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JF-17 has edge over LCA: Pak officials

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point out where the JF-17 scores over the LCA...
LCA may have more advace systems on "PAPER" because IAF budget can afford such expensive stuff which crosses 20 million dollars mark.

the LCA's thrust/weight ratio is better than that of the JF-17...that should be taken into account as well...
ohhh really? prove it! thats why i said.. LCA may be better on "PAPER" only! in practical life its just a lame piece of junk. LCA can hardly pull 5 Gs and no more then 18 AOA.. now thats a shame! i have not seen a single video of LCA pulling any hard Gs at all.. heck it cant even complet a simple 360 degree turn! indians delusional they are always for get that only 50 JF-17 will use RD-93 as a stop gap before a more powerful engine is and will be sorted out. WS-13 or French engine are likely to equip 2nd block.

and the almost 50% composite material body does allow the LCA the flexibility of making high G turns at high speeds
oh really? Mig-21 with old airframe can out manover and out turn LCA at current stage:woot: nice try buddy.. but LCA sucks..

LCA is the smallest plane...it's composite body and and small size with the use of good israeli jammers would definitely provide it significant stealth.the use of canards would impair that...
Your Gnats "much smaller then LCA" were detected jusst as any of other IAF fighters in the old age so what makes you think LCA is going to be even close to being stealthy? LCA at most will have Mig-21 RCS. and just cuz this and that is IAI staped does not mean you have super aliean technololgy! South Korea has offered ALQ-200K to PAF JF-17 block 2 which will be produced in 2 years.
afterall we got the canards installed in the Su-30 mki...why would we miss them on the LCA?
:rofl::rofl::rofl: LCA with canards?
 
While your post isn't directed at me, but let me answer some of that.

that's a long post...point out where the JF-17 scores over the LCA...you are right...it's hard for me to prove...RSS was incorporated to remove the short-falls of the pure delta design.
JF-17 is unstable (by design) in the pitch axis because of LERX moving the center of lift forward and DSI reducing weight in the front and moving the center of gravity further back. What this means is that the nose of the plane will have a tendency to to pitch up and become unstable ( to be controlled by FBW) and hence allow much more maneuverability in both pitch and yaw.

The LERX also provide more lift and hence enabling a higher angle of attack (AoA).

The LCA OTOH, with its delta wings is more unstable in its role axis...good for airshows on a sunny sunday afternoon but lesser angle of attack and less agile in pitch.

JF-17 is optimized for high maneuverability at low-speed (thanks to LERX ) while LCA, with its delta wings is optimized for high speeds....which goes with their roles...the JF-17 being a multi-role fighter and the LCA primarily suited as an interceptor.

the LCA's thrust/weight ratio is better than that of the JF-17...that should be taken into account as well...and the almost 50% composite material body does allow the LCA the flexibility of making high G turns at high speeds

FALSE!

you are quoting what it was suppose to do NOT what it is doing. LCA today, even with a powerful US engine and Italian designed wings with high composites material, is way too much overweight (overweight by at least 1.5 tonnes).

That's why they contacted US companies for help, who after analysis said the amount of work that needs to be redone will make India require US permission for sale of the aircraft. They are now turning to europeans, most probably EADS of France for help to reduce weight.

Just to refresh your memory that instead of the state +9g, the LCA has not managed anything above +6 at the moment.

It is yet to be seen how much of a design change will the french have to do and what will be the time frame. Most probably another 3-5 years before they can get the current configuration or somethings close to it.

And I am just talking about help sought to the airframe. India is also seeking help in the braking system, landing gears, etc (but hey...it will 100% indigenous Indian pride)

FBW...incorporated in LCA as well...so lets stick to where the differences occur.
So does the JF-17.

