JF-17 has edge over LCA: Pak officials

[booo]

- The so hyped 45% composites used in LCA are by weight not surface area

you mean to say a sheet made from 1kg metal has more area than a sheet made from 1kg composite (carbon fibre+epoxy); care to explain how

 

[mean_bird]

EADS has been contracted by ADA to aid the test flights of LCA. It is meant to quanlify LCA in the best possible and least number of sorties. It has nothing to do with design or improvement of LCA. Its for aiding the tests being conducted on LCA for IOC.

Mind telling us why US companies had asked for explicit permission from US for producing/ exporting LCA if the only thing is flight testing?

"Disclosing this to The Hindu, a senior ADA official said the EADS would help in solving a number of problems the programme was facing.

Though the ADA initially envisaged an assistance only for the LCA’s fledgling flight test programme, where the EADS will provide crucial inputs, now the European consortium’s expertise is also being sought in realms such as brake management, the weight of the undercarriage, and redesigning the wheels and tyres to reduce wear and tear. "
The Hindu : National : $20 million aid sought to speed up LCA project

LCA already pulled 6G's
LCA Problems with Landing gear ?? Provide me a link
LCA does not have problem with aerodynamics only minor improvement will come in air intake to support higher trust engine on MK-II
EADS are only consulting for reducing the number of sorties
IAF have already ordered 8 LSP ,12 Trainers, 20 MK-1 =40 + 20 expected order by 2012 in first batch and 20x6=120 in MK-II and 40 Naval Tejas (MK-I/II) numbers will go up

Wow!

Congratulations!!!

So now the LCA has added 0.5 more Gs to pull (btw need source for that).

Man that's great....but....emmm...errr....I don't know how to break this news to you....but ...... that's less than what our K-8 trainer can do. (7.33g)

Re landing gear and EADS: see quoted news above

Ah...aerodynamics... check this out (maneuverability):

"The home-grown Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which is set to be inducted in 2011, will not be able to fly with a full-weapon load and will also need a new engine—instead of the Kaveri engine—to meet the minimum requirements for fighter aircraft drawn up by the Indian Air Force (IAF). To accommodate these modifications, the planes will also need to be redesigned.

In what could be a deathblow to the indigenous fighter programme, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has conceded that the first lot of planes to enter service will not only carry a limited load of weapons but will also have a restricted ‘angle of attack’, making them unsuitable for aerial combat.

The primary reason for the problem is the lower thrust provided by the GE 404 engine powering the aircraft. While plans to develop a newer engine are under discussion, there is no scope for improvement at least for the first lot of 40 aircraft, of which 20 have already been ordered by the IAF. “There is no way that the first 40 aircraft will have any other engine than the GE 404. The engine gives a power of 80-85 Kilo Newton while the IAF requires them to have a capability of 95-100 Kilo Newton,” a top MoD source said, adding that the current thrust provided by the engine limits the angle of attack — a measure of the maneouverability of the aircraft—to 17 degrees against the IAF’s minimum requirement of 21 degrees. This makes the fighter unsuitable for aerial combat, especially given that neighbouring countries already possess more agile fighter planes. "

LCA needs new engine to be worthy of combat
The Hindu : National : LCA dogged by engine power limitations

for me the point is that for a plane that has been on paper since almost ten years or so still have number of flaws that are unsolved. i mean if a proble was not fixed on paper it will never ever be fixed easily in actual. atleast when in design the system must be perfect so that even if there are some problems while transferring the design into actual platform, the number of problems that need to be fixed is mimimum. here the case is different, even in design the LCA inheritently faced number of flaws that are being taken care of now and this have caused the project decades!!!

i hope you people agree!!

Absolutely right!
just one correction....Its been on paper for over 25 years and is already late by a decade and a half (15yrs).

