JF-17 has edge over LCA: Pak officials

[mean_bird]

any electronics engineer would study Radar somewhere in his/her degree.
it's not a show-off...but just that i am aware of the Radar fundamentals... and it's not that whatever i have posted is anyway wrong or incorrect.

Is that what they taught you? that 50% composites in a plane = 50% stealth?

looks like someone slept through radar classes

@ all
this forum is a good place to add-on to one's knowledge...although whatever we're discussing is sprawled all across the net...
are you disagreeing with the elaborate use of carbon composites not being a contributory factor in reducing the RCS?

I have explained exactly what the role of composites are in my previous post. Please re-read it. composites help reduce RCS at certain critical points and both LCA and JF-17 use composite at those points.

somebody is arguing that jammers cant contribute to stealth as they are just an electronic confinement technique...so you are agreeing to it being a contributing factor to the reduction of the RCS...but since it is not an inherent part of the design they cant be taken into account...well partly correct...but what i am saying is that...with the size+composite+a non-canard delta design(canards increase the RCS) comibned with an ew device like a good radar jammer would contibute to the overall stealth...where am i wrong in this?
lets keep the posts small shall we?

that somebody is me.
I repeat counter-measure is not equal to stealth. ECM are great protection to an aircraft but IT IS NOT STEALTH.

Since this thread is LCA vs JF-17, let me put it this way.

1. You can put a jamming pod on an LCA. You can put another jamming pod on the JF-17, or you can take the pod from one and put to the other, or take it off from both. You cannot take out the aerodynamic properties, engines, maneuverability of one plane and put to another.

Put simply, you can have 3 LCA (or JF-17)...one with no jamming pod, one is a less sophisticated one, or one with a advanced one depending on how much money you spend. But they all remain 3 LCA ( or JF-17). OTOH, if you change the RCS, aerodynamic properties, of one LCA from the other...they become different planes.

2. ECM can be countered by better radar and better BVRAAMs. While your ECM may jam a less sophisticated radar, I doubt it would jam and AESA with a AIM 120 C or MICA or METEOR. It depends how powerful your radar is.

3. Someone correct me if I am wrong on this on:
with jamming its difficult to lock on the aircraft...deosn't mean you are not aware of its presence. With stealth, you are completely unaware of the presence.


LOW RCS = very few radar waves are reflected back

ECM = countering the waves by emitting more powerful waves that confuses/nullifies the incoming ones

STEALTH = Absorbing the waves as if you aren't even there.

Hope that is explicit and clear. And do read my previous post regarding composites.

 

[paritosh]

oh blimey!...you seem to agreeingly disagree with what i post...i am confused...i am clutching out!
JF-17 zindaabad!

 

[Zob]

paritosh please put meaningful replies not something that U and only U seem to find humrous!!! thank u....!! i defintely learned something from mean-birds post!!

 

[Hasnain2009]

@ paritosh These are jamming pods installed on the top of the tail of jet, it has rectangular shape.



In this pic jamming pod is installed on the top of tail, on top where FC-1 is written.

Since jamming pods can be installed on any jet, now i m giong to install these pods on our K-8 trainer, that will make our trainer jet a stealth jet!!

 

[iceman2009]

11 Pages of threads.

TO TRY AND PROVE JF17 HAS EDGE OVER LCA

The conclusions

JF17 is deemed to be better by some because it will acheive IOC before LCA SOME CLAIM in April 2009.

JF17 has edge because it will be upgraded to block 2 which will include non chinease radar & missles. PAF is talking to France re RADAR & WEAPONS. Estimated time to achieve this is 2012 ie 3 Years approx. COST UNKNOWN.

JF17 will be delivered quicker in larger nos " i agree" on that point

JF17 has more range and better Thrust to weight ratio.

JF17 will be improved in the future with more composites and a chinease AESA radar. NO TIME SCALE on this. YET. but wat will happen to french radar ???

JF17 will drop Russian engine RD93 in future ad acquire a Western engine ie EJ200 OR SNEMCA from France.

" Have i missed something obvious boys" ?????

 

[iceman2009]

LCA fan boys counter argument.

JF17 is inferior in several aspects as we stand today. FORGET the future variants they say.

LCA has better FBW control ie Quadruplex versis single digi FBW.

LCA has nearly 50% compsite structure versis nil for JF17

LCA already carries a WESTERN ie American engine & Israeli Radar as standard Versis JF17 something the PAFs want in the future.

LCA can already use both Russian & western armaments. JF17 at Present can only carry chinease PL9 & SD10.

LCA will achieve IOC alot sooner than SOME PDF members believe ie 2010-2011 RATHER than just a failed project.

