100 million worth of JF-17 produced locally in Pakistan versus $100 million worth Su-30 MKI produced locally in India in, say, 3 months, then compare that way.

 

[MastanKhan]

Although i do agree with some points you made, however just because we can't go over to their side doesn't really mean we have lost the war!

There is a famous quote "never let the enemy choose the battle field" (Forgot by who this quote is from). So in this case if IAF were to cross our border we would be ready and well prepared because this is our home and no one knows it better than us! We might have inferior equipment compared to the indians (at least for now), but that doesn't mean we can't cause losses on the indians! If their SU-30's intrude into our airspace then we can use our SAM's and our Air force to knock them out of the sky very easily!

this is just my opinion!

Hi,

Thanks for your comments. It really doesnot work that way.

The first rule of war is to not have a war---keep the enemy away from your borders---keep the aggression on the side of the enemy as much as you can.

How is our air force going to knock them out---they have 124 su 30's right now---so if they deploy 62 of them against pakistan---how are you going to counter those numbers.

Numerically---you are at a loss---technically you are at a loss---ground to air missile batteries will possibly be neutralized in three to five days at the most---maybe one week---so what do you have left.

The air war has to be fought on india's side as much as on pakistan's side.

Fighting in our backyard is letting the ENEMY CHOSE THE BATTLE FIELD---I believe that you misunderstood the meaning of that phrase.

According to your last para---it seems evident that we are accepting defeat after we do some serious damage to the enemy---. You ought to have a mindset that we are going to the other side and take them on---on their ground.

Starting from your side means that you are already playing with a handicap----seems like Mohammad Yousuf's strategy against the australians in the test match.

 

[Storm Force]

Master Khan.

I genuinely feel that PAF will not induct anywhere near 200 Thunders by 2016-2017 as some forum members are suggesting.

And i dont feel you can make the Thunder a real hitech mid 4th gen fighter.

At best i think the Thunder will be inducted to 150 planes in 3 batches. The First batch we see today with chinease weaopons and radar. The next 2 will improve with chinease engine but western radar and dual chinease/western weapons.

I do feel how ever when the FC20 hits the PAF in 2014 THE power and performance of the new chinease fighter which is a real mid 4TH gen fighter will make PAF find more resouces for this beauty. AT THE EXPENSE of fewer Thunders.

By 2020 PAF could be fielding as thus

150 Thunders 1/2/3
100 fc20
100 F16 52/ MLU

 

[SomeGuy]

Source ? Also what do you think will be the next radar ?

Wont MLU help in increasing the power or something like that to incorporate Ibris ? -- The point i am tryin to make is -- Ibris has been a evolution from Bars , so its a logical ugrade ..

This is a JF17 thread -- Please send me message of you can post in Su 30 thread.

Replied in this thread.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/64207-iaf-upgrade-su-30-fighter-aircraft.html#post974860

 

[Desert Fox]

Hi,

Thanks for your comments. It really doesnot work that way.

The first rule of war is to not have a war---keep the enemy away from your borders---keep the aggression on the side of the enemy as much as you can.

Sir, In Pakistan's case this cannot happen, as you have stated yourself the indians have both technological and numerical superiority!

How is our air force going to knock them out---they have 124 su 30's right now---so if they deploy 62 of them against pakistan---how are you going to counter those numbers.

Sir, we're not that weak that we can't inflict damage on our enemies on our own ground!

SAM's are meant to be used, we can use SAM's and our F-16 blk 52 right, or are all these weapons for showing off?

Numerically---you are at a loss---technically you are at a loss---

Then i don't see any reason for why we are spending all this money on JF-17's, F-16's, AWACs, and SAM's if all of this will be useless in a time of war!

ground to air missile batteries will possibly be neutralized in three to five days at the most---maybe one week---so what do you have left.

Not exactly, how can they take out our SAM's with their air force without us being able to shoot them down first?, unless we are asleep i don't see any other way they can take out our batteries.

The air war has to be fought on india's side as much as on pakistan's side.

In order to take the fight to india's side we have to weaken IAF, and the only way to do that is to engage them on our own ground where we have the advantage, once they have lost a lot of their aircraft and pilots then we can move into their territory.

According to your last para---it seems evident that we are accepting defeat after we do some serious damage to the enemy---. You ought to have a mindset that we are going to the other side and take them on---on their ground.

That would be foolish unless weaken IAF first. I agree that we should take the fight to enemy's side, but you yourself said we don't have numerical nor technological superiority that the indians have so how can we go right ahead into their side where they will have SAM's, jammers, advance AWACs etc?

