JF-17 & Su-30 - Which will track & fire first?

[amardeep mishra]

The claim still stands because your "links" are basically quoting the overall effective range of the radar ... the range for a standard fighter size have been presented from 3-4 different sources ... and you haven't presented any source countering that claim ... therefore it still stands ...



Counter question ... what makes you think an important system such as the radar of a fighter jet ... which is slated for exports, will have false claims on it marketing material .. In an age where normal day consumers sue the living $hit out of companies whose claims don't meet the performance of their product ...

you would seriously have us assume because of "lack of information" that a company would go out and state inflated figures of its product, and that too of a high involvement product which usually involves state to state negotiations and that the interested party will test before purchasing....

My only concern is, how can N011M with peak power of close to 7kW and aperture dia of almost 1m have a range of just 10kms more than an ordinary slotted planar array(basically waveguides) I.e KLJ7 that has not only lesser aperture dia but also lesser peak power- note you can calculate average power using the duty cycle, hence I'm not counting that in
Secondly I'm not even talking about the inherent ability of a phased array to produce multi beam and simultaneously track a lot more targets than an ordinary slotted planar array.if you're wondering I precisely worked on passive phased array- especially the beam forming and little bit of signal processing.in fact to your surprise our own LRDE's AESA radar has a peak power of close to 3kW and fully digital beam forming

 

[abdulbarijan]

My only concern is, how can N011M with peak power of close to 7kW and aperture dia of almost 1m have a range of just 10kms more than an ordinary slotted planar array(basically waveguides) I.e KLJ7 that has not only lesser aperture dia but also lesser peak power- note you can calculate average power using the duty cycle, hence I'm not counting that in
Secondly I'm not even talking about the inherent ability of a phased array to produce multi beam and simultaneously track a lot more targets than an ordinary slotted planar array.if you're wondering I precisely worked on passive phased array- especially the beam forming and little bit of signal processing.in fact to your surprise our own LRDE's AESA radar has a peak power of close to 3kW and fully digital beam forming

My argument as previously stated would be ... if the claims made were over inflated etc etc. what would happen when it becomes part of the consideration set of an airforce ...which is usually followed up by showing interest, negotiations, testing, decision etc.

Airforces today can go out and buy second hand frames and upgrade them to have them service in their fleet or they can simply go for second hand proven platforms (mig-29/F-16 etc.) with enough life on them --- So in such conditions, where being part of the customer's consideration set is itself a problem, stating over inflated figures for systems etc. would be, atleast marketing wise ....suicidal ....

translation credits -Plawolf

Kanwa had an interview with PAF's General Javaid Ahmed, during which he stated that:
- In 2012, they will be bring out the JF17 Blk 2. The main improvements are the addition of IRF, the development of a twin seat version, adding datalink and development of an export version JF17.
- happy with the performance of the KJL7, so no immediate plans to switch to AESA (KJL7 specs: detection range for fighter sized target 130km; can track 16 targets and engage 2 at the same time; have SAR mapping capability)
- The Chinese indigenous engine is currently undergoing flight testing and may be a while before it is fitted to a JF17
- In 2011 the JF17 test fired: 1 x C802 (hit a seaborne target 90km away, max range 180km); 2 x LS-6 bombs, one is a 500kg GPS guided weapon with 60km range and CEP of 15m, the other was a 250kg laser/IIR+GPS guided weapon with a range of 65km and CEP of 5.3-7.5m; SD10 and other weapons.

KLJ-7 Airborne Radar
The KLJ-7 is an X-band airborne fire-control radar (FCR) uses a mechanically-steered slotted array antenna. The KLJ-7 has multiple modes, both beyond-visual-range (BVR) and close-in air-to-air modes, ground surveillance modes and a robust anti-jamming capability. The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.

* Frequency : X-band
* A mechanically-steered slotted array antenna
* 14 Operational Modes
* Range more than 100 km
* Total targets tracked: 10 in TWS (Track-While-Scan) mode
* Reliability:
o MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure): 220 hours
o MTTR (Mean Time To Recovery): 0.5 hours
* Weight less than 120 kg
* Composition
o Antenna Unit
o Receiver Unit
o Transmitter Unit
o Processor Unit
o Power Supply Unit
o Auxiliary Transmitter Unit
JF-17 Thunder - Information Pool | Page 7

 

[abdulbarijan]

So JF 17 is made by pakistan ?? .
It would have bit better if you said that you outsourced your technology to china for R & D, Prototypes construction and all testings .