LCA has a massibe indian support infrastructutre already establised as its been built in india by indian DRDO/HAL. JF17 is built officially in china by chengdu. ie Does PAF the same extensive infrastucture already in place to build block 2 or 3 like LCA people clearly already have in place...


AGAIN HAVE I MISSED SOMTHING

 

[Neo]

AGAIN HAVE I MISSED SOMTHING

Yes, you forgot to tell that the devine plane still fails to meet IAF's requirements and no further orders are made sofar despite all the greatness it possess.

 

[paritosh]

Yes, you forgot to tell that the devine plane still fails to meet IAF's requirements and no further orders are made sofar despite all the greatness it possess.

and the chinese are still evaluating the requirement of the JF-17 in their airforce...they havnt ordered a single JF-17 for themselves...while pakistan feels that Jf-17 is the best fighter they could have laid their hands on....the IAF would instead of patronizing the 'home made' aircraft...would have high expectations from any aircraft that is to join the ranks of the likes of SU-30 and the MRCA winner...as you might know that since the time when it was planned...the aircraft has undergone many changes...and the current news from the airforce is encouraging.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

and the chinese are still evaluating the requirement of the JF-17 in their airforce...they havnt ordered a single JF-17 for themselves...while pakistan feels that Jf-17 is the best fighter they could have laid their hands on....

I guess indians just don't know when to shut their mouths. it's painful to watch you guys brag about india, but the truth is, 2008 has been a horrible year for you. I mean you guys couldn't even get ramjet and guidance technology from Russia for your Brahmos missile.

first of all, FC-1 and JF-17 are two different aircraft. FC-1 is all-chinese, it's an export aircraft, so PLAAF not ordering FC-1 is a no-brainer. PLAAF will not order any export aircraft, they will only order aircraft specifically designated for them and tailored to meet their needs. JF-17 is another version of the FC-1, specifically tailored to meet the PAF's needs.

second, whether PLAAF orders the aircraft or not, the capabilities of the aircraft do not change. I have no idea why you set the PLAAF as the standard bearer for aircraft, their airforce is in pathetic shape and condition. their ORBAT is just to overpower Taiwan with thousands of pathetic aircraft, already expecting to lose hundreds in the process. I can't imagine how the PLAAF can possibly compare to the PAF, one of the most revered airforces in the world.

the IAF would instead of patronizing the 'home made' aircraft...would have high expectations from any aircraft that is to join the ranks of the likes of SU-30 and the MRCA winner...as you might know that since the time when it was planned...

IAF certainly does not have high expectations of the Su-30MKI, otherwise they would not be ordering 200 MRCA to replace a bunch of forty-year old MiGs. the only exceptional aircraft in your inventory Pakistani pilots would admire is the Mirage, we could care less about the Ruski-Soviet cold war junk-that doesn't mean we underestimate our enemies.

the aircraft has undergone many changes...and the current news from the airforce is encouraging.

I've only got one thing to say, "whatever"

you've spent nearly three decades on the Hal Tejas, and X amount of money. to design and develop a larger Hal Tejas-which by the way, upgrades are copied off of the JF-17 Block II-would take decades, going by your track record. You'd have to design the aircraft from scratch, again going through the hurdles of foreign assistance from UK, France, US, and Russia. in the end, when you do produce an aircraft, our current fleet would have been retired and we would have a fleet of StarTrek battleships.

oh yeah, and by the way, we rest a lot more easier knowing that our aircraft has nearly 800 export orders.

IDEAS 2008 secures orders worth $40m

KARACHI: The 5th International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) 2008 was a big success as private exhibitors have secured supply orders worth $40 million.

The event has also helped the country reach broad understanding with 11 serious buyers for the sale of arms and ammunition, said Director General Defence Export Promotion Organisation (DEPO) Maj Gen Mohammad Farooq in a press briefing here on Friday.

He along with Minister for Defence Production Abdul Qayyum Jatoi, State Minister for Defence Production Sardar Saleem Haider and Secretary Defence Production Lt Gen (rtd) Shahid Siddiq Tirmzey was responding to queries raised by journalists at the Expo Centre.

He said that overwhelming response was received from foreign exhibitors and delegates at the 5th IDEAS. This event has not only enhanced the image in the outside world but also nullified the security concerns about Pakistan. He also thanked Karachiites for showing hospitality to the exhibitors and visitors of IDEAS 2008. Secretary Defence Production said that 275 JF-17 thunder jet will be handed over to Pakistan Air Force after the completion of testing phase. “We have received so many queries for the purchase of these jets and more than 800 JF-17 will be exported to eight countries after meeting domestic requirements,” he said mentioning that once negotiations were materialized, the export of JF-17 could go beyond 800 units. These aircraft are produced under a technical collaboration with China and are also marketed under a joint venture with China, he said.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[mean_bird]

and the chinese are still evaluating the requirement of the JF-17 in their airforce...they havnt ordered a single JF-17 for themselves...while pakistan feels that Jf-17 is the best fighter they could have laid their hands on....the IAF would instead of patronizing the 'home made' aircraft...would have high expectations from any aircraft that is to join the ranks of the likes of SU-30 and the MRCA winner...as you might know that since the time when it was planned...the aircraft has undergone many changes...and the current news from the airforce is encouraging.

and the JF-17 was 'tailor-made' for the PAF and not PLAAF.

