JF-17 has edge over LCA: Pak officials

[Contrarian]

US policy kicks in when they have to export technology. Its obvious your claim of 'only testing' is false as there is no export of technology there. Anyway, I proved it otherwise with a reference also.

Nope, the policy is present in case of helping in validating and refining the test benchmarks as well. Not just for export of technology.

Like i said, i had not known about involving EADS for consultancy as well. Initially it was planned that they would be hired only for the testing and evaluation phase and minor corrections as there practically cannot be major structural changes.

Foreign assistance is not a bad thing. indians should have asked for it way before, and maybe LCA project would have been in a better shape now. It does however, signal that there is a problem that they can't solve themselves right now.

Maybe, maybe not. I cant give a definitive answer on that. The director of ADA has said that the foreign company was being hired for evaluation and minor refinement process only. For practical reasons, major changes are not possible as it would only lead to more delay.

I never said its a bad thing...but the point is that this thread is LCA vs JF-17 as of now.

LCA and JF-17 cannot be compared for one reason. JF-17 is soon going to be operational and LCA is not. When LCA does enter operational service, that will be the day to start comparing.

To start with, what you 'design' is not necessarily what you get. Tejas were also design to fly around 1995. They were also 'designed' to be light weight (they are currently overweight by a massive 1.5 tons). They were designed to have more G's,

They were designed to have more AoA.

AoA is short by only by 2 degrees of what was wanted.

You didn't read my post, did you? It clearly says "there is no further room for improvement" and it will carry " a reduced weapons load" and it CANNOT add to its maneuverability - angle of attack - unless a new engine is fitted and there is NO CHANCE of that happening in the first batch.

The engineers working on the project and the project director have said that AoA of one degre short of what is required can be achieved, beyond that would require changes. Currently it is two degrees short.

Whether you like it or not, the first batch of LCAs are nothing more than face-saving, testing and pilot training...but they are far from being combat worthy.

I dont think its about face saving. An immense amount of money and research has gone in the LCA project. Over 500 labs are working on the LCA project all over the country. The technologies developed for the LCA project have already started giving spin-offs. It is but obvious, that the LCA would get built in certain numbers so that the users use the product in actual field conditions and evaluate it. The suggestions for changes, improvements and a lot of stuff would get passed on back to ADA so that the next phase or the next plane can rectify these problems. However If it turns out adequate for its needs, then all the better.

Its not face saving. I hope you understood what im trying to convey here.

 

[Munir]

It is a shame that some posters have no clue what they write ot just copy paste fromhighly questionable and wrong posts from other forums...

>>>Now LCA vs JF-17
Lca- designed and being developed in India
JF-17-designed and being developed in china

Wrong. JF17 is partly Pakistani. If Mushaf ali Mir decided to decouple the engine and use certain improvements (plug and play plane) then how come it is not Pakistani? How come we are one year testflying? How come western parts are integrated? I bet China is not allowed to do it. So even in the worse case... JF17 is managed by PAF (read AFM about the first plane being designed by an airforce!) is improved by PAF and will be exported by PAF. China is a major suplier of manpower and technology but they were never going to buy the plane.... Isn't that waht ou guys keep posting?


Now, Abou LCA being Indian. Well, it is the plane that took decades and bollions but even with major foreign assistance not going to be more then a test case.


>>>Avionics(LCA)- most are local now will reach close to 90% when production begins.
Avionics(JF-17)- Mix of western and Chines (non of them is pakistani)

Indian firms getting western or Russian parts and co-producing some doesn't mean it is Indian. It is like Tata doing buss now with Saab concerning Gripen. You might say then that Gripen is Indian... Hardly. It is purely to get market penetration and options to buy votes.


>>>Radar(LCA)- rest of the radar coupled with Israeli phase array antenna
Radar(JF-17)- chines or Italian

So? Like so many things you need Israeli assistance. But instead of Israeli engineers putting their engine in "your" LCA it is our engineers putting western engine in our plane...


>>>Engine(LCA)- Kaveri (technical assistance of France)
Engine(JF-17)- Russian or Chines(developed with Russian assistance)
F.C.S(LCA)-Fly-By-Wire, Quadriplex from first flight developed by A.D.A.
F.C.S(JF-17)-Fly-By-Wire but for only ruder till now developed by china.


Kaveri is decoupled from LCA. The first 7 squadrons will get western engine... Here goed Kaveri. Even after Russian help, Israeli help, US help, French help... It is not what I say but your own ACM.