Ohhh .... Ok but, WHY THERE IS "BANNED" mentioned your Photo frame ?
Go First change the pic of you profile and put something suitable to your personality "". I always end up kicking this gentleman's butt because of your shit.



because
"Javaid Ahmed of PAF who is the "Chief Project director" of the JFT project" said it ....
.
@abdulbarijan
"In an age where normal day consumers sue the living $hit out of companies whose claims don't meet the performance of their product ..."
Company is not claiming anything wrong Its the CUSTOMER ITSELF CLAIMING WRONG. and some
patriotic idiots believe on them. and I never saw any example of a company suing customer for claiming higher performance of its products then actual. ................

-So I suppose your content with the company's claim of KLJ-7 V1 .. since by your own words "the company isn't claiming anything wrong" .. ??

Secondly, we the 'patriotic idiots' would like you to refer to what he (AM Javaid Ahmad, whom you accuse of lying by the way) said about the JFT program in the interview in question ( which you can read in the quoted post of @Manticore ...)

1. Development of the export version - Check
2. Development of Twin seater- Check
3. Main improvements including IFR, datalink etc. - Check
4. KLJ-7 not being replaced in Block II - Check
5. Chinese engine undergoing testing - Check

So he's practically spot on about everything which by all means he should be because he is a person of authority .. yet your here accusing the guy of lying because you can't stand the fact that the mighty IAF is starting to loose its large conventional advantage that it once held ... Lastly, you keep repeating the question of "what did Pakistan do in JFT" ... I answered that question of yours way back when we were debating -- or is it that you don't even read the evidence that your provided because it bursts your fanboy bubbles of what reality is ... Coming to your weird imagination ... about how "PAF is the customer & customer only" -- do mention a project where a "customer" does ALL of these things ..

1. Formally signs a JV deal
2. Formally funds half of the development, has inputs in the project and is formally entitled to 50% of the profits
3. Formally appears and does marketing for the product at hand (Farnbrough, Dubai, Izmir, Paris)
4. Formally deals with potential customers

 

[amardeep mishra]

if the claims made were over inflated etc etc. what would happen when it becomes part of the consideration set of an airforce ...which is usually followed up by showing interest, negotiations, testing, decision etc.

@abdulbarijan
My friend calculating detection range against a particular RCS isn't very difficult provided you're given with peak/average power and effective aperture of radar.and I simply can't believe that a slottedI planar array with LESSER PEAK POWER and LESSER EFFECTIVE APERTURE will have detection range similar to a bigger radar that has not only HIGHER PEAK POWER but also LARGER APERTURE.I'd have believed the figure of 130kms had it come from the designer

 

[abdulbarijan]

@abdulbarijan
My friend calculating detection range against a particular RCS isn't very difficult provided you're given with peak/average power and effective aperture of radar.and I simply can't believe that a slotted planar array with LESSER PEAK POWER and LESSER EFFECTIVE APERTURE will have detection range similar to a bigger radar that has not only HIGHER PEAK POWER but also LARGER APERTURE

You don't have to believe anything ... I'm just saying ... I can't believe that a company or a Rep would take a gun and start shooting down its product's chances for exports by over inflating figures ... figures whose legitimacy can be ripped asunder in the testing phase ...

The only in between/legitimate argument that can be assumed is that something was lost in the translation or in between the communication between the interviewer and the interviewee and that 130 Km for KLJ-7 could be the Max tracking range for airborne targets ... kinda like the reported claim of 150 km max tracking range for air to air targets when it comes to ELM-2032...

Whatever the case maybe, the company brochure puts a klj-7 @ 105 Km for 5m2, similarly you have people like yourself (Professionals in the field, who have worked with the PAF/PAC or enthusiasts that have links within the organization) say that the PAF is very satisfied by the radar (one of the stated reasons it was continued in the block II and not replaced) , and the performance is similar to the APG-68's (specifically in A2A) -- when it comes down to it ... I believe the KLJ-7 is indeed a 100+ Km class radar set for a standard fighter RCS as reported by 3 different sources ... you might think differently, which you have every right to...