Prior to PAF joining the project, the then 'super-7' was an advancement of the J-7...an INTERCEPTOR and a mere advancement on a Mig-21 design..a 3rd generation fighter.

After PAF joining the project, the JF-17 as we know it today is a 'MULTI-ROLE' fighter that has hardly anything to do with Mig-21. If anything, its closer to an F-16 and is a 4rth generation fighter that incorporates many 4.5 generation characteristics as well as including 5th generation DSI.

China is now at the verge of being a super-power and needs more medium and heavy weight fighters. It can also afford more potent fighters like the J-10 and J-11.
JF-17 was always intended for the PAF.

LCA on the other hand had IAF as its primary target. Its a completely different story that the aircraft program is a complete in terms of management as well as the final project is in doldrums. Its primary customer is not satisfied with its capabilities and have outright reject any further order till the next make. Even then, the 'might consider' it and have no commitment.

The one good thing about LCA is it will surely register its name in the Guinness book as the longest running jet program without success. The other success would be no matter how much you fail, you gain some experience. Hopefully, the next fighter jet India tries to make would be slightly better and maybe they will look for partners from the start knowing well their capabilities.

Don't even get me started on how 'home-made' or 'indigenous' it is.

 

[hj786]

and the chinese are still evaluating the requirement of the JF-17 in their airforce...they havnt ordered a single JF-17 for themselves...while pakistan feels that Jf-17 is the best fighter they could have laid their hands on....the IAF would instead of patronizing the 'home made' aircraft...would have high expectations from any aircraft that is to join the ranks of the likes of SU-30 and the MRCA winner...as you might know that since the time when it was planned...the aircraft has undergone many changes...and the current news from the airforce is encouraging.

So what if Chinese are still evaluating? What similarities does China have with Pakistan that mean PLAAF must have the same aircraft as PAF? Have you looked at a map of Asia recently?
The reason that Pakistanis feel JF-17 is the best fighter Pakistan could have laid its hands on is simple. It is being produced by Pak, modified/upgraded by Pak, sold by Pak, Pakistan is profiting from it. You find me ONE bad thing in that list?
LCA has not been inducted in ANY air force yet you're criticising JF-17 for being inducted into PAF as we speak, possibly being ordered by Azerbaijan and several other countries being interested in it? Oh well, I guess it is to be expected of somebody who tried to convince intelligent people that LCA is some kind of stealth fighter - wouldn't that put it above "the likes of SU-30 and MRCA winner" rather than below?

Sorry for the long replies above, we know you don't like those. Is this shorter one OK?

 

[mundaus]

.... any aircraft that is to join the ranks of the likes of SU-30.

About Su-30MKI Red Flag
Aviation Week, Nov5, 2008

Against the much larger RCS Su-30MKI, the F-16s and F-15s won consistently during the first three days of air-to-air combat, he continues. However, that was the result of trying to immediately go into a post-stall, thrust-vectored turn when attacked. The turn then creates massive drag and the aircraft starts sinking and losing altitude. "It starts dropping so fast you don't have to go vertical [first]. The low-speed tail slide allowed the U.S. aircraft to dive from above and "get one chance to come down to shoot," the pilot says. "You go to guns and drill his brains out." The Su-30 is jamming your missiles so...you go to guns and drill his brains out."

 

[paritosh]

Is that what they taught you? that 50% composites in a plane = 50% stealth?

looks like someone slept through radar classes

50% of carbon composites even if contribute to 10% of stealth would benefit the plane.

I have explained exactly what the role of composites are in my previous post. Please re-read it. composites help reduce RCS at certain critical points and both LCA and JF-17 use composite at those points.

and at the other 'critical' points they wouldn't?
the LCA uses much more composite material than the JF-17...that is the whole point!
the more the radar absorbent material is loaded in the plane the stealthier it is...the material is one of the most important factors in providing stealth...resistive carbon coating(any resistive coating would do...but as you'd know that an insulator's resistivity> a conductor's resistivity) is beneficial in reducing the RCS everywhere on the plane's body.
read this instead of the incorrect articles on the wiki...


