JF-17 & Su-30 - Which will track & fire first?

[Bilal Khan 777]

Hmm... Just a small argument. Radar range will mean next to nothing when the other side is sporting an EW Capable aircraft. I am sure JF 17 will have some EW capabilities but so dose MKI. The difference being, JFT being a single engine small medium fighter will have lesser powered EW pods. Where as being a mamoth of the sky MKI is huge and has its disadvantages, but it has its plus points too. Like bigger more powerful engines making a truck load of power driving massive EW pods and built in EWs. More over with the bigger Radar it can use its massive power output to "Burn through" enemy EW.

Though it might not be ground breaking but definitely an edge. Also this 1 vs another is worthless bcoz they are not meant to go head on without their pack. And did we just discount SAM?

Reasonable argument. Single single fighters cannot sport anything beyond self protection jammers. larger twin engine aircraft such as F15, Su30 have a lot of power available for mini - SOJ capability. The noise or barrage jamming is easily overcome these days with diversity and stagger techniques. Also such high power jamming on tactical platform gives away its position and also invite home on jam.

Conflict in the Sub-Continent will continue to have covert posture, but with the introduction of AW&C on both sides, the doctrines are shifting to Stand Off Attack, where both sides will opt to fire from as far away from possible, and fire first where possible.

 

[The-king]

Hmm... Just a small argument. Radar range will mean next to nothing when the other side is sporting an EW Capable aircraft. I am sure JF 17 will have some EW capabilities but so dose MKI. The difference being, JFT being a single engine small medium fighter will have lesser powered EW pods. Where as being a mamoth of the sky MKI is huge and has its disadvantages, but it has its plus points too. Like bigger more powerful engines making a truck load of power driving massive EW pods and built in EWs. More over with the bigger Radar it can use its massive power output to "Burn through" enemy EW.

Though it might not be ground breaking but definitely an edge. Also this 1 vs another is worthless bcoz they are not meant to go head on without their pack. And did we just discount SAM?

Can you provide some technical sources for your claims, how power full EW pods Su-30 can carry with external sources and pls do mention of faulty fly by wire system and powerful engines problems su-30 facing.
Su-30MKI fly by wire system is a big mess nearly all the crashes happens because of faulty maintenance, it requires lot of time and parts to maintain it even after few hours of flying.

India’s New Fighters Have Serious Engine Problems
The SU-30MKIs constantly break down
by THOMAS NEWDICK
In the past decade, the Indian Air Force has bought hundreds of Su-30MKI fighter jets from Russia. Some of Moscow’s most advanced export fighters, the warplanes should have helped New Delhi strengthen its military.

But it turns out, the twin-engine jets have failure-prone motors. Their AL-31FP engines break down with alarming frequency.

In March, Indian defense minister Manohar Parrikar revealed the propulsion problems.

There have been no fewer than 69 investigations involving engine failures since 2012, according to Parrikar. Between January 2013 and December 2014 alone, the Indian Air Force recorded 35 technical problems with the turbofans.

A shortfall in India’s Sukhoi fleet is a big deal. Especially at a time when India’s fighter squadrons are shrinking, and plans to induct the French Rafale fighter have stalled.

The Su-30MKI remains the pride of the Indian Air Force. Russia’s Irkut Corporation initially supplied the jets, and today Hindustan Aeronautics Limited produces them under license.

It was on New Delhi’s behest that Russia revamped the Cold War-era Su-27 into this modern “superfighter,” with thrust-vectoring engines, canard foreplanes, a digital fly-by-wire flight control system, electronically scanned radar and air-to-ground weapons.

India had to wait until 2002 before it started to receive the Su-30MKI in the form it had originally requested. The Air Force is set to receive 272 Su-30MKIs.

India also bought 18 austere Su-30K fighters without the multi-role capabilities or thrust-vectoring engines.

Of the Su-30MKIs, Russia has delivered 50. HAL is producing the rest at its Nasik facility, where aircraft continue to roll off the line. With around 15 to 20 aircraft handed over every year, the current orders are set to finish around 2019 or 2020.

So what exactly is wrong with the engines? We have a pretty good idea.

Parrikar attributed the failures to faulty bearings that contaminated the plane’s oil supply. It seems that metal fatigue led to tiny pieces of metal shearing off the friction-reducing bearings, which then entered the oil system.

This accounted for 33 of 69 engine failures.

Another 11 failures were the result of engine vibrations, while eight more arose from a lack of pressure in that same lubricating oil. New Delhi has not revealed the cause for the remaining 17 incidents.

The Air Force responded by taking the issue up with NPO Saturn, the Russian manufacturer. According to Parrikar, the company has come up with nine different modifications to help solve the problems.

India has already incorporated these “fixes” into 25 engines built at its plant in Koraput. In the future, the engines should benefit from an improved lubrication system, superior-quality oil and bearings that are a better fit.