LCA is the smallest plane...it's composite body and and small size with the use of good israeli jammers would definitely provide it significant stealth.the use of canards would impair that...afterall we got the canards installed in the Su-30 mki...why would we miss them on the LCA?

jammers do not provide stealth.
 
that's a long post...point out where the JF-17 scores over the LCA...you are right...it's hard for me to prove...RSS was incorporated to remove the short-falls of the pure delta design.the LCA's thrust/weight ratio is better than that of the JF-17...that should be taken into account as well...and the almost 50% composite material body does allow the LCA the flexibility of making high G turns at high speeds
FBW...incorporated in LCA as well...so lets stick to where the differences occur.
LCA is the smallest plane...it's composite body and and small size with the use of good israeli jammers would definitely provide it significant stealth.the use of canards would impair that...afterall we got the canards installed in the Su-30 mki...why would we miss them on the LCA?
Sorry for the long replies, but your posts are very innaccurate.
It is not "hard for you to prove". It is impossible for you to prove what is not released to the public, unless you have inside information.
Can you even prove LCA's thrust to weight ratio (TWR) is better than that of JF-17? It was designed to be, but since LCA turned out to be over-weight it seems that it is not. The TWR of JF stated by the manufacturers is under-stated according to an ex PAF pilot - "it is much higher than you think". Seems to me that LCA does not have a higher TWR at all.

You say the composite body allows LCA to make high G high speed turns. This indicates to me that you have no idea what you are talking about.
The composite body of LCA is supposed to reduce weight (something it has failed to do, apparently), aerodynamics and engine thrust are what allows LCA to make high g high speed turns, although composites do help turning performance slightly by decreasing weight. Composites are supposed to increase TWR by decreasing weight, not make LCA turn faster.
You should also know that JF-17's high g high speed turning performance has been compared to that of F-16A, which is by far the most maneuverable of all F-16s (yes, even the latest F-16C Block 52 and F-16E block 60 - these two are in fact the least maneuverable due to weight increases that the original airframe was not designed to take).

According to you, because of LCA's small size and composite body, combined with Israeli jammers, it has "significant stealth". This proves you really don't know what you are talking about. Firstly, JF is not really any larger than LCA:
Wikipedia said:
JF:
# Length: 14.0 m (49 ft)
# Wingspan: 9.45 m (31 ft)
# Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
LCA:
# Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
# Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
# Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)
Secondly, composites do not make a stealthy fighter, else why aren't Rafale and Typhoon considered "significantly stealthy" fighters? You don't seriously think India is the only country that can make a fighter with lots of composites, do you? All of Europe's and America's latest AIRLINERS (and high performance sports cars) are constructed using lots of composites. China's J-11B uses significant amount of composites too (weight is reduced by 700kg according to sinodefence), they don't claim it to be a stealthy fighter.
Composites reduce RCS slightly, that is all. All the latest fighters (except perhaps the current JF-17) use them, not just LCA. The point is, LCA will still be detected and targeted, just like Typhoon and Rafale - the fact of the matter is this: composites don't make a stealth fighter.

Also, saying LCA is stealthy due to Israeli jammers is ridiculous. Don't you know that jammers actually give away the position of the fighter? The latest air to air missiles have home-on-jam modes, yes including JF's SD-10! Please don't start saying "yeah but the F-15 pilot at red flag said mig-21 bisons were invisible to radar...", he was exaggerating, even if Israeli jammers stop radar-homing missile lock (and I am pretty sure they can't except at very long range and against older radars, radar jamming gets much less effective as range is reduced) the latest missiles have home-on-jam modes anyway.
I would also into account that JF-17 is actually being modified in the next batches to reduce RCS, including greater use of composite materials and even a new twin tail fin design according to a PAF insider.

If use of canards impaired the so called "stealthy" characteristics of LCA, why do Gripen, Typhoon and Rafale use them? If you are going to say "LCA is supposed to be stealthier than the latest European fighters", then answer this: why does Saab's new stealth fighter proposal to South Korea have canards:

Search it up on google - "Saab Offers Supercruising Stealth to South Korea"
I'll tell you why I think you missed canards on LCA. According to reports that there are problems with high AoA performance and EADS will be helping with the mark 2 redesign, it seems that LCA's aerodynamics are not very good.
I doubt very much LCA's designers designed the canards of MKI, I'm not even sure the flanker needs canards - the SU-35 certainly doesn't.
Another point: if LCA has so much composites, why is it over-weight? I believe the amount of composites used in LCA is over-blown, just hype by the manufacturer.

