JF-17 "Extremely close" to the MIG-29: Mikhail Pogosyan

[TaimiKhan]

Well when people say JF17 is better than F16 without telling which F16 I will assume latest block 60. So please give version numbers as well.
About SU30 and MRCA I am not an expert neither that is topic of thread.

Well Sir, it may have skipped your attention but in the JF-17 threads it had been stated numerous times about the specific Blks of F-16s and the individual sectors in which both are inferior and superior.

And the reason for comparisons has been due to the reason, the F-16 Blk 15s with PAF are its elite fighters, thus comparisons were done with it, to see what we are getting compared to the elite fighter aircraft we have, as JF-17 can not be compared with A-5s, F-7P 7 PGs or the Mirage 3 & 5s, as its way ahead of these.

Thus the natural comparison would be between the next best and that would be the Blk 15 F-16s of PAF, not from rest of the world.

All the above mentioned things have been repeatedly mentioned many times and in many threads, so that is why members become offensive as only Indian members come up with such remarks and not Pakistani members, as they have gone through the JF-17 threads and know what is being talked about.

As whichever Indian member when comes on the JF-17 threads, we have to hear and deal with similar kind of remarks and questions, even old members do that too.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Is the JF-17 better than the F-16? May be, experienced F-5 aggressor pilots have consistently beaten F-16 pilots in a dogfight. The F-16's agility and superior turn rates have caused many less experienced pilots to become disoriented or worse loose consciousness while performing aggressive maneuvers in a fight.

Another astounding fact, before the Raptor arrived on the scene the F-18 was the most feared aircraft in US inventory. USAF pilots dreaded going up against the F-18 in WVR or BVR. While on paper the F-18 appears to be poorly endowed it has superb 'care free' handling characteristics. The F-18's flight-control computers, it's aerodynamic efficiency when combined with a engine that allows rapid unrestricted throttle across the full range of available power from idle to full after burner. While the F-16 or the MIG-29 can easily push the pilot over his or her physical limits; the F-18 intuitive handling allows the pilot to push the limits without the fear of loosing control.

So, I have this to say to my Indian friends and others who like to look at paper specifications and jump to conclusions. The JF-17 looks good, it may be better than the F-16 but I reserve judgement until I hear from an experienced JF-17 pilot especially one that converted from an F-16 to JF-17.

Thanks for your nice clarification, people when talk about which F-16 forget to mention that we pakistani members talk with regard to our PAF's early F-16 Blk 15s, which are our best fighters before the arrival of the Blk 52s.

When we talk about JF-17 Vs F-16, its the PAF F-16s of Blk 15 variant which we got in early 80s. We are not talking about other Blks or stuff like that.

JF-17 has been beating the PAF Blk 15 F-16s in dog fights and i can assure you about that, believing it or not is upto you. Plus, JF-17 has some good and superior features when compared to the early 80s F-16s, newer Blk 52s are not being compared.

 

[SQ8]

@Muse and Taimi while you have no problem when people ask question about things India buy why are you aggressive when we are asking questions or put our POV. I am not an expert so my questions might not be that techical, does that mean I cannot ask question. Someone said JF17 is better than F16 hence better than Mig29 and I want to know in what aspects it is better than F16? Radar does it have AESA? How about BVR? EW suit? Etc. Please help this civilian. I want to add that I feel JF17 is good plane but not convinced it is better than F16 and MIG29. China is neither ahead of US nor Russia in Aeronautical engineering. Hopefully people with less knowledge can ask simple questions without being threatened.

It is better than the current F-16 B-15 series flown by Pakistan..
The Mig-29... already has had quite a few reviews by western pilots.. find them and read those... instead of showing sarcasm and being all smart alec.
How did you come to the conclusion about that China is still behind?
Oh.. sorry.. its a new player.. is that it??
So ipso facto next time you make a sensible post.. Ill still think you have crappy thoughts compared to someone with near to 5000..
Give me a good reason why the Chinese are BeeHind..
Considering they started a little late.. the way they are doing things now.. testing.. making aircraft.. the Russians.. and the Americans.. have another thing coming.