However, a more general worry for the Air Force is the poor serviceability of the Su-30MKI fleet — meaning the number of aircraft actually available for operations on a daily basis.

Based on figures given by Parrikar, only 110 Su-30MKIs are “operationally available.” From a total of more than 200 aircraft that Irkut and HAL had delivered by February 2015, that means 56 percent are ready at any given time.

India’s Su-30MKI fleet has suffered five crashes since 2009.

To be sure, it’s not a great record, but it’s also not notably bad — especially when compared with the attrition rates of the Indian Air Force’s older fighters. It’s unclear what role, if any, the engine problems played in these accidents.

What’s perhaps more significant is the fact that engine deficiencies have bugged the Flanker from the start.

“The initial batch of 18 Su-30Ks and 10 Su-30MKIs were grounded as a result of engine issues, that were subsequently put down to design problems,” Indian defense blogger Shiv Aroor wrote.
At the end of last year, the Air Force’s fighter strength dipped to just 25 squadrons — its lowest in recent history. India has an officially sanctioned requirement for 42 fighter squadrons, and maintained 32 until recently.

As New Delhi withdraws its older MiG-21s and MiG-27s from service, the total number could fall to just 11 squadrons by 2024.

Casting an eye toward Pakistan and China, a parliamentary committee in New Delhi has argued that 45 fighter squadrons are the minimum India needs to cope with the demands of a “two-front collusive threat.”

Either way, that means India needs a lot of Su-30MKIs — and the jets have to work.

India wouldn’t have to worry as much about its Su-30MKI fleet if it managed to import fighters from elsewhere. For years, New Delhi has unsuccessfully tried to nail down a program to buy 126 Rafale fighters from France.

Of these, Dassault Aviation would supply 18, while HAL would build the remainder. But despite announcements from both the French manufacturer and India, the deal is nowhere close to turning into reality.

As far as Moscow is concerned, the protracted Rafale deal has presented Russia with an opportunity to try and elbow the French out of the way, and sell yet more Su-30MKIs to India.
Indian officials have insisted that the Rafale is the only solution to its near-term fighter needs. But that changed at the turn of the year when Parrikar told reporters that an additional Su-30 buy could provide a solution — if negotiations with Paris were to terminally collapse.

The statement came as a surprise to the Air Force, which has long been wed to the Rafale, which it presents as the tailor-made solution to its fighter needs. On this occasion, the Air Force countered that the Su-30MKI and Rafale programs were indivisible, and fulfilled two different requirements.

But if the Sukhoi’s engine problems aren’t fixed soon, then this option might become less attractive. Perhaps as an insurance policy, Russia is now pushing India to buy its Su-35 — a more advanced, single-seat fighter based on the same Flanker airframe.

Regardless of what happens, the Russian-designed jet will have a place in the inventory for some time to come, despite its problems. There simply are lots of Su-30MKIs on order. India is also keen to pursue an upgrade for the jet, known as the Super 30.

This will add a new computer system and upgraded mission avionics, including an advanced active electronically-scanned array radar. Other changes will include revised countermeasure systems and “stealth” coatings to reduce radar signature.

New weapons will include the indigenous Astra air-to-air missile.

The 80-kilometer-range Astra was first successfully flight-tested from a Su-30MKI in May last year and destroyed a target drone this month. It was a good bit of PR for the Indian jet at a time when it needed it the most.
While the Astra will eventually arm most Indian fighters, one other missile will likely remain the sole preserve of the Su-30MKI. The Sukhoi is currently the only Indian Air Force fighter able to lift the heavyweight Brahmos-A, an Indo-Russian supersonic cruise missile.

But let’s back up for a second. Why did Parrikar mention the Su-30MKI as a possible replacement for the Rafale if the negotiations collapse? He knows the Russian fighters have loads of problems — as does everyone else. So that doesn’t make any sense.

Unless … you want to scare India’s politicians enough to finally close the deal on the Rafale.

India’s New Fighters Have Serious Engine Problems — War Is Boring — Medium

 

[cerberus]

herefore, the advantage the SU-30 MKI gets with the PESA radar is more or less neutralized with its own huge RCS. The BVR engagement would happen at similar ranges and by the way I've already told you that JFT had kills over SU-27 .. you can now guess how that happened ...

Very Wrong assumption JFT Can detect MKI Before But It Only Happens when Fighter are Moving Toward Each other with Same Height and in constant speed Which Impossible in Combat scenario s

The manufacturer claim for the basic KLJ-7 is 105 Km for 5m2, For KLJ-7 V2, the claim is 130 Km for 5m2 ..

Yes, KLJ-7 airborne pulse Doppler radar with maximum detection range of 130 km, TWS mode can simultaneously track 10 targets and simultaneously

N011M Bars has 400Km search range, 200km track range, 60km rear tracking. Also in Air-Air mode it can do a Raid assesment and NTCR.