>>>Air Frame(LCA)- 45% composite developed in India for better speed, low maintenance, long life(low fatigue), better RCS and hi ‘g’ performance.
Air Frame(JF-17)- Its has a mig-21 class aluminium air frame which will have Vice -Versa of above features.

Just checked composites... It is not 45%. And composites does not make you more steatlhy. It will make your maintenance much more complex. It will be replaced more often. And it costs a lot more. So why going for those extra's if you can do it without or add it later?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

BR products are brain washed to believe that IAF will be the front line fighter in case of Alien invasion.

SU-30MKI..... please tell me name of any other aircraft that tops SU-30MKI that is native to south asia. Now don't just stubbornly say I was comparing it to F-22 or F-35.

how many top notch AF do you have in SA? our FC-20 will be just as capable as your MKIes. our upgraded F-16s with ERIEYE and AMRAAM will be enough to keep MKI at bays.

India bought SU-30s from Russia and the MKI's the custom version and the "MOST ADVANCED" variant of SU-30's. Please check any source on that.

ever heard of SU-30MKM ??? Su-30 MK3?? the world is not only limited to your brain capacity.

Oh it'll be fine
and oh gosh, Lockheed martin's offering us New F-16 variants while you guys still get the refurbished A&B.

that just reflects your superior complexion and ignorance. our upgraded F-16s MLU M3 are meant to be a technical match to your Mig-29 and Mirage-2000 "upgraded" but since we have superior pilots they will be well capable to wipe out immature MKI pilot away!
we will have other option available to match IAF new MRCA. hope you guys fall for American trap.

 

[mean_bird]

Hit that search button and check for the proof ^^

Engine(LCA)- Kaveri (technical assistance of France)
Engine(JF-17)- Russian or Chines(developed with Russian assistance)
F.C.S(LCA)-Fly-By-Wire, Quadriplex from first flight developed by A.D.A.
F.C.S(JF-17)-Fly-By-Wire but for only ruder till now developed by china.

Air Frame(LCA)- 45% composite developed in India for better speed, low maintenance, long life(low fatigue), better RCS and hi ‘g’ performance.

GTRE_GTX-35VS_Kaveri

Klimov_RD-93

Welcome fanboy!
Glad to know you know how to copy-paste.

Can you ask one of those bharat ratsh*ts, how many kaveri are currently powering the LCA?? Its not even considered for the next batch (thats 3-5 years away), and they are looking for a western engine.

Currently, Kaveri is providing all its thrust vectoring on a paper.

JF-17 was dual fbw only for prototypes not for production.

And we all know the high g's LCA can pull. Currently, the K-8 trainer can do better than that.

Nope, the policy is present in case of helping in validating and refining the test benchmarks as well. Not just for export of technology.

Like i said, i had not known about involving EADS for consultancy as well. Initially it was planned that they would be hired only for the testing and evaluation phase and minor corrections as there practically cannot be major structural changes.

Maybe, maybe not. I cant give a definitive answer on that. The director of ADA has said that the foreign company was being hired for evaluation and minor refinement process only. For practical reasons, major changes are not possible as it would only lead to more delay.

They were also asking the US companies for the same help they are asking European companies, that's why. Also US was not hesitant to transfer the technology to India. It was the companies who were saying that the rework would be so much that it would need their permission.
The single major headache for the LCA is that its overweight and that too by 1.5 tons...that's no small amount and the Indian engineers have no solution for it.

LCA and JF-17 cannot be compared for one reason. JF-17 is soon going to be operational and LCA is not. When LCA does enter operational service, that will be the day to start comparing.

Try explaining that to your fellow forumers. Apparently, the first batch of LCA has been ordered so we can assume they will be flying sometime. Atleast, for this batch the configuration won't be changing so we can discuss that.

AoA is short by only by 2 degrees of what was wanted.


The engineers working on the project and the project director have said that AoA of one degre short of what is required can be achieved, beyond that would require changes. Currently it is two degrees short.

Please provide a prove for that. The news I posted clearly mentions the current AoA to be 17° while the minimum requirement to be 21°

I dont think its about face saving. An immense amount of money and research has gone in the LCA project. Over 500 labs are working on the LCA project all over the country. The technologies developed for the LCA project have already started giving spin-offs. It is but obvious, that the LCA would get built in certain numbers so that the users use the product in actual field conditions and evaluate it. The suggestions for changes, improvements and a lot of stuff would get passed on back to ADA so that the next phase or the next plane can rectify these problems. However If it turns out adequate for its needs, then all the better.

Its not face saving. I hope you understood what im trying to convey here.

You don't need more than 4-5 prototypes to evaluate an aircraft and its ability. You certainly do not make a whole sqdrn in your Airforce just for testing.

