JF-17 & Su-30 - Which will track & fire first?

[farhan_9909]

RCS is only Not A Factor but JF-17 has Inferior Radar with Limited Look Down/Shoot down capability Against
Russian Mammoth Bars Radar.

JF-17 Radar is already upgraded and AESA is planned for future.What if even the earlier blocks of JF-17 are integrated with AESA radar later?

 

[cerberus]

How to define more powerful AWACS?

EL/W-2090 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And you are sure PAF has no satelite support since Pakistan has joined China beidou GPS program plus definitely Chinese surveilance satelite support?

"Will" Happen is Different from "Is" Happening.
So I will Say US will Give it Full Satellite & Logistics in Case of War So will Russians to india

 

[GURU DUTT]

JF-17 Radar is already upgraded and AESA is planned for future.What if even the earlier blocks of JF-17 are integrated with AESA radar later?

guess what even MKIs are salted to get ASEA radar and AESA based EW suite and new improoved cockpit and engines and new gen internal jammers

 

[cerberus]

JF-17 Radar is already upgraded and AESA is planned for future.What if even the earlier blocks of JF-17 are integrated with AESA radar later?

Yes It Upgraded range for Look down/Shoot Down is Still Low Compared Against Russian PESA .

Even F-16 have better Lock Down Mode Range Compared to KLJ which 55+ Km That Makes It Very Potent in BVR Engagements

 

[Saurabh jindals]

If you bothered to look at the very post you quoted ... I've mentioned the source ... i.e Javaid Ahmed of PAF who is the "Chief Project director" of the JFT project who said its range is 130 Km for 5m2 Radar cross section...

I don't know about you ... but when a "chief project director" of ABC project, tells something about that ABC project ... it is taken as fact ...

You can take it as fact his interview given to some chinese magazine and go to sleep but for me he is the last person on earth whom I will believe even if I am in your place. Why there is no confirmation about his so called claim its already a long time since he made this announcement.
Secondly I asked you 130 5sq m is searching range or tracking Range ?
Also For you wrong interpretations abt su 30 , Let check them.
Vayusena

World Military Guide

Sukhoi Su-30MKI » Fighter Aircraft

 

[Nabil365]

Su-30 an air superiority
JF-17 a cheap plane that is yet to be proven fighter

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Su-30 an air superiority
JF-17 a cheap plane that is yet to be proven fighter

Lmao JF-17 has been used in WoT operations ...

It's a proven as Su-30 .. Which has not seen any combat.

As for cheap.. Sure .. Buts it's expensive for countries like Bangladesh .. Which can't even but 30-35 million dollar price "cheap" jets (JF-17).

 

[aakash_2410]

Su-30mki vs jf-17?! Lool there is literally no competition.

 

[The-king]

Haha which junk plane produced by pakistan cost 30million dollars.

@waz
He is continuously trolling and mocking.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Su-30 an air superiority
JF-17 a cheap plane that is yet to be proven fighter

Would it be better when a more sane government in Bangladesh buys JF17, like your successive government bought our old F6 aircraft? Would you then be telling us all how nice JF17 really is?

Su-30mki vs jf-17?! Lool there is literally no competition.

Two different aircraft in two different classes. The ones who are comparing are irrational.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Okay -- I replied to this message before but deleted it .. now that your commenting around on my profile .. let me just give you an appropriate response..

BVR Scenario (radar/missiles etc.)

-You claim that the radar on the JFT is a small radar .. well compared to the PESA onboard MKI it is .. But your wrong on the numbers ... radars aren't ballistic missiles in which you have a max range and you assume everything in this range is a goner ....

Coming back to KLJ-7 onboard JFT .. the basic KLJ-7 reported by Janes had a 75 Km range for 3m2 RCS. Then the claim by the manufacturer (NIRET) surfaced in a brochure which stated the range at 105 KM for 5m2 (almost the same range as the early APG-68) models .. Lastly in Kanwa an interview of the project director of JFT Mr.Javaid Ahmed quoted the range at 130 Km for 5m2 for KLJ-7 V2 which is onboard JFT now. For SU-30 MKI the usual claim is 140 KM for 5m2 which is a very good range and certainly is better than KLJ-7 V1/V2. Nobody would deny that nor even doubt it ..

Now as I stated, radar ranges aren't like ballistic missile ranges in which (well missile ranges also depend on the payload but lets assume the max ranges) you have a set range and everything in that range you can strike ... Radar more or less functions like a scope on top your regular firearm ...Looking through that scope you can easily see a deer from 1 odd KM ... But when your hunting rabbits you'll need to get closer to have a chance of finding it in your scope and targeting it accurately ...

In this case SU-30 MKI has a bigger radar (scope) but the JF-17 comparatively to the MKI is a very small target when it comes to RCS .. the same or even less then the F-16 C (quoted at 1.2m2 clean) ... The SU-30 MKI is a very big target .. infact the most of the Sukhoi series that were exported includes 27/30 etc. have massive RCS's quoted above atleast 10m2 clean. With the MKI you have canards in the front ... which the traditional sukhois didn't have and it increases the RCS even further.