Each Radar Have two Modes Look Up and Look Down/shoot down Mode

Look down Mode

Militaries require performance of airborne intercept radar under all aspects, including downwards. By using techniques to effectively remove clutter, human operators and computers can focus on targets of interest. This allows the radar system to "look down", and that eliminates the zone of weakness. Military air combat vehicles that lack this capability are blind to attack from below and along the line of the horizon

Once the radar can "look down", it is subsequently desirable to "shoot down". Various weapons systems (including guns and missiles) are then employed against designated radar targets, either relying on the aircraft's radar employing the "look down" capability (as in semi-active radar homing) or the weapon's own active radar to resolve the indicated target.


In Look Down/shoot down Mode KLJ has 40Km detection against any threat
so that decreases its Ability to Fire BVR before MKI in A2A

The MKI has OLS-30 which is a combined IRST/LR device using a cooled, broad waveband sensor.Range 90km in pursuit, 40km head-on also give it Distinctive Edge Even before Switch on Its Radar

The Bars radar has Jet Engine Modulation (JEM) technology, allowing for a target to be identified at range by simply analyzing the radar returns from the target's engine compressor face. The Jf-17 engine face is currently shielded somewhat thanks to the DSI inlets, but if the inlet trunks are not RAM coated then radar returns will still be able to propagate back and forth through them. Simply hiding a compressor face is not enough. There is also the passive engagement option for the MKI

The J-17 also currently suffers from having a highly reflective steerable planar array radar set. This is a major source of radar reflectivity and will compund the RCS of the airframe. In the MKI, the passive phased array set is angled downwards slightly, helping to reduce this effect on the FLANKER's RCS.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Very Wrong assumption JFT Can detect MKI Before But It Only Happens when Fighter are Moving Toward Each other with Same Height and in constant speed Which Impossible in Combat scenario s


Yes, KLJ-7 airborne pulse Doppler radar with maximum detection range of 130 km, TWS mode can simultaneously track 10 targets and simultaneously

N011M Bars has 400Km search range, 200km track range, 60km rear tracking. Also in Air-Air mode it can do a Raid assesment and NTCR.

Each Radar Have to Modes Look Up and Look Down/shoot down Mode

Look down Mode

Militaries require performance of airborne intercept radar under all aspects, including downwards. By using techniques to effectively remove clutter, human operators and computers can focus on targets of interest. This allows the radar system to "look down", and that eliminates the zone of weakness. Military air combat vehicles that lack this capability are blind to attack from below and along the line of the horizon

Once the radar can "look down", it is subsequently desirable to "shoot down". Various weapons systems (including guns and missiles) are then employed against designated radar targets, either relying on the aircraft's radar employing the "look down" capability (as in semi-active radar homing) or the weapon's own active radar to resolve the indicated target.


In Look Down/shoot down Mode KLJ has 40-50 Km detection against any threat
so that decreases its Ability to Fire BVR before MKI in A2A

The MKI has OLS-30 which is a combined IRST/LR device using a cooled, broad waveband sensor.Range 90km in pursuit, 40km head-on also give it Distinctive Edge

Comparing JF17 to Su30 is hilarious. Let me remind you, what has not been done 200 times before.

FC-1 Super Seven, now JF17 Thunder, was designed to replace the following aircraft:

1) F6 (Mig - 19)
2) F7 (Mig 21)
3) A5
4) Mirage III/V PA2/PA3

However, it does not duplicate the deep strike capability of Mirage, also that is no more needed due to stand-off weapons.

To engage Su-30, Pakistan is likely to use its Block 52 aircraft for Air Superiority role, or look for a similar aircraft on the market.

These comparisons of single engine aircraft with the beast that is Su-30 series is sad.

 

[Beast]

Comparing JF17 to Su30 is hilarious. Let me remind you, what has not been done 200 times before.

FC-1 Super Seven, now JF17 Thunder, was designed to replace the following aircraft:

1) F6 (Mig - 19)
2) F7 (Mig 21)
3) A5
4) Mirage III/V PA2/PA3

However, it does not duplicate the deep strike capability of Mirage, also that is no more needed due to stand-off weapons.

To engage Su-30, Pakistan is likely to use its Block 52 aircraft for Air Superiority role, or look for a similar aircraft on the market.

These comparisons of single engine aircraft with the beast that is Su-30 series is sad.

Let me give you a photo of a estimation Su-30 compare to a JF-17 in the air

You can see the RCS of JF-17 will appear quite small on radar compare to Su-30. I will not say its a hopeless case. Remember, F-16 is bigger than JF-17 and Gripen.

 

[cerberus]

You can see the RCS of JF-17 will appear quite small on radar compare to Su-30. I will not say its a hopeless case. Remember, F-16 is bigger than JF-17 and Gripen.