I hope you notice that in this post as well as my previous post, I have not made fun of the LCA in any way - I hope you will consider this and take my posts seriously. If we look at facts, LCA is simply not the superior stealth fighter it is made out to be by (Indian) fanboys.
 
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LCA is not a superior Stealth fighter i don,t believe anybody claimed that HJ786.

But its cetainly is a true 4th generation fighter that will enter service as ACM Major indicated in 2010-2011. Despite all the constant jibes that it will nver see the light of day on this forum.

The single biggest advantage of LCA over JF17 is this

The infrastructure that built the LCA ie the wind tunnels, the flight simulators the work shops, the engineers the scientists are all in place to move on to the next project.

Those projects include a Tech demonstrator for MCA and beyond that unmanned combat vehicles in the future.

THAT IS THE BIGGEST ACHIEVEMENT FOR DRDO & HAL as confirmed at Aero india 2009.
 
LCA is not a superior Stealth fighter i don,t believe anybody claimed that HJ786.
:lol: Yeah right. That is pretty much exactly what you guys have been saying! Admit it. You guys have been constantly shouting LCA is stealthy and superior to JF-17. Now when people show you they are not foolish enough to believe you without researching the facts, you say "oh no wait, actually we did not say that, we were talking about the workshops and wind tunnels all along"? Come on, you think after I wrote all those long replies to your posts I will forget what they contained?

The single biggest advantage of LCA over JF17 is this
The infrastructure that built the LCA ie the wind tunnels, the flight simulators the work shops, the engineers the scientists are all in place to move on to the next project.
Those projects include a Tech demonstrator for MCA and beyond that unmanned combat vehicles in the future.
That is not an advantage over JF-17, that is an advantage over Pakistan. Not a very big one considering LCA project still is not finished.
 
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LCA is not a superior Stealth fighter i don,t believe anybody claimed that HJ786.

But its cetainly is a true 4th generation fighter that will enter service as ACM Major indicated in 2010-2011. Despite all the constant jibes that it will nver see the light of day on this forum.

The single biggest advantage of LCA over JF17 is this

The infrastructure that built the LCA ie the wind tunnels, the flight simulators the work shops, the engineers the scientists are all in place to move on to the next project.

Those projects include a Tech demonstrator for MCA and beyond that unmanned combat vehicles in the future.

THAT IS THE BIGGEST ACHIEVEMENT FOR DRDO & HAL as confirmed at Aero india 2009.


Only ONE squadron of an underpowered, overweight LCA will (or might) enter service by 2011 for the following reasons:

1. To save face, its been in design stage for a fre**ing 2 and a half decades.
2. To give HAL "some hope" and money
3. To replace the flying coffins

But no larger order of LCA can be expected until and unless those issues, as I mentioned in my previous post, are resolved and for that you are looking at beyond 2014 before commencing any production.

We are talking about performance and maneuverability of the planes and both I and hj786 have proved to you that JF-17 scores over LCA. Till now, you have failed to provide one justification to counter that.

Yes, people do not succeed the first time. True, this is a great learning curve for India that will help it in the long run but one should be modest to accept what the reality is, and build on that rather than having tall claims.
 
IAF is expecting a lot from TEJAS they are highly critical and not blind paitriots like many people on this forum.

They openly question & criticise defenciences.

They want a true 4 GENERATION FIGHTER with brute power at 95kt..

AFTER THE FIRST 40 BLOCK 1 LCA TEJAS ARE DELIVERED ONE OF 2 THINGS WILL HAPPEN.

1. DRDO/HAL will deliver the BOCK 2 to IAF expectations

OR

2. IAF will increase order of MRCA to 200 planes..rather than 126.


TIME FRAME FOR THIS IS AROUND 2013-2014
 
But its cetainly is a true 4th generation fighter that will enter service as ACM Major indicated in 2010-2011. Despite all the constant jibes that it will nver see the light of day on this forum.

thats like in 2 years? will LCA meet basic IAF ASR in that limited time? remeber india is suppose to be seeking help from foreigners.. i dough the 2011 time frame. this is starting to become indian military top brass as well as DRDO officals pathological lying habit to satisfy indian ego. remeber what DRDO was saying about Arjunk back in early 2000? that IN will have 120+ arjunks by the end of 2008... lol..