Therefore, the advantage the SU-30 MKI gets with the PESA radar is more or less neutralized with its own huge RCS. The BVR engagement would happen at similar ranges and by the way I've already told you that JFT had kills over SU-27 .. you can now guess how that happened ...

Secondly, Your claim of how SU-30 MKI firing Brahmos shows how good its radar is, just shows how much knowledge you actually possess regarding the subject .... the ALCM's have independent guidance mechanisms like TERCOM, satellite guidance, INS, GPS etc. They are Stand off weapons to begin with, whose entire purpose is to not let the launching platform get in harms way ... These are not semi active radar homing missiles that would require the radar to illumine the target all the way through .. Therefore, they don't necessarily show how good your radar is .. a prime example being, the Mirage III Rose of PAF has been used time and again to test the RAAD cruise missile having a range of over 350 Km's -- does that mean that the Grifo onboard Mirage is superior to the PESA onboard MKI ?? Hell NO... infact Grifo is inferior even when compared to the basic KLJ-7, much less the improved version which is already in service.

Lastly, do consider the close proximity of India and Pakistan -- the fact that both airforces employ latest ground radars and have force multipliers in the sky in the shape of AWACS etc. that "advantage" of radar is negated .. and if you count in the EW capabilities of both the jets, the conversation becomes even more complex ...

Maneuverability ( tin box JFT etc.)

If JF-17 is a "tin box" .. then so is the SU-30 MKI with only 6-8% composite usage. In case of maneuverability composites will only help you in weight reduction, and that too only happens when you use them extensively. JF-17 does use a limited percentage of composites ... however when it comes to the "maneuverability" advantages the composites provide.. that is a little increase in the T/W ratio -- As of right now the empty weights of both LCA and JFT are in the same class 6.5 tonnes ... As far as a better T/W ratio is concerned .. you either don't know how to do your maths or your once again quoting figures without knowing them only to be embarrassed when actual figures are brought up ...
I suppose you got the idea from wikipedia which quoted LCA T/W as 1.07 + .. well if thats the case how come ... the same CAG report touts the aircraft as overweight and underpowered...
Coming to the wiki claims ... even by their claims of loaded weight and max thrust ... the T/W ratio turns out to be 0.96 more or less if calculated (20 thousand 200 pounds of force and 20 thousand 900+ pounds of weight) it is still nowhere near to the claimed 1.07. Now Here is another kicker, the actual Pound force figure of the GE f404 In20 onboard LCA tejas is stated to be 19,000 lbf by GE ITSELF ... When you calculate based on that figure, the T/W is reduced to 0.90..
The F404 Engine | Engines | Military | GE Aviation

While the claims of the RD-93 have ranged from the reported 86 KN up to 90+ KN .. to the point in the Paris airshow 2015 a PAF pilot claimed a 1+ T/W of the JFT ... and that claim isn't without any proof .. Check out the take off of the JFT .. It's a vertical take off ... then try to find a similar take off of any LCA tejas ... who supposedly has a better T/W.

4th Generation Stealth

Like I claimed there is no such thing as a stealth 4th generation aircraft. You might say there are some LO 4th gens which use RAMS and their designs to minimize the RCS and delay their detection. JFT itself being an example. The original stealth designs were around an in testing as far back as the WW-II . However, you can't call a LO 4th/4.5 gen jet a stealth aircraft. You just cant... with external loads and weapons their RCS is increased to a healthy 2-3m2 easily which modern AWACS and ground radars can detect from miles away... The concept of stealth was to minimize detection to a range in which even if detected the opponent wouldn't have any time to respond. That is why you have internal weapon bays for stealth fighters and their RCS is especially low..

Coming to your earlier claims of J-31 being a copy of F-35 -- The US said the same thing about J-20 being mirroring the F-22/35 .. but when you actually look at the difference in both the designs of J-20 and F-22 ... the difference is obvious ..

Lawmaker: Chinese J-31, J-20 'Mirror' American F-35, F-22 | Defense Tech

Similarly claims can definitely be made about how the J-31 looks like a F-35, but the J-31 is a twin engined fighter .. It does not employ the SVTOL technology .. as the F-35 does .. even the designs are different to an extent .. here is a quotation from the deputy general director & the head of the engineering of Migkoyan known as Artyem Mikoyan (do remember Migkoyan is the same company producing your migs fighter jets ) --- stating that

“It looks like a good machine, and although it obviously has some design solutions already tried on the U.S. fifth-generation fighters, it is not a copy but a well done indigenous design”

Russian Officials Reveal J-31 Engine and Describe Sales to China | Defense News: Aviation International News

By the way it is hilarious, that your still touting LCA as an indigenous aircraft when your pointing at the Chinese and saying they don't produce indigenous stuff ...

Bottom line is ... Your original point of JFT not being a threat to the IAF is bonkers .. It's actually a huge threat because now every time your trying to cross in to the airspace of Pakistan, your more likely to face a 4th generation aircraft which is generally on the same playing field as the aggressor aircrafts ... I've already given you a generic comparison of the M2k and Mig-29 with the JFT so I don't even need to say anything further on this ..