They are just buying it so they can atleast lay off the criticism. Now they can say, the aircraft is complete and delivered and now we are working on an upgrade, etc. It saves face because in reality the second batch (if and when it makes it) would actually be the first batch worthy of air combat. But if they delay it and wait till it is worthy of combat, that would mean a total of over 3 decade of design and development...and would raise many questions, criticism and ridicule.

The first batch will also serve as a trainer jet since atleast it can get off the ground and do limited maneuvers. The pilots will also get used to the cockpit and most probably it would be comparable if not better than IAF's existing trainers.

It will certainly boost HAL's confidence and keep the morale high and provide them some cash.

 

[Munir]

Indian history of Marut or LCA isn't something exrtemely positrive. The size of Indian economy would make India as good as China but in reality China has copid projects and started own designs. Without much assistance and under boycot from western powers. India on the other hand has all the assets but still does not end with a success. Arjun is gone. LCA is nice but we would have expected more. Whether India learned from it? They added US engine. Kaveri failed. They added Israeli avionics. Their own products are not accepted. They had added composites. It was bought from a western firm. They added weapons. Sofar only Russian. Ok, they wrote their own FBW... So in the end thy have less then a mirage 2000H and it costed a fortune. Pak gets a decent plane with almost unrelistic low costs...

 

[Myth_buster_1]

^ not to forget, Marut was designed by a german scientist and pretty much another Gnat.

 

[zeus]

US policy kicks in when they have to export technology. Its obvious your claim of 'only testing' is false as there is no export of technology there. Anyway, I proved it otherwise with a reference also.

Foreign assistance is not a bad thing. indians should have asked for it way before, and maybe LCA project would have been in a better shape now. It does however, signal that there is a problem that they can't solve themselves right now. I never said its a bad thing...but the point is that this thread is LCA vs JF-17 as of now.





I mean to say which parts of the plane exactly are you putting the composites in? You use the CC is a heavy part, that is either internal or covers less area or in the skin that is lighter but covers more area, or at certain joints. AFAIK, most of the composites are used in the skeleton of the wing that was designed in Italy. If you are using most of the CCs in the rear fuselage, it isn't exactly helping in reducing the RCS. We are talking about radar wave reflection here....whats so difficult to understand?



To start with, what you 'design' is not necessarily what you get. Tejas were also design to fly around 1995. They were also 'designed' to be light weight (they are currently overweight by a massive 1.5 tons). They were designed to have more G's, They were designed to have more AoA.

You didn't read my post, did you? It clearly says "there is no further room for improvement" and it will carry " a reduced weapons load" and it CANNOT add to its maneuverability - angle of attack - unless a new engine is fitted and there is NO CHANCE of that happening in the first batch.

Do me a favor...please next time you meet that Tejas test pilot...ask him why India isn't ordering any Tejas and preferring to fly the Mig-21s instead.

Bottom line is, LCA will not pull 9g's unless and until it gets a better engine and/or it reduces the excess 1.5 ton overweight....and thats assuming the airframe has no flaws and can manage it.

Whether you like it or not, the first batch of LCAs are nothing more than face-saving, testing and pilot training...but they are far from being combat worthy.

Tejas has already achieved 22AOA and donot worry IAF has already ordered 40 Tejas in MK-1 ,you show me one creditable link which says Tejas will not pull more then 6Gs ?? coming to JF-17 even first batch of 50 JF-17 will have Chinese radar and Avionics and only Batch two or should i say MK-II aircrafts will have French/Italian radar and western avionics so even first batch of JF-17 is just facing saving measure to be used for Training and Testing purpose before JF-17 MK-II takes flight incorporating Western Avionics

 

[zeus]

^ not to forget, Marut was designed by a german scientist and pretty much another Gnat.

Really ??

Specifications (Gnat F.1)

* Crew: 1
* Length: 28 ft 8 in (8.74 m)
* Wingspan: 22 ft 1 in (6.73 m)
* Height: 8 ft 1 in (2.46 m)
* Wing area: 136.6 ft² (12.69 m²)
* Empty weight: 4,800 lb (2,175 kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 9,040 lb (4,100 kg)
* Powerplant: 1× Bristol-Siddeley Orpheus 701-01 turbojet, 4,705 lbf (20.9 kN)


(Marut Mk.1)

General characteristics

* Crew: 1
* Length: 15.87 m (52 ft 1 in)
* Wingspan: 9.00 m (29 ft 6 in)
* Height: 3.60 m (11 ft 10 in)
* Wing area: 28 m² (300 ft²)
* Empty weight: 6,195 kg (13,660 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 10,908 kg (24,048 lb)
* Powerplant: 2× Bristol-Siddeley Orpheus Mk 703 turbojet, 21.6 kN (4,850 lbf) each

Performance

* Maximum speed: 1,128 km/h (609 kn, 701 mph)
* Range: 800 km (430 NM, 500 mi)
* Service ceiling: 13,750 m (45,100 ft)

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Really ??