The single biggest advantage of LCA over JF17 is this

The infrastructure that built the LCA ie the wind tunnels, the flight simulators the work shops, the engineers the scientists are all in place to move on to the next project.
how is that a advantage? you mean JF-17 was tested in a bedroom with celling fan? JF-17 does not have simulators? does not have work shops?
ok my challange to you.. find me the names of these super brain "scientists" who designed LCA from scratch?

the answer is LCA was never designed in INDIA just like the HF-24, Dhruv, Arjunk, tata motors, and the list goes on.. DRDO is a credit choor! they stole credit from other european russian isreali and american firms who were the actual designers of these projects which indians bloodly claim to be "indeginous"! :P

Those projects include a Tech demonstrator for MCA and beyond that unmanned combat vehicles in the future.
IS MCA even a indian design? or are u guys just blindly swalloing what ever DRDO or the media is telling u to?
 
i am impressed by the knowledge some of the people here!
i cant win this battle for i cant match the likes of you in this area...my sources are not insiders...i retract from my comments...but since i have studied Radar tech...i will tell you why the LCA would score over the JF-17...theres a basic funda that you people would surely know of...that more the amount of carbon composites(non-metal insulators)...the lesser would be the RCS....cus only metals reflect back the em waves(microwaves of the radar)...so as LCA incorporates almost 50% carbon composites in it's frame...it's RCS would definitely be smaller as 50%of the incident radar beam would get absorbed....so the already small LCA would appear smaller on the radar screen...
jammers do not provide stealth.
heh?
you dont know what Radar jammers are?
israelis manufacture the world's best electronic warfare equipment.
the radar jammer distorts the incident radar beam and renders a huge part of the beam unusable.
 
i am impressed by the knowledge some of the people here!
i cant win this battle for i cant match the likes of you in this area...my sources are not insiders...i retract from my comments...but since i have studied Radar tech...i will tell you why the LCA would score over the JF-17...theres a basic funda that you people would surely know of...that more the amount of carbon composites(non-metal insulators)...the lesser would be the RCS....cus only metals reflect back the em waves(microwaves of the radar)...so as LCA incorporates almost 50% carbon composites in it's frame...it's RCS would definitely be smaller as 50%of the incident radar beam would get absorbed....so the already small LCA would appear smaller on the radar screen...

Not necessarily.

RCS is defined by the amount of waves that would be reflected to the source originating the waves. In general , a sphere has the worst RCS since whatever the angle, some of the waves would be reflected right back. A rectangle on the other hand would have a high RCS if and only if the emitting radar is directly in front of it...from all other angles it will have the best RCS because radar waves behave like right rays i.e. angle of incidence = angle of reflection.

What all that means, is that the RCS and especially the frontal RCS depends upon the shape, some critical joints and their angles on the aircraft. Most planes, including the JF-17, use advanced carbon composites in these critical areas because of both strength and LO. While the rest of the body of JF-17 is currently made out of alluminium alloys, they do not affect the RCS in any significant manner but rather have to do with the lifetime, weight and to some extent strength of the airframe.

The point here is that LCA using carbon composites would add to its light weight (which it is not...its overweight by 1.5 tons) and lifetime of the aircraft since metal fatique is worse than that of composites. However, both the LCA and the JF-17 use carbon composites in critical areas both because of strength and LO...therefore your assumption of all composites equals LO doesn't add up.

We do not know the RCS of either LCA or JF-17 but correlating the amount of composites with RCS is baseless. Moreover, having a direct relationship of 50% composites = 50% 'absorbed' waves is nothing but laughable. While composites are bad reflectors as compared to metals, they are by no means 'absorbers' of waves.


heh?
you dont know what Radar jammers are?
israelis manufacture the world's best electronic warfare equipment.
the radar jammer distorts the incident radar beam and renders a huge part of the beam unusable.

lol

I know what Radar jammers are....they are exactly what its name implies i.e jammers. They do not add any stealth whatsoever to the airframe of an aircraft.