Im not exactly sure.. but Ive come to the conclusion that put an Indian and Pakistani together.. give the Indian a Honda and the Pakistani a Rolls.. The Indian will still be going .. " That.. is useless. .. Iyee am talling you.. It is made bye hand.. itta is falty. Now you see my Honda is made by Japani robuts.. Just you think it.. Robut precision.. and hand.. no..no.. I have better"

 

[dbc]

i can assure you about that, believing it or not is upto you. Plus, JF-17 has some good and superior features when compared to the early 80s F-16s, newer Blk 52s are not being compared.

I believe it, but unless the circumstances around the engagement and the ROE is known a conclusion is not possible.

 

[ptldM3]

Out of the thousands of MIG 21 made, probably more crashed in Soviet union but no one got to know of them because of Iron Curtain.

I am not going to say that IAF is so inefficient that only they had such large crashes.

There was an Indian artical claiming the Soviets had 5 times less Mig-21 crashes. Soviet pilots never lacked in trainers, nor did they have to settle for sub par spares, and Soviet technicians never neglected maintenance.

After the fall of soviet union many of them left for USA, so you cannot compare USA Aeronautics or any engineering with Russian.

What a joke, Boeing has a facility in Russia. At this facility Russian engineer design parts for Boeing aircraft.

Look what they have right now.....T-50 thats still way off. USA has been playing with stealth since like 60s. Lockheed Martin, Boeing, General Dynamics have no parallel either in China or Russia.

And the Russians have been playing with stealth since 1957 this was done at a location named institute 108, one of the people working at this facility was Peter Ufimtsev, the same man that created the formula for stealth. Ufimtsev's formula made it to the Americans, in turn they were able to create the F-117, American's themselves including a CIA officer stated that because of Ufimtsev's formula the F-117 was possible.

Right now the US has the most experience in stealth technology. However, Russia has an intimate understanding of stealth, and dispite popular beleife the pak-fa is not Russia's first attemp at stealth, Russia has several UCAV programs, this is one of them:



This is not photoshop or a fanboy fairytale, this is the real thing, notice the vehical is a true stealth, there is no comprimise the designers even removed the vertical stabalizers, things such as engines are also hiden to reduce IR emmissions, so clearly Russia knows what it's doing.

Russia also has build stealth ships, and although a ship has nothing to do with aviation it still is a platform to test a structures geometry against radar, it also prompted the incorporation of RAM.

Speaking of RAM Russia has a long history in developing RAM and if you are partial to the fact the Russian engineer examined the F-117 wreckage than there should be no doubt about Russia's ability to produce a LO platform, remember, if Russian engineers examined the F-117 they not only ran chemical analysis tests on radar absorbent material but also on the alloys used, and even the special radar coating on the canopy.

If you want to disregard Russia's history in LO technology and say that the pak-fa is Russia's first attempt at stealth than fine, if you want to make an argument that the pak-fa will not be a good LO platform than that too is fine, but remember, the F-117 was America's first attempt at stealth and this was back in the 1970's before supercomputers and metamaterial, but even without that technology America managed to create a damn good LO aircraft.

@ IndianRabbit!

If SU30MKI of India is so superior .. why is India trying to procure 126 of other types including F16.

Come on, use your thinking cap, the 126 fighters will eventually phase out older aircraft. Moreover, the MRCA contenders will have a different role than the SU-30MKI.

 

[TaimiKhan]

The question shouldn't be whether JF17 is close to Mig29 ..The question should be what would make JF17 compete with Mig 29. I can very well safely say that JF17 offers attractive capabilities with a affordable price. A rag tag african militia would look no further where the Generals are only interested in buying military products to boost their ego and keep it in reserve. However ignoring those nations , lets say a serious nation comes along to buy JF17 -

Well i do believe, Egypt which has shown serious interest in getting JF-17s is not some rag tag African country, rather it is a country with very high-tech western platforms, and they showing interest in JF-17 would not be just due to price, rather something else too.

So JF-17 is not gonna be just getting interest from some rag tag African militia led countries, whose air force personnel may even not be good enough trained to handle JF-17 kind of aircraft or they may get the degraded platform, meaning not the ones which are with PAF or the hi-tech versions.