Specifications (Gnat F.1)

* Crew: 1
* Length: 28 ft 8 in (8.74 m)
* Wingspan: 22 ft 1 in (6.73 m)
* Height: 8 ft 1 in (2.46 m)
* Wing area: 136.6 ft² (12.69 m²)
* Empty weight: 4,800 lb (2,175 kg)
* Max takeoff weight: 9,040 lb (4,100 kg)
* Powerplant: 1× Bristol-Siddeley Orpheus 701-01 turbojet, 4,705 lbf (20.9 kN)


(Marut Mk.1)

General characteristics

* Crew: 1
* Length: 15.87 m (52 ft 1 in)
* Wingspan: 9.00 m (29 ft 6 in)
* Height: 3.60 m (11 ft 10 in)
* Wing area: 28 m² (300 ft²)
* Empty weight: 6,195 kg (13,660 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 10,908 kg (24,048 lb)
* Powerplant: 2× Bristol-Siddeley Orpheus Mk 703 turbojet, 21.6 kN (4,850 lbf) each

Performance

* Maximum speed: 1,128 km/h (609 kn, 701 mph)
* Range: 800 km (430 NM, 500 mi)
* Service ceiling: 13,750 m (45,100 ft)

buddy you need to learn how to read slowly and carefully... i said.. Murat was designed by a German scientist which in cooperated systems from Gnat or the BAE hint your own source, another hint power plant.

 

[macintosh]

Indian history of Marut or LCA isn't something exrtemely positrive. The size of Indian economy would make India as good as China but in reality China has copid projects and started own designs. Without much assistance and under boycot from western powers. India on the other hand has all the assets but still does not end with a success. Arjun is gone. LCA is nice but we would have expected more. Whether India learned from it? They added US engine. Kaveri failed. They added Israeli avionics. Their own products are not accepted. They had added composites. It was bought from a western firm. They added weapons. Sofar only Russian. Ok, they wrote their own FBW... So in the end thy have less then a mirage 2000H and it costed a fortune. Pak gets a decent plane with almost unrelistic low costs...

Man if you are happy with china copying other fighters and providing russian engines to Pak then be it.India may not be able to produce good engines but even china which is long producing or copying other AC'S is not able to produce it's own engine.Besides LCA may have taken a huge time but it provided India with technological advantages especially after ban on sensitive tech. after nuke tests.And you saying that "Arjun is gone." is complete BS.Indian army chief has recently praised Arjun just before it's comparative trials against T 90.Israeli avionics are being added because they are best in the field.As far as you saying "Pak gets a decent plane with almost unrelistic low costs." ,Pak has gained little tech. developments if anything by this AC.So in short term you may be happy for time and cost, but the advancements made in developing LCA will certainly help in MCA and thus in long term.

 

[24*]

Indian history of Marut or LCA isn't something exrtemely positrive. India on the other hand has all the assets but still does not end with a success. Arjun is gone. LCA is nice but we would have expected more. Whether India learned from it? They added US engine. Kaveri failed. They added Israeli avionics. Their own products are not accepted. They had added composites. It was bought from a western firm. They added weapons. Sofar only Russian. Ok, they wrote their own FBW... So in the end thy have less then a mirage 2000H and it costed a fortune. Pak gets a decent plane with almost unrelistic low costs...

GOOD! Keep livin in denial.....

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Back to the topic please.

And Raja Kavuru, we do not allow posts or links from BR here.

 

[mean_bird]

Tejas has already achieved 22AOA and donot worry IAF has already ordered 40 Tejas in MK-1 ,you show me one creditable link which says Tejas will not pull more then 6Gs ??

I have already posted a proof in my last post and many proofs throughout this thread. Read my posts in this very thread.

Also it says LCA achieved 17° AOA against a minimum required of 21° and there is no room for further improvement in current batch.