JF-17's and F-16's can't carry as much payload as a SU-30's so how will our pilots be able to resupply themselves with missiles in enemy territory? SU-30 can carry 10 BVR missiles while JF-17 can carry only 2 alongside fuel tanks

Starting from your side means that you are already playing with a handicap----seems like Mohammad Yousuf's strategy against the australians in the test match.

You can't compare aerial battles with wrestling or sports matches!

You exhaust the enemy on your ground and then you take the fight to their home!

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir, In Pakistan's case this cannot happen, as you have stated yourself the indians have both technological and numerical superiority!



Sir, we're not that weak that we can't inflict damage on our enemies on our own ground!

SAM's are meant to be used, we can use SAM's and our F-16 blk 52 right, or are all these weapons for showing off?



Then i don't see any reason for why we are spending all this money on JF-17's, F-16's, AWACs, and SAM's if all of this will be useless in a time of war!



Not exactly, how can they take out our SAM's with their air force without us being able to shoot them down first?, unless we are asleep i don't see any other way they can take out our batteries.



In order to take the fight to india's side we have to weaken IAF, and the only way to do that is to engage them on our own ground where we have the advantage, once they have lost a lot of their aircraft and pilots then we can move into their territory.



That would be foolish unless weaken IAF first. I agree that we should take the fight to enemy's side, but you yourself said we don't have numerical nor technological superiority that the indians have so how can we go right ahead into their side where they will have SAM's, jammers, advance AWACs etc?

JF-17's and F-16's can't carry as much payload as a SU-30's so how will our pilots be able to resupply themselves with missiles in enemy territory? SU-30 can carry 10 BVR missiles while JF-17 can carry only 2 alongside fuel tanks



You can't compare aerial battles with wrestling or sports matches!

You exhaust the enemy on your ground and then you take the fight to their home!

Hi,

Thankyou for your time---but that was a wasted response---you still have to learn a lot about warfare and combat.

Just because you carry two bvr's doesnot mean that you sit and wait at home---what time of replenishment are you talking about the jf 17's with its two bvr's---you think that they will shoot land---load and get back in fight---with the su 30 with a ship load of missiles----KID YOU ARE SO SIMPLE---they will either die in the air or kill the enemy and then die in the air.

Once the iaf caught momentum---they will make the final push to the deepest end. That is why you dare them to fight in their background----let the indians see the su 30's coming down in amritsar and srinagar and adampur---let them see the might of their air forces falling down from the skies---let them live in panic for a while.

The same fight that pak planes with their bvr's can do over pakistan---they can do the same over hindustan---. Coming home---ask MuradK and other pilots on this board if they were thinking of coming home.

Guy----you don't need a ship load of bombs now a days---you only need to carry two to four smart bombs----these smart bombs are a 50 times more devastating than the dumb bombs.

Hard points are for show----that is why I sometimes laugh at kids talking about hard points all the time---. Smart bombs rule---smrt weapons rule---on most deep strike missions the plane may not even have any missile for defencie purpose except for one smart bomb or maybe two.

Penetration through into the enemy territory is the keyword----you cannot do it with a full bomb load.

The days of loading a bomber with full load against strategic targets inside enemy territory are gone. Dumb bombs are against open targets----like troops----enemy convoys on the move or hidden tank and gun positions.

What are you talking about reloading----these will be one way trips into enemy territory with one way trip permits---the only bonus that you will get is if the strike aircrat finds the target in his sights and makes a delivery.

About the destruction of missile batteries---reading your comments---I can comment much---I don't want to get you mad at me any more---.

Just because they have technical superiority doesnot mean that we will succumb to their power and act like mush---we will take the battle into their courtyard---and if we have to meet our maker than what better place to meet HIM in the enemy territory.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

During some of the missions in iraq during the second GW---some F 16's would be only loaded with one smart bomb---and no offencive weapons at all----no air to air missiles---maybe machine gun rounds---a single plane for that ultimate mission all by itself with its saviour planes flying far behind to come to the rescue only and only after the load was delivered---meaning if the aircraft faced enemy planes---it was by himself---with the priority on delivering the load first and foremost and no maneavours to disengage any enemy aircraft in pursuit of him.

Wars are terrible things----they make sane men do insane deeds of valour.

 

[Dr sim]

facepalm
please read or do some research before posting, it has proved useful for many of us ; may help your cause too.

if you logic is that JF-17 is fail because PLAFF is not inducting it than what about SU-30 only 12 are in service with Russian airforce and no more to be inducted they have moved on to Mig 35..