Guys tell me what is the MTO of JF-17 ?? as per Jf-17.com it is just 12700 KG while Tejas has close to 14500 KG (6500 Empty TOW +2350 Internal Fuel + 5500kg )

JF-17.com is not an official website...and also what matters is the amount of weapons they can carry. MTOW is the maximum allowable weight for it to get airborne...not for combat. Also the load of weapon depend on what the wings can carry.
Do us a favor and check the loaded weights and weapon load for each aircraft, give us a source ( a reliable one) and we will discuss it.

 

[Contrarian]

No ADA can't do it alone. ADA does not have the technical expertise and experience and that's why ADA is cotracting outside help. Yes I do agree with you that it would have take ADA a long time based on their past development history. Do I have to mention that?

ADA does have the technical expertise, what they dont have is experience. That is what i have said, EADS would reduce the time required to fulfill test parameters by atleast half.

So what you are saying that it took ADA more than 30 years to develop a plane and now it would have taken them 10 to 15 more years to test it, but by contracting outside help would reduce the test time to half. Good luck

Did i say that? Stop trying to put words in other people's mouths.

 

[Contrarian]

Mind telling us why US companies had asked for explicit permission from US for producing/ exporting LCA if the only thing is flight testing?

US Policy. Thats the reason Boeing was not contracted.

"Disclosing this to The Hindu, a senior ADA official said the EADS would help in solving a number of problems the programme was facing.

Though the ADA initially envisaged an assistance only for the LCA’s fledgling flight test programme, where the EADS will provide crucial inputs, now the European consortium’s expertise is also being sought in realms such as brake management, the weight of the undercarriage, and redesigning the wheels and tyres to reduce wear and tear. "
The Hindu : National : $20 million aid sought to speed up LCA project

They may have decided on consultancy as well. I had not seen this news report before.

Im all for it though, they should get all the assistance they want.

 

[hj786]

Great job mean_bird, keep it up bro!

Guys tell me what is the MTO of JF-17 ?? as per Jf-17.com it is just 12700 KG while Tejas has close to 14500 KG (6500 Empty TOW +2350 Internal Fuel + 5500kg )

Here I am assuming that you mean 5500kg = external load of LCA...

HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Hardpoints: 8 total... with a capacity of >4000 kg external fuel and ordnance,"

Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)
Maximum External Stores Load 4000kg (8818 lbs.)

Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)
Maximum External Stores Load 4000kg (8818 lbs.)

Tejas Light Combat Supersonic Fighter - Air Force Technology
External Payload More than 4,000kg

Aerospaceweb.org | Aircraft Museum - Tejas / Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)
Max Payload 8,820 lb (4,000 kg)

Trying to mislead people about LCA zeus? Looks like I just cooked your goose.

so the LCA developers one day got themselves a JF-17 and tested it and found that it was way better than the LCA....so they decided to go for the mark-II to beat the JF-17!
we have all the resources for hierarchical development of the LCA...and the newer version of anything is always better than the previous one.your logic is baseless in this regard.

WTF? You continue shouting that composites make LCA stealthy even though you have been provided with neutral, reliable sources to the contrary, yet you accuse MY logic of being baseless?

 

[zeus]

hj786 same link you provided (First one ) says MTO is 14500 there is no mention of External Fuel Capacity yet if the Empty TOW is 6500kg + 4000 External Stores taking you point + 2350 Internal Fuel = 12850KG just more then JF-17 MTO ,if JF-17 is not official Website even Global security says MTO is 12500 KG only

 

[zeus]

mean_bird thats the max G's that trainer can pull 7.33G Tejas Airframe is designed to pull 9G it has pulled 6Gs till now you donot have any proof that it cannot pull more do you ?? and will get to there before IOC ,AS per MOD source 17 AOA and Not worthy of Air combat Crap there is no mention of the fractious source or is a self invented sources. not IAF official ever said Test Pilot i spoke to at Aero India were going gaga over Tejas range and handling and Avionics .