Now can you tell us where you got this 22AoA from....? I hope its not BR or wiki.

coming to JF-17 even first batch of 50 JF-17 will have Chinese radar and Avionics and only Batch two or should i say MK-II aircrafts will have French/Italian radar and western avionics so even first batch of JF-17 is just facing saving measure to be used for Training and Testing purpose before JF-17 MK-II takes flight incorporating Western Avionics

The Chinese Radar incorporated is a very capable one and it had beaten its competitive the Griffo S-7. Its the derivative of the radar used in the J-10

PAF is looking to change a radar because they are looking for an AESA radar just like IAF is also looking to change their radars. AESA is a new technology and currently, neither India nor pakistan has any AESA radar in a fighter ( they both have it but in AWACS or AEW&C).

Also, a radar can be upgraded at a later stage but you cannot reduce the weight of an already manufactured plane....and neither can you replace the engine (unless its the exact same dimensions).

Get your facts right before posting.

 

[hj786]

Man if you are happy with china copying other fighters and providing russian engines to Pak then be it.India may not be able to produce good engines but even china which is long producing or copying other AC'S is not able to produce it's own engine.Besides LCA may have taken a huge time but it provided India with technological advantages especially after ban on sensitive tech. after nuke tests.And you saying that "Arjun is gone." is complete BS.Indian army chief has recently praised Arjun just before it's comparative trials against T 90.Israeli avionics are being added because they are best in the field.As far as you saying "Pak gets a decent plane with almost unrelistic low costs." ,Pak has gained little tech. developments if anything by this AC.So in short term you may be happy for time and cost, but the advancements made in developing LCA will certainly help in MCA and thus in long term.

You want to post this kind of trash, provide links on the following parts of your post:

Who did China copy JH-7, J-10, J-7E, FC-1/JF-17 from?

Prove that WS-10 and WS-13 are copied from foreign engines.

How can China not produce engines when they have been building their WP-series turbojets and WS-series turbofans for years, indigenous as well as foreign designs?

Which tech. developments have Pakistan gained and not gained from the JF-17 project? Prove Pakistan has "little tech. developments if anything" and that the JF-17 project only has short term benefits for Pakistan.

Lets hear some facts for a change, macintosh. You do have some, right? Or are you just regurgitating baseless BS from certain Indian sources like Kavuru?

GOOD! Keep livin in denial.....

You mean he should be just like you?

 

[Contrarian]

And we all know the high g's LCA can pull. Currently, the K-8 trainer can do better than that.

So by your logic, the K-8 should be better than the LCA.

They were also asking the US companies for the same help they are asking European companies, that's why. Also US was not hesitant to transfer the technology to India. It was the companies who were saying that the rework would be so much that it would need their permission.

That is conjecture. And it would be wise if you stay away from it. The amount of work or refinement needed on the plane is not privy to you. It is stated US policy, it doesnt depend on the amount of work, it depends on whether the work is done at all-little or a lot is irrelevant.

The single major headache for the LCA is that its overweight and that too by 1.5 tons...that's no small amount and the Indian engineers have no solution for it.

Maybe so? How does it matter? They are working on it. Whether or not it yields results, remains to be seen. And i told you, the batch config will change before it enters operational service.

Try explaining that to your fellow forumers. Apparently, the first batch of LCA has been ordered so we can assume they will be flying sometime. Atleast, for this batch the configuration won't be changing so we can discuss that.

Batch configuration will in all likelihood change. Therefore i said, wait for it to enter the first sqdrn, then we can start comparing.

Please provide a prove for that. The news I posted clearly mentions the current AoA to be 17° while the minimum requirement to be 21°

Things have moved beyond what the article has said.They are working on it. What they ideally initially wanted has not been delivered, but they are just shy of what is the requirement in the ASQR.

You don't need more than 4-5 prototypes to evaluate an aircraft and its ability. You certainly do not make a whole sqdrn in your Airforce just for testing.

They are just buying it so they can atleast lay off the criticism. Now they can say, the aircraft is complete and delivered and now we are working on an upgrade, etc. It saves face because in reality the second batch (if and when it makes it) would actually be the first batch worthy of air combat.

This is precisely what im saying. You only need 4-5 prototypes for testing. They are going for 2 operational sqdrns. It is not just for testing. Its a heck of a lot more.

The first batch will also serve as a trainer jet since atleast it can get off the ground and do limited maneuvers. The pilots will also get used to the cockpit and most probably it would be comparable if not better than IAF's existing trainers.

It will certainly boost HAL's confidence and keep the morale high and provide them some cash.

IAF already has been given an AJT-Hawk. They dont need another advanced trainer. The IJT is also in its final stages of development. At max what the LCA can be is a LIFT, that too only for the LCA fighter. There is no need, nor requirement for a trainer apart from LIFT-which again is a moot point. Its not meant to be a trainer. You can choose to believe what you want to.