Russia is not operating a lot of Su-30 coz they have moved on to Su-35BM and a lot of technologies of Su-30 MKI are actually derived from Su-35 which is what makes it the best in all of Su-30 variants.Russian air force operates 0 Mig-35(still under development) And now lets come to numbers
IAF- 272(on order)
PlAAF-127+24(for navy)
Malaysia-18
Vietnam-20
Algeria-30
Indonesia-6
venezuela-36
uganda(included on request).lol-6
and then there is a long list of countries who wish they could afford it

 

[Areesh]

Russia is not operating a lot of Su-30 coz they have moved on to Su-35BM and a lot of technologies of Su-30 MKI are actually derived from Su-35 which is what makes it the best in all of Su-30 variants.Russian air force operates 0 Mig-35(still under development) And now lets come to numbers
IAF- 272(on order)
PlAAF-127+24(for navy)
Malaysia-18
Vietnam-20
and then there is a long list of countries who wish they could afford it

Include Uganda also.

Thanks.

 

[ice_man]

Google Translate

Sukhoi and MiG opposed the sale of engines to China
Российские авиастроительные компании РСК "МиГ" и ОКБ "Сухого" выступили против заключения нового контракта с Китаем на поставку двигателей РД-93, которые используются на китайских истребителях FC-1 и их экспортных вариантах. Russian aircraft company RSK MiG and OKB Sukhoi opposed a new contract with China for engines RD-93, which are used in the Chinese FC-1 fighters and export options. Как пишет "Коммерсант" , руководитель российских компаний Михаил Погосян полагает, что FC-1 является прямым конкурентом МиГ-29. Writes "Kommersant" , the head of Russian companies Mikhail Pogosyan believes that the FC-1 is a direct competitor of the MiG-29.

В письмах, направленных Федеральной службе по военно-техническому сотрудничеству (ФСВТ&#1057 и "Рособоронэкспорту", Погосян отметил, что повторный экспорт должен быть согласован с производителями финальной продукции, "чтобы реэкспорт не наносил им ущерба". The letters sent by the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) and Rosoboronexport, Pogosyan said that the re-export should be consistent with the final product manufacturers, "to re-export without prejudice." По данным "Коммерсанта", Погосян выступил против сделки с Китаем потому, что последний намерен поставлять FC-1 в Египет. According to Kommersant, Pogosyan opposed the deal with China because the latter intends to FC-1 in Egypt. На этот же рынок намерена выйти РСК "МиГ" с МиГ-29. At the same market going to go MiG with the MiG-29.

В апреле 2010 года Египет посетил заместитель гендиректора "Росборонэкспорта" Александр Михеев, который провел переговоры о возможной поставке стране 32 истребителей МиГ-29. In April 2010, visited Egypt, deputy director of "Rosboroneksporta" Alexander Mikheyev, who held talks on the possible supply of country 32 MiG-29. Параллельно египетские власти начали переговоры с китайской стороной о закупке FC-1. In parallel, the Egyptian authorities began negotiations with the Chinese side on the purchase FC-1. Кроме того, Египет также начал обсуждать с Пакистаном возможность совместного производства истребителей JF-17 Thunder - версии FC-1 для Пакистана. In addition, Egypt has also begun to discuss with Pakistan the possibility of joint production of JF-17 Thunder - version of FC-1 to Pakistan.

Как отмечает газета, FC-1 (JF-17) существенно уступают по характеристикам российскому МиГ-29, но стоят намного дешевле - десять миллионов долларов против 35 миллионов. As the newspaper notes, FC-1 (JF-17) significantly inferior to the characteristics of the Russian MiG-29, but cost much less - 10 million dollars against 35 million.

Контракт на поставку Китаю ста двигателей РД-93 на сумму в 238 миллионов долларов был заключен в 2005 году. The contract to supply China hundred RD-93 valued at 238 million dollars was signed in 2005. Исполнителем контракта является Московское машиностроительное предприятие имени Чернышева. Contractor contract is Moscow Engineering Plant named after Chernyshev. Кроме того, с Китаем было заключено рамочное соглашение на поставку 500 российских двигателей. In addition, China signed the framework agreement on delivery of 500 Russian engines. При этом китайская сторона объявила, что готова приобрести 1000 модернизированных силовых установок с увеличенной тягой. At the same time, China announced that it is ready to buy 1000 upgraded power plants with increased traction. Общая стоимость контракта оценивалась в 3,75 миллиарда долларов. The total contract value was estimated at 3.75 billion dollars.