 

[zombie:-)]

you mean to say a sheet made from 1kg metal has more area than a sheet made from 1kg composite (carbon fibre+epoxy); care to explain how

haven't you learned science or are you forgetting it while replying to someones posts LCA HAS COMPOSITES 45% BY WEIGHT AND 90% BY SURFACE AREA OF THE AIRCRAFT and yes one kg of metal can be hammered to form a large area with small thickness and you cant hammer composites like metals

DONT MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELF

 

[Arsalan]

so what is the point,

a plane on paper having so many set backs and we are comparig it with the operational JF17!!

whats the deal man!!

i have already said that it must have proved to be perfect atleast when on paper, so that if some flaws come while its development they are only SOME!!

but working on a project with so many set-backs may be quite fruitless!!

 

[zombie:-)]

so what is the point,

a plane on paper having so many set backs and we are comparig it with the operational JF17!!

whats the deal man!!

i have already said that it must have proved to be perfect atleast when on paper, so that if some flaws come while its development they are only SOME!!

but working on a project with so many set-backs may be quite fruitless!!

if this is for me i am not comparing jf-17 wid LCA i just corrected his mistakes and am furious of his childishness and it is not feasible to compare because not of the fact that jf-17 is operational but because they are being built for completely different reasons

LCA is to gain or update our knowledge of building airplanes and structuring some or many of its systems and to replace mig -21bis wid a domestic aircraft coz it seems feasible due to its role( point defense ) and complexity

jf-17 is replacing old and aging fighters in your force with newer thech and a cheap replacement of f-7s by the Chinese and will also continue to strengthen your friendship with them

 

[Khajur]

so what is the point,

a plane on paper having so many set backs and we are comparig it with the operational JF17!!

whats the deal man!!

i have already said that it must have proved to be perfect atleast when on paper, so that if some flaws come while its development they are only SOME!!

but working on a project with so many set-backs may be quite fruitless!!

Hello,
LCA isnt just a plane on paper,there are some 5 prototypes which are flying in the sky.
Tell me how many JF 17 are operational in PAF??
How many squardon of JF 17 are there in PAF??
Just because PAF is satisfied with JF17 doesnt mean its flawless now & need any improvement.

Since indian Govt can afford expensive foreign toys,arm forces in india are habitual consiour of imported maal now.

Anyway DRDO is trying to put a worldclass fighter in the form of LCA.
With our limited resoures and lack of expertise ,its obvious there going to be hiccups and bottenecks when we have set our sight at certain height for LCA.

I'm sure when its actually inducted in to IAF ,LCA would holds own as a fine flying machine.

 

[zombie:-)]

Hello,
LCA isnt just a plane on paper,there are some 5 prototypes which are flying in the sky.
Tell me how many JF 17 are operational in PAF??
How many squardon of JF 17 are there in PAF??
Just because PAF is satisfied with JF17 doesnt mean its flawless now & need any improvement.

Since indian Govt can afford expensive foreign toys,arm forces in india are habitual consiour of imported maal now.

Anyway DRDO is trying to put a worldclass fighter in the form of LCA.
With our limited resoures and lack of expertise ,its obvious there going to be hiccups and bottenecks when we have set our sight at certain height for LCA.

I'm sure when its actually inducted in to IAF ,LCA would holds own as a fine flying machine.

there are more than 12 jf-17 in their inventory and stop comparing them read my earlier post and it has also got PAF backing and hence the project is truly a reality

 

[mean_bird]

US Policy. Thats the reason Boeing was not contracted.

They may have decided on consultancy as well. I had not seen this news report before.

Im all for it though, they should get all the assistance they want.

US policy kicks in when they have to export technology. Its obvious your claim of 'only testing' is false as there is no export of technology there. Anyway, I proved it otherwise with a reference also.