Do not confuse yourself with LO ( low observability), stealth and electronic counter-measures. They are different things.
Besides, jammers are add-ons that can be added to any aircraft.
 
In response to Pari

Fundamentals of Stealth Design

The following article was written by Alan Brown, who retired as Director of Engineering at Lockheed Corporate Headquarters in 1991. He is generally regarded as one of the 'founding fathers' of stealth, or low observable technology. He served for several years as director of low observables technology at Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. in Marietta, Ga. From 1978 to 1982, he was the program manager and chief engineer for the F-117 stealth fighter aircraft and had been active in stealth programs since 1975. This article first appeared in 1992. Design for low observability, and specifically for low radar cross section (RCS), began almost as soon as radar was invented. The predominantly wooden deHavilland Mosquito was one of the first aircraft to be designed with this capability in mind. Against World War II radar systems, that approach was fairly successful, but it would not be appropriate today. First, wood and, by extension, composite materials, are not transparent to radar, although they may be less reflective than metal; and second, the degree to which they are transparent merely amplifies the components that are normally hidden by the outer skin. These include engines, fuel, avionics packages, electrical and hydraulic circuits, and people.


In the late 1950s, radar absorbing materials were incorporated into the design of otherwise conventionally designed aircraft. These materials had two purposes: to reduce the aircraft cross section against specific threats, and to isolate multiple antennas on aircraft to prevent cross talk. The Lockheed U-2 reconnaissance airplane is an example in this category. By the 1960s, sufficient analytical knowledge had disseminated into the design community that the gross effects of different shapes and components could be assessed. It was quickly realized that a flat plate at right angles to an impinging radar wave has a very large radar signal, and a cavity, similarly located, also has a large return. Thus, the inlet and exhaust systems of a jet aircraft would be expected to be dominant contributors to radar cross section in the nose on and tail on viewing directions, and the vertical tail dominates the side on signature. Airplanes could now be designed with appropriate shaping and materials to reduce their radar cross sections, but as good numerical design procedures were not available, it was unlikely that a completely balanced design would result In other words, there was always likely to be a component that dominated the return in a particular direction. This was the era of the Lockheed SR-71 'Blackbird'.

Ten years later, numerical methods were developed that allowed a quantitative assessment of contributions from different parts of a body. It was thus possible to design an aircraft with a balanced radar cross section and to minimize the return from dominant scatterers. This approach led to the design of the Lockheed F-117A and Northrop B-2 stealth aircraft. Over the past 15 years [now 25] there has been continuous improvement in both analytical and experimental methods, particularly with respect to integration of shaping and materials. At the same time, the counter stealth faction is developing an increasing understanding of its requirements, forcing the stealth community into another round of improvements. The message is, that with all the dramatic improvements of the last two decades, there is little evidence of levelling off in capability. This article, consequently, must be seen only as a snapshot in time.

Radar Cross Section Fundamentals

There are two basic approaches to passive radar cross section reduction: shaping to minimize backscatter, and coating for energy absorption and cancellation. Both of these approaches have to be used coherently in aircraft design to achieve the required low observable levels over the appropriate frequency range in the electromagnetic spectrum.


Shaping

There is a tremendous advantage to positioning surfaces so that the radar wave strikes them at close to tangential angles and far from right angles to edges, as will now be illustrated. To a first approximation, when the diameter of a sphere is significantly larger than the radar wavelength, its radar cross section is equal to its geometric frontal area. The return of a one-square-meter sphere is compared to that from a one-meter-square plate at different look angles. One case to consider is a rotation of the plate from normal incidence to a shallow angle, with the radar beam at right angles to a pair of edges. The other is with the radar beam at 45 degrees to the edges. The frequency is selected so that the wavelength is about 1/10 of the length of the plate, in this case very typical of acquisition radars on surface to air missile systems. At normal incidence, the flat plate acts like a mirror, and its return is 30 decibels (dB) above (or 1,000 times) the return from the sphere. If we now rotate the plate about one edge so that the edge is always normal to the incoming wave, we find that the cross section drops by a factor of 1,000, equal to that of the sphere, when the look angle reaches 30 degrees off normal to the plate. As the angle is increased, the locus of maxima falls by about another factor Of 50, for a total change of 50,000 from the normal look angle. Now if you go back to the normal incidence case and rotate the plate about a diagonal relative to the incoming wave, there is a remarkable difference. In this case, the cross section drops by 30 dB when the plate is only eight degrees off normal, and drops another 40 dB by the time the plate is at a shallow angle to the incoming radar beam. This is a total change in radar cross section of 10,000,000!