Следует отметить, что Китай нередко прибегает к закупкам двигателей для своих истребителей в России. It should be noted that China has resorted to the procurement of engines for its fighters in Russia. В частности, в январе 2009 года страна купила в России 122 двигателя АЛ-31ФН для своего истребителя J-10. In particular, in January 2009 the country bought in Russia 122 AL-31FN engines for its J-10 fighter. Стоимость сделки составила полмиллиарда долларов. The purchase price amounted to half a billion dollars. Интересы России и Китая уже не в первый раз сталкиваются на мировом рынке. The interests of Russia and China is not the first time face to the world market. В 2008 году ВВС Индонезии объявили о намерении приобрести российские учебные самолеты Як-130 и китайские FTC-2000. In 2008, the Indonesian Air Force announced plans to purchase Russian training aircraft Yak-130 and Chinese FTC-2000. В 2009 году МиГ-29 выиграли тендер Мьянмы у китайских FC-1 и J-10. In 2009, the MiG-29 won the tender of Myanmar at the Chinese FC-1 and J-10.

good news is they think MIG29 is in direct competition with JF-17 the bad news is they are opposing sale of engine due to this reason!!

 

[rohailmalhi]

good news is they think MIG29 is in direct competition with JF-17 the bad news is they are opposing sale of engine due to this reason!!

I dont know y are they comparing it with Fulcrum , i think they are just making lame excuses to stop engine supply to Pakistan for JF17 program coz India might be building up pressure on them.

 

[WAQAS119]

good news is they think MIG29 is in direct competition with JF-17 the bad news is they are opposing sale of engine due to this reason!!

It is a really good news!!!!!!!!!! This will be really helpful for JF-17 Thunder's future, and I am talking about its image in world's defence market.

As far as bad part of news is concerned! I don't think that Sukhoi and Mig's concern matters infront of political implicatons, as we have seen Russians are looking for an opportunity to build their relationship with Pakistan.

 

[Crypto]

Russia is not operating a lot of Su-30 coz they have moved on to Su-35BM and a lot of technologies of Su-30 MKI are actually derived from Su-35 which is what makes it the best in all of Su-30 variants.Russian air force operates 0 Mig-35(still under development) And now lets come to numbers
IAF- 272(on order)
PlAAF-127+24(for navy)
Malaysia-18
Vietnam-20
Algeria-30
Indonesia-6
venezuela-36
uganda(included on request).lol-6
and then there is a long list of countries who wish they could afford it

the argument about SU30 was - it being not inducted in Russian AF doesn't mean its a fail - i know how many countries are operating SU30 and how many want it or that how good it is.

The underlying argument raised by yourself was that JF17 is fail because PLAAF is not inducting it - Please elaborate how this is a standard of measuring jet's efficiency? Do you think there could be other reasons behind PLAAF's decision?

kindly prove your hypothesis by hard facts - will be appreciated.

 

[WAQAS119]

Quote from the article:

Photo from defence.pk

Russian media also follows Defence.pk

 

[AVIAN]

Hi,

Thankyou for your time---but that was a wasted response---you still have to learn a lot about warfare and combat.

Just because you carry two bvr's doesnot mean that you sit and wait at home---what time of replenishment are you talking about the jf 17's with its two bvr's---you think that they will shoot land---load and get back in fight---with the su 30 with a ship load of missiles----KID YOU ARE SO SIMPLE---they will either die in the air or kill the enemy and then die in the air.

Once the iaf caught momentum---they will make the final push to the deepest end. That is why you dare them to fight in their background----let the indians see the su 30's coming down in amritsar and srinagar and adampur---let them see the might of their air forces falling down from the skies---let them live in panic for a while.

The same fight that pak planes with their bvr's can do over pakistan---they can do the same over hindustan---. Coming home---ask MuradK and other pilots on this board if they were thinking of coming home.

Guy----you don't need a ship load of bombs now a days---you only need to carry two to four smart bombs----these smart bombs are a 50 times more devastating than the dumb bombs.

Hard points are for show----that is why I sometimes laugh at kids talking about hard points all the time---. Smart bombs rule---smrt weapons rule---on most deep strike missions the plane may not even have any missile for defencie purpose except for one smart bomb or maybe two.

Penetration through into the enemy territory is the keyword----you cannot do it with a full bomb load.

The days of loading a bomber with full load against strategic targets inside enemy territory are gone. Dumb bombs are against open targets----like troops----enemy convoys on the move or hidden tank and gun positions.

What are you talking about reloading----these will be one way trips into enemy territory with one way trip permits---the only bonus that you will get is if the strike aircrat finds the target in his sights and makes a delivery.

About the destruction of missile batteries---reading your comments---I can comment much---I don't want to get you mad at me any more---.

Just because they have technical superiority doesnot mean that we will succumb to their power and act like mush---we will take the battle into their courtyard---and if we have to meet our maker than what better place to meet HIM in the enemy territory.

Truck loads of Dumb bombs still makes sense now a days especially to third world countries like India and Pakistan. Since Smart weapons are very difficult to use because of their Pricey nature as well as there should be sufficient intelligence of target on which it will going to be used. If intelligence supposed to be false and smart weapon get wasted then it will certainly going to cause rethink on the part of planners to make use of same anymore.