RCS is only Not A Factor but JF-17 has Inferior Radar with Limited Look Down/Shoot down capability Against
Russian Mammoth Bars Radar.

 

[Beast]

RCS is only Not A Factor but JF-17 has Inferior Radar with Limited Look Down/Shoot down capability Against
Russian Mammoth Bars Radar.

RCS can be a factor. During IAF Mig-21 Bison vs F-15 of a red flag few years ago, the American F-15 pilot did claim small RCS is a factor in making Mig-21 Bison a threat as his radar spotted it quite late than he shall have expected.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Maybe something like this would give everyone an idea on what you are saying?

 

[cerberus]

RCS can be a factor. During IAF Mig-21 Bison vs F-15 of a red flag few years ago, the American F-15 pilot did claim small RCS is a factor in making Mig-21 Bison a threat as his radar spotted it quite late than he shall have expected.

We are Talking Combat Scenario here Not Exercises both have different Objectives.and goals

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

RCS is only Not A Factor but JF-17 has Inferior Radar with Limited Look Down/Shoot down capability Against
Russian Mammoth Bars Radar.

If you wrongly compare the KLJ7 with Su30, everything will look inferior. It is an inferior approach and discussion.

 

[Beast]

We are Talking Combat Scenario here Not Exercises both have different Objectives.and goals

You are talkin nonsense. You meant in real scenario, it will defied physics?

Maybe something like this would give everyone an idea on what you are saying?

The picture is not in ratio. J-10 is not that big compare to Su-30 and JF-17 is also not that big.

 

[cerberus]

You are talkin nonsense. You meant in real scenario, it will defied physics?

What is Physics here ? you are Talking About

Let Give you an Example of F-15 & Mig-29
F-15 has Mammoth RCS of 25 m2 against Mig-29 which Has RCS of 5m2 .Just Match there Record Against Each other in Real Combat Scenarios


USAF F-15Cs shot down four Yugoslav MiG-29s using AIM-120 missiles during NATO's 1999 intervention in Kosovo

According to the USAF, its F-15Cs had 34 confirmed kills of Iraqi aircraft during the 1991 Gulf War, most of them by missile fire: five MiG-29 "Fulcrums", two MiG-25 "Foxbats", eight MiG-23 "Floggers", two MiG-21 "Fishbeds", two Su-25 "Frogfoots", four Su-22 "Fitters", one Su-7, six Mirage F1s, one Il-76 cargo plane, one Pilatus PC-9 trainer, and two Mi-8 helicopters

Like Said Combat Scenarios Are Some What Different From Excerices

 

[Beast]

What is Physics here ? you are Talking About

Let Give you an Example of F-15 & Mig-29
F-15 has Mammoth RCS of 25 m2 against Mig-29 which Has RCS of 5m2 .Just Match there Record Against Each other


USAF F-15Cs shot down four Yugoslav MiG-29s using AIM-120 missiles during NATO's 1999 intervention in Kosovo

According to the USAF, its F-15Cs had 34 confirmed kills of Iraqi aircraft during the 1991 Gulf War, most of them by missile fire: five MiG-29 "Fulcrums", two MiG-25 "Foxbats", eight MiG-23 "Floggers", two MiG-21 "Fishbeds", two Su-25 "Frogfoots", four Su-22 "Fitters", one Su-7, six Mirage F1s, one Il-76 cargo plane, one Pilatus PC-9 trainer, and two Mi-8 helicopters

Like Said Combat Scenarios Are Some What Different From Excerices

Becos, USAF has AWACS do all the monitoring plus Serbian radar are all jammed and no AWACS support. The USAF dont even need its own fighter radar on and can get the job done.

If JF-17 is supported by AWACS, it will negate its own lesser powerfu radar disadvantage compare to a Su-30 w/o AWACS support.

 

[cerberus]

If JF-17 is supported by AWACS, it will negate its own lesser powerful radar disadvantage compare to a Su-30 w/o AWACS support.

In How Extent PAF will Extend Its Few Awacs Support With its Hundred of Fighters Fleet.Plus IAF Will use More Powerful Awacs in Larger Quantity with Satellite Support Surveillance. MKI Itself is termed "Mini AWACS" .In Every Scenario the PAF have Limited Options.

 

[Beast]

In How Extent PAF will Extend Its Few Awacs Support With its Hundred of Fighters Fleet.Plus IAF Will use More Powerful Awacs in Larger Quantity with Satellite Support Surveillance. MKI Itself is termed "Mini AWACS" .In Every Scenario the PAF have Limited Options.

How to define more powerful AWACS? And you are sure PAF has no satelite support since Pakistan has joined China beidou GPS program plus definitely Chinese surveilance satelite support? MKI as AWACS is limited. Its radar can never match the sheer size of AWACS.