From this, it would seem that it is fairly easy to decrease the radar cross section substantially by merely avoiding obviously high-return shapes and attitude angles. However, multiple-reflection cases have not yet been looked at, which change the situation considerably. It is fairly obvious that energy aimed into a long, narrow, closed cavity, which is a perfect reflector internally, will bounce back in the general direction of its source. Furthermore, the shape of the cavity downstream of the entrance clearly does not influence this conclusion. However, the energy reflected from a straight duct will be reflected in one or two bounces, while that from a curved duct will require four or five bounces. It can be imagined that with a little skill, the number of bounces can be increased significantly without sacrificing aerodynamic performance. For example, a cavity might be designed with a high-cross-sectional aspect ratio to maximize the length-to-height ratio. If we can attenuate the signal to some extent with each bounce, then clearly there is a significant advantage to a multi-bounce design. The SR-71 inlet follows these design practices.

However, there is a little more to the story than just the so called ray tracing approach. When energy strikes a plate that is smooth compared to wavelength, it does not reflect totally in the optical approximation sense, i.e., the energy is not confined to a reflected wave at a complementary angle to the incoming wave. The radiated energy, in fact, takes a pattern like a typical reflected wave structure. The width of the main forward scattered spike is proportional to the ratio of the wavelength to the dimension of the radiating surface, as are the magnitudes of the secondary and tertiary spikes. The classical optical approximation applies when this ratio approaches zero. Thus, the backscatter - the energy radiated directly back to the transmitter increases as the wavelength goes up, or the frequency decreases. When designing a cavity for minimum return, it is important to balance the forward scatter associated with ray tracing with the backscatter from interactions with the first surfaces. Clearly, an accurate calculation of the total energy returned to the transmitter is very complicated, and generally has to be done on a supercomputer.


Coatings and Absorbers

It is fairly clear that although surface alignment is very important for external surfaces and inlet and exhaust edges, the return from the inside of a cavity is heavily dependent on attenuating materials. It is noted that the radar-frequency range of interest covers between two and three orders of magnitude. Permeability and dielectric constant are two properties that are closely associated with the effectivity of an attenuating material. They both vary considerably with frequency in different ways for different materials. Also, for a coating to be effective, it should have a thickness that is close to a quarter wavelength at the frequency of interest.


High Temperature Coatings

Reduction of radar cross section of engine nozzles is also very important, and is complicated by high material temperatures. The electromagnetic design requirements for coatings are not different from those for low temperatures, but structural integrity is a much bigger issue.


Jet Wakes

The driver determining radar return from a jet wake is the ionization present. Return from resistive particles, such as carbon, is seldom a significant factor. It Is important in calculating the return from an ionized wake to use nonequilibrium mathematics, particularly for medium and high altitude cases. The very strong ion density dependency on maximum gas temperature quickly leads to the conclusion that the radar return from the jet wake of an engine running in dry power is insignificant, while that from an afterburning wake could be dominant.