Your obsession with how LCA is indigenous, when you say Chinese equipment is not and you quote a report pointing the indigenous content at 35% is beyond funny ... then you say how JFT not being selected by Argentina means Kfir is better .. but yet LCA is not even able to replace the post WW-II mig-21 ... so Mig-21 being better then LCA logic doesn't work because LCA is Indian right ??? -- but sure you mention the ASR which you say even the F-16's failed which is funny on another level itself because that would mean that the requirements set for the MMRCA tender are the requirements set for LCA project ... then you resort back to how China is not taking the JFT, while I say this time and again on how an entire prototype is in China (PT-06) being tested with the domestic engine, being integrated with new weapons etc. However while making this point you forget the SU-30 that Russia took nearly two decades to induct after the project was underway ... You cite economic reasons for that ... yet can't accept the reasoning of 4-5 different projects underway for PLAAF/PLAN at the time ...

Bottom line is .. your obsessive ... and your arguments speak for themselves where everything Indian has to be superior then anything Pakistan or China field ... everything Indian will be more indigenous then anything China or Pakistan field ... and just to put in to perspective ... your LCA project is a good 5-7 years behind the JFT whose already gone through the integration process, already has FOC, already has conducted air raids, already has participated in exercises, already has an export order and already has an improved version in production ...

hi dear @abdulbarijan
What exactly do you call authentic?How exactly do you calculate range of a radar?Dont you think it is weird that the KLJ-7 radar poster (from some airshow,i guess(?)) that you posted above lacks any information on itz peak/average power or effective aperature.These are the two very important parameter that determine the range of radar. Last week i posted my analysis of ICBM's terminal velocity using python , While i dont work with radars anymore(i once did,although for very brief period),i can simulate their range performance against various RCS

 

[tarrar]

SU30 is more advance than JF17. JF17 is not a heavy weight fighter, its a light weight fighter & therefore no comparison should be made between the two. The only way for PAF to tackle the SU30MKI is to go for SU35 & go neck to neck with India to tackle the threat of SU30MKI. I am sure PAF is aware of all this & INSHAALLAH will go for SU35 in coming future as SU35 will increase the air defence of Pakistan.

If people are thinking J31 & J20 then they are wrong as both the aircraft's are not ready & will go under several changes before officially getting inducted in PLAAF & then PAF will test the ability of the aircraft as Chinese will allow them do so, then the decision will be taken if to buy them or not. So we are looking at approx 10 to 15 years time & honestly speaking Pakistan should wait for that long. If Russia has truly offered them SU35 ,then Pakistan should go for them asap as they are far superior & heavy weight fighter & exactly what Pakistan needs.

 

[SQ8]

@abdulbarijan
When dealing with many Indian fanboys in the future that there are some wonderful exceptions whose knowledge will speak for itself and it is only those that deserve your time and respect., but please remember that there are many for which to trust their intellect and intellectual honesty vis-a-vis anything that concerns India is to trust a Paedophile Rapist with a pretty 5 year old girl.

If I appreciate your wonderful efforts in the article, but if you feel that the user has no other value than needless parroting arguments as this one is, please report them.

 

[abdulbarijan]

You can take it as fact his interview given to some chinese magazine and go to sleep but for me he is the last person on earth whom I will believe even if I am in your place. Why there is no confirmation about his so called claim its already a long time since he made this announcement.
Secondly I asked you 130 5sq m is searching range or tracking Range ?
Also For you wrong interpretations abt su 30 , Let check them.
Vayusena
View attachment 274427

World Military Guide
View attachment 274428

Sukhoi Su-30MKI » Fighter Aircraft
View attachment 274429

The claim still stands because your "links" are basically quoting the overall effective range of the radar ... the range for a standard fighter size have been presented from 3-4 different sources ... and you haven't presented any source countering that claim ... therefore it still stands ...

hi dear @abdulbarijan
What exactly do you call authentic?How exactly do you calculate range of a radar?Dont you think it is weird that the KLJ-7 radar poster (from some airshow,i guess(?)) that you posted above lacks any information on itz peak/average power or effective aperature.These are the two very important parameter that determine the range of radar. Last week i posted my analysis of ICBM's terminal velocity using python , While i dont work with radars anymore(i once did,although for very brief period),i can simulate their range performance against various RCS

Counter question ... what makes you think an important system such as the radar of a fighter jet ... which is slated for exports, will have false claims on it marketing material .. In an age where normal day consumers sue the living $hit out of companies whose claims don't meet the performance of their product ...

you would seriously have us assume because of "lack of information" that a company would go out and state inflated figures of its product, and that too of a high involvement product which usually involves state to state negotiations and that the interested party will test before purchasing....

 

[kṣamā]

but please remember that there are many for which to trust their intellect and intellectual honesty vis-a-vis anything that concerns India is to trust a Paedophile Rapist with a pretty 5 year old girl.

Post Reported.
@waz Now donn count me infractions and negative rating when I call Pakistanis as "Inbred Islamic Terrorists" . The above is a senior moderator.