Foreign assistance is not a bad thing. indians should have asked for it way before, and maybe LCA project would have been in a better shape now. It does however, signal that there is a problem that they can't solve themselves right now. I never said its a bad thing...but the point is that this thread is LCA vs JF-17 as of now.

you mean to say a sheet made from 1kg metal has more area than a sheet made from 1kg composite (carbon fibre+epoxy); care to explain how

I mean to say which parts of the plane exactly are you putting the composites in? You use the CC is a heavy part, that is either internal or covers less area or in the skin that is lighter but covers more area, or at certain joints. AFAIK, most of the composites are used in the skeleton of the wing that was designed in Italy. If you are using most of the CCs in the rear fuselage, it isn't exactly helping in reducing the RCS. We are talking about radar wave reflection here....whats so difficult to understand?

mean_bird thats the max G's that trainer can pull 7.33G Tejas Airframe is designed to pull 9G it has pulled 6Gs till now you donot have any proof that it cannot pull more do you ?? and will get to there before IOC ,AS per MOD source 17 AOA and Not worthy of Air combat Crap there is no mention of the fractious source or is a self invented sources. not IAF official ever said Test Pilot i spoke to at Aero India were going gaga over Tejas range and handling and Avionics .

To start with, what you 'design' is not necessarily what you get. Tejas were also design to fly around 1995. They were also 'designed' to be light weight (they are currently overweight by a massive 1.5 tons). They were designed to have more G's, They were designed to have more AoA.

You didn't read my post, did you? It clearly says "there is no further room for improvement" and it will carry " a reduced weapons load" and it CANNOT add to its maneuverability - angle of attack - unless a new engine is fitted and there is NO CHANCE of that happening in the first batch.

Do me a favor...please next time you meet that Tejas test pilot...ask him why India isn't ordering any Tejas and preferring to fly the Mig-21s instead.

Bottom line is, LCA will not pull 9g's unless and until it gets a better engine and/or it reduces the excess 1.5 ton overweight....and thats assuming the airframe has no flaws and can manage it.

Whether you like it or not, the first batch of LCAs are nothing more than face-saving, testing and pilot training...but they are far from being combat worthy.

 

[Arsalan]

if this is for me i am not comparing jf-17 wid LCA i just corrected his mistakes and am furious of his childishness and it is not feasible to compare because not of the fact that jf-17 is operational but because they are being built for completely different reasons

LCA is to gain or update our knowledge of building airplanes and structuring some or many of its systems and to replace mig -21bis wid a domestic aircraft coz it seems feasible due to its role( point defense ) and complexity

jf-17 is replacing old and aging fighters in your force with newer thech and a cheap replacement of f-7s by the Chinese and will also continue to strengthen your friendship with them

no dear, no offense!

i was just pointing to the fact that there have been many problems that we have been listening to with the LCA, and now when it will be developed the real picture will come out but since this is not the case it is, i think, pointless to compare the two i-e the JF17 and the LCA!

one thing is for sure and you will also agree to it, the JF 17 is among the few planes in the world with huge potential for modifications, it can be refitted with quite a few number of new engines ad avionic packs without the need for a redesign! that is what makes it a better AC. we can easily change it accorging to our requirments and as we have money in hand, similarly for the export market this is one big plus point for the JF17,

once we start producing them om mass scale and export them, PAF can use the Revenue to turn it into a more superior platform. it is quite somewhat similar to the F16 project! you see generations gap between the first block F16z and the current Block 52 or Block60!! all this was made possible by the export orders!

i hope JF17 turns out to be one hell of a plane
May Allah Help Us!!!

 

[Arsalan]

Hello,
LCA isnt just a plane on paper,there are some 5 prototypes which are flying in the sky.
Tell me how many JF 17 are operational in PAF??
How many squardon of JF 17 are there in PAF??
Just because PAF is satisfied with JF17 doesnt mean its flawless now & need any improvement.

Since indian Govt can afford expensive foreign toys,arm forces in india are habitual consiour of imported maal now.

Anyway DRDO is trying to put a worldclass fighter in the form of LCA.
With our limited resoures and lack of expertise ,its obvious there going to be hiccups and bottenecks when we have set our sight at certain height for LCA.

I'm sure when its actually inducted in to IAF ,LCA would holds own as a fine flying machine.

oh come on!

there are ten planes currently operational, they are combat ready plaes and are being evaluated by the PAF for further improvement and training on JF17z

different weapons are alos bing checked and integrated onto them!!!