Component Design

When the basic aircraft signature is reduced to a very low level, detail design becomes very important. Access panel and door edges, for example, have the potential to be major contributors to radar cross section unless measures are taken to suppress them. Based on the discussion of simple flat plates, it is clear that it is generally unsatisfactory to have a door edge at right angles to the direction of flight. This would result in a noticeable signal in a nose on aspect. Thus, conventional rectangular doors and access panels are unacceptable. The solution is not only to sweep the panel edges, but to align those edges with other major edges on the aircraft. The pilot's head, complete with helmet, is a major source of radar return. It is augmented by the bounce path returns associated with internal bulkheads and frame members. The solution is to design the cockpit so that its external shape conforms to good low radar cross section design rules, and then plate the glass with a film similar to that used for temperature control in commercial buildings. Here, the requirements are more stringent: it should pass at least 85% of the visible energy and reflect essentially all of the radar energy. At the same time, a pilot would prefer not to have noticeable instrument-panel reflection during night flying. On an unstable, fly by wire aircraft, it is extremely important to have redundant sources of aerodynamic data. These must be very accurate with respect to flow direction, and they must operate ice free at all times. Static and total pressure probes have been used, but they clearly represent compromises with stealth requirements. Several quite different techniques are in various stages of development. On board antennas and radar systems are a major potential source of high radar visibility for two reasons. One is that it is obviously difficult to hide something that is designed to transmit with very high efficiency, so the so called in band radar cross section is liable to be significant. The other is that even if this problem is solved satisfactorily, the energy emitted by these systems can normally be readily detected. The work being done to reduce these signatures cannot be described here.


Infrared Radiation

There are two significant sources of infrared radiation from air breathing propulsion systems: hot parts and jet wakes. The fundamental variables available for reducing radiation are temperature and emissivity, and the basic tool available is line of sight masking. Recently some interesting progress has been made in directed energy, particularly for multiple bounce situations, but that subject will not be discussed further here. Emissivity can be a double edged sword, particularly inside a duct. While a low emissivity surface will reduce the emitted energy, it will also enhance reflected energy that may be coming from a hotter internal region. Thus, a careful optimization must be made to determine the preferred emissivity pattern inside a jet engine exhaust pipe. This pattern must be played against the frequency range available to detectors, which typically covers a band from one to 12 microns. The short wavelengths are particularly effective at high temperatures, while the long wavelengths are most effective at typical ambient atmospheric temperatures. The required emissivity pattern as a function of both frequency and spatial dispersion having been determined, the next issue is how to make materials that fit the bill. The first inclination of the infrared coating designer is to throw some metal flakes into a transparent binder. Coming up with a transparent binder over the frequency range of interest is not easy, and the radar coating man probably won't like the effects of the metal particles on his favorite observable. The next move is usually to come up with a multi layer material, where the same cancellation approach that was discussed earlier regarding radar suppressant coatings is used. The dimensions now are in angstroms rather than millimeters.

The big push at present is in moving from metal layers in the films to metal oxides for radar cross section compatibility. Getting the required performance as a function of frequency is not easy, and it is a significant feat to get down to an emissivity of 0.1, particularly over a sustained frequency range. Thus, the biggest practical ratio of emissivities is liable to be one order of magnitude. Everyone can recognize that all of this discussion is meaningless if engines continue to deposit carbon (one of the highest emissivity materials known) on duct walls. For the infrared coating to be effective, it is not sufficient to have a very low particulate ratio in the engine exhaust, but to have one that is essentially zero. Carbon buildup on hot engine parts is a cumulative situation, and there are very few bright, shiny parts inside exhaust nozzles after a number of hours of operation. For this reason alone, it is likely that emissivity control will predominantly be employed on surfaces other than those exposed to engine exhaust gases, i.e., inlets and aircraft external parts. The other available variable is temperature. This, in principle, gives a great deal more opportunity for radiation reduction than emissivity, because of the large exponential dependence. The general equation for emitted radiation is that it varies with the product of emissivity and temperature to the fourth power. However, this is a great simplification, because it does not account for the frequency shift of radiation with temperature. In the frequency range at which most simple detectors work (one to five microns), and at typical hot-metal temperatures, the exponential dependency will be typically near eight rather than four, and so at a particular frequency corresponding to a specific detector, the radiation will be proportional to the product of the emissivity and temperature to the eighth power. It is fairly clear that a small reduction in temperature can have a much greater effect than any reasonably anticipated reduction in emissivity.