i quote from this article....
"One area where composites have a significant advantage over most metallic structures is in radar cross-section reduction. Composites generally reflect less radar energy than metallic structures and advanced composite materials offer this benefit with structural, heat-resistance and configuration advantages. Aircraft can be formed with smoother lines, fewer areas where different materials merge and in complex shapes required for reduced signature requirements. The F/A-22, B-2, F/A-18E/F and unmanned aerospace vehicles such as the X-45 UCAV include a significant amount of composite materials."

that somebody is me.
I repeat counter-measure is not equal to stealth. ECM are great protection to an aircraft but IT IS NOT STEALTH.

quite right...counter-measures can provide only pseudo-stealth...even the best stealth techs tend to have loop-holes....as an example any stealth plane employing today's stealth tech would be detected the moment it fires any weapon.the radar has to receive the radar pulse fired in the direction of an incoming aircraft....now the puls has to be reflected back by the aircraft and this reflected beam is received by the radar and the RCs is calculated on the basis of the energy of the received beam wrt the incident beam on the aircraft.so all that matters is the nature of reflection occuring at the plane's surface(or absorption for that matter)....the radar jammer...helps to distort the incoming radar beam and renders it unusable(is intended to).

Since this thread is LCA vs JF-17, let me put it this way.

1. You can put a jamming pod on an LCA. You can put another jamming pod on the JF-17, or you can take the pod from one and put to the other, or take it off from both. You cannot take out the aerodynamic properties, engines, maneuverability of one plane and put to another.

exactly...now the smallest supersonic jet in the world consisting of the maximum amount of carbon composite matrial which even supersedes the amount in the JSF....if equipped with a potent israeli jammer(none other)....would count for a reduced RCS.

Put simply, you can have 3 LCA (or JF-17)...one with no jamming pod, one is a less sophisticated one, or one with a advanced one depending on how much money you spend. But they all remain 3 LCA ( or JF-17). OTOH, if you change the RCS, aerodynamic properties, of one LCA from the other...they become different planes.

so?

2. ECM can be countered by better radar and better BVRAAMs. While your ECM may jam a less sophisticated radar, I doubt it would jam and AESA with a AIM 120 C or MICA or METEOR. It depends how powerful your radar is.

yes i think so too...but technology is ever-changing...for AESA and whatever follows..there'd be jammers to counter...and besides AESA would take some decades to become common-place.

3. Someone correct me if I am wrong on this on:
with jamming its difficult to lock on the aircraft...deosn't mean you are not aware of its presence. With stealth, you are completely unaware of the presence.

you are part right.we are not talking of full-fledged stealth here...both the thunder and the tejas are incapable of that...by design.we are talking of semi-stealth which the 4-5 gen fighter are very much capable of achieving.jamming would reduce the RCS...a bomber with an able jammer would give the RCS of a flock of birds(albeit depending on another variable which is the strength of the radar in question)

LOW RCS = very few radar waves are reflected back

true.

ECM = countering the waves by emitting more powerful waves that confuses/nullifies the incoming ones

just like active and passive radars...the jammers are also active and passive.the jammers or the counter-measurs you are talking about are passive(as they are employed as counter-measures!)
while an active jammer would constantly cut-out the incoming radar energy thus contributing in the reduced RCS.

STEALTH = Absorbing the waves as if you aren't even there.

absorbing(surface coating/material)+deflecting(basic shape of the plane and it's cross-sectional area and not it's surface area...read about corner reflection in this regard)+destroying(jammers)

Hope that is explicit and clear. And do read my previous post regarding composites.

i have made corrections where i thought necessary.

 

[paritosh]

the link..
Composite materials in modern aircrafts

 

[paritosh]

So what if Chinese are still evaluating? What similarities does China have with Pakistan that mean PLAAF must have the same aircraft as PAF? Have you looked at a map of Asia recently?
The reason that Pakistanis feel JF-17 is the best fighter Pakistan could have laid its hands on is simple. It is being produced by Pak, modified/upgraded by Pak, sold by Pak, Pakistan is profiting from it. You find me ONE bad thing in that list?
LCA has not been inducted in ANY air force yet you're criticising JF-17 for being inducted into PAF as we speak, possibly being ordered by Azerbaijan and several other countries being interested in it? Oh well, I guess it is to be expected of somebody who tried to convince intelligent people that LCA is some kind of stealth fighter - wouldn't that put it above "the likes of SU-30 and MRCA winner" rather than below?

Sorry for the long replies above, we know you don't like those. Is this shorter one OK?

i dont know what you read...but what you are saying is exactly what i meant....i will rephrase...the paf needs the JF-17 for it's specific requirments while china has different requirements...the chinese view the amreicans as a grave threat...so would like planes that can counter the american planes...you conisder the IAF as your nemesis...so the JF-17 for you.
i am gettin used to them long replies mate!