The third approach is masking. This is clearly much easier to do when the majority of the power is taken off by the turbine, as in a propjet or helicopter application, than when the jet provides the basic propulsive force. The former community has been using this approach to infrared suppression for many years, but it is only recently that the jet-propulsion crowd has tackled this problem. The Lockheed F 117A and the Northrop B 2 both use a similar approach of masking to prevent any hot parts being visible in the lower hemisphere. In summary, infrared radiation should be tackled by a combination of temperature reduction and masking, although there is no point in doing these past the point where the hot parts are no longer the dominant terms in the radiation equation. The main body of the airplane has its own radiation, heavily dependent on speed and altitude, and the jet plume can be a most significant factor, particularly in afterburning operation. Strong cooperation between engine and airframe manufacturers in the early stages of design is extremely important. The choice of engine bypass ratio, for example, should not be made solely on the basis of performance, but on a combination of that and survivability for maximum system effectiveness. The jet-wake radiation follows the same laws as the engine hot parts, a very strong dependency on temperature and a multiplicative factor of emissivity. Air has a very low emissivity, carbon particles have a high broadband emissivity, and water vapour emits in very specific bands. Infrared seekers have mixed feelings about water vapour wavelengths, because, while they help in locating jet plumes, they hinder in terms of the general attenuation due to moisture content in the atmosphere. There is no reason, however, why smart seekers shouldn't be able to make an instant decision about whether conditions are favourable for using water-vapour bands for detection.

Reference: Stealth design of airplanes / stealth aircraft

Another good article here http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~gpollock...orizons of United States Stealth Aircraft.htm
 
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Mean_bird

please stop giving factual over dose to our delusional indian friends and :lol: paritosh is gettin served!

this killed me :rofl:

-but since i have studied Radar tech...i will tell you why the LCA would score over the JF-17
-LCA 50% composit body = 50% stealthy :tsk::rofl:
 
Mean_bird

please stop giving factual over dose to our delusional indian friends and :lol: paritosh is gettin served!

this killed me :rofl:

-but since i have studied Radar tech...i will tell you why the LCA would score over the JF-17
-LCA 50% composit body = 50% stealthy :tsk::rofl:
any electronics engineer would study Radar somewhere in his/her degree.
it's not a show-off...but just that i am aware of the Radar fundamentals... and it's not that whatever i have posted is anyway wrong or incorrect.
@ all
this forum is a good place to add-on to one's knowledge...although whatever we're discussing is sprawled all across the net...
are you disagreeing with the elaborate use of carbon composites not being a contributory factor in reducing the RCS?

somebody is arguing that jammers cant contribute to stealth as they are just an electronic confinement technique...so you are agreeing to it being a contributing factor to the reduction of the RCS...but since it is not an inherent part of the design they cant be taken into account...well partly correct...but what i am saying is that...with the size+composite+a non-canard delta design(canards increase the RCS) comibned with an ew device like a good radar jammer would contibute to the overall stealth...where am i wrong in this?
lets keep the posts small shall we?
 
somebody is arguing that jammers cant contribute to stealth as they are just an electronic confinement technique...so you are agreeing to it being a contributing factor to the reduction of the RCS...but since it is not an inherent part of the design they cant be taken into account...well partly correct...but what i am saying is that...with the size+composite+a non-canard delta design(canards increase the RCS) comibned with an ew device like a good radar jammer would contibute to the overall stealth...where am i wrong in this?
lets keep the posts small shall we?

You are wrong because jamming does not reduce RCS unless it is actively cancelling out the incoming radiowaves, and active cancellation is so difficult that it is easier to make F-22. Radar works by sending out radio-waves, stealth is supposed to stop those radio-waves bouncing off your jet and back to the enemy. How can emitting more radiowaves (jamming) stop the enemy detecting you?
Jamming might stop enemy radar tracking you accurately and locking missiles on you, that is the point of jamming. But the latest radars and missiles are designed to counter jammers anyway.

with the size+composite+a non-canard delta design(canards increase the RCS)
First you say LCA is stealthy because it is made of 50% composites, then you say canards increase RCS. Why don't you just make the canards out of composites like the rest of the aircraft so that they are stealthy too? :lol: Contradicting yourself doesn't help your argument.

lets keep the posts small shall we?
How about we just keep the posts factual?
 
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