A vanilla JF17 (Block 1) is rumored to cost between 17-20 Million a piece (a figure thrown around in sinodefence). Now lets say you add all the goodies on the plane -- to make it a truly revered platform . For example - Aesa radar (selex no doubt) , MAWS , Advanced EW suite , IRST , recce pods ,etc....Pakistani's currently call this Block 2 JF17. Now should we consider the price would remain the same ? After adding all the goodies is it safe to say that price would be in the range of 25 - 30 million a piece (I am being fairly conservative) ? Now this is a Mig 29 territory --

Now the question that needs to be asked to ourselves are -- Will a nation prefer to buy a souped up JF17 ( a new fighter) or will nation buy Mig 29's which has years of operational service ? Furthermore it would be extremely prudent to think that by the time Block 2 of JF17 comes out -- Mig 29/35 would be the same, it would offer definetly better capabilities at that time.

Last question -- I asked this before also , but i didnt receive a convincing answer -- but i believe that is understandable for lack of information.

How can JF17 be so cheap ? A J10 is rumored to cost between 40-45 million dollars (sinodefence figure)....A J10 is single engined fighter , it shares practically the same avionics with JF17 -- infact based on the JF17 thread, its said that it is JF17 which is the test bed for avionics for J10 -- so if anything JF17's avionics are more advanced. Then why is the difference in price so high ? What additional capabilities J10 offers visa vi JF17 ? Shoudnt JF17 be a direct competitor to J10 instead of Mig29 hysteria ?

I have got some answers like J10 has composites and it uses AL engines and the high price is to compensate the R&D process...and i dont think that explains this high increase in price, i am not looking for an answer, i dont think internet warriors have access to these information -- this just a food for thought !!

Ok so now as for the price, well i believe we have not seen any export related official price by either the Chinese or from the Pakistanis.

The 17-20Mln is the price which has been told for the ones which are being bought by PAF, so this price has been assumed to be the export price by people without keeping in mind that this price tag is for Pakistan which is a financial partner in the program, its not the export price for other countries.

Even the last contract for 42 JF-17s was for 800Mln $$$s, giving you a 19+Mln $$ per piece price tag, though we don't know what is involved in the 800Mln price tag, just the fighter aircraft or some weapons also. My guess would be no weapons except for some WVR missiles.

So 19Mln for PAF, definitely would be more for export customers, depending on the specification they order and what can be procured and also the development costs, as PAF price tag does not has the development cost included.

And as for J-10s, the 40Mln price tag is not supported by anything official. If you have source, do let me know, official source not the sino defence source.

Here as per one of the pilot of J-10 aerobatic team, the J-10 is costing 28Mln dollar to the Chinese Air Force. So if its 28Mln to China, export price would be somewhere around 35-40Mln, adding to it the profit and other expenses price tag.

So if you go by the above facts and figures, the JF-17 costs to PAF 19Mln, while J-10 costs to China for about 28Mln, a 9-10Mln $$ price difference which is very understandable by looking at the size of both aircraft, time taken to manufacture, material used, double priced engine of J-10 and other goodies.

Hope you would have gotten your long sought answer to the query with regard to price difference between JF-17 & J-10, which is not 20Mln $$, rather 9-10Mln $$. Do remember J-10 is 2-3 tonnes or even may be more heavier when compared to JF-17, thus engine price and material used make up the major cost difference between both the planes.

J-10s price source told by a J-10 pilot who happens to be the Divisional Commander of J-10 equipped fighter division. Each Division has 3 Regiments, each regiment equipped with 3 Sqds.

China air force woos allies with J-10 fighter jet | Reuters

 

[air marshal]

TaimiKhan, Nice DP Sir.

 

[TaimiKhan]

I believe it, but unless the circumstances around the engagement and the ROE is known a conclusion is not possible.

Well i will try to get in detail info, but JF-17 Vs F-16s had been tested thoroughly by the PAF guys in their evaluations and even now they do it for training purposes.

I am not talking about just one aerial mock dog fight, these results came after extensive engagements were conducted, thus PAF would have used different scenarios, ROEs and situations to know the vulnerabilities of JF-17, its pros and cons in comparison to one of the best aerial dog fighter of the world. As after extensive tests, PAF will know about JF-17 and how to use it in battle after having it tested against the best PAF has.

So don't worry about ROEs, PAF tested both platforms against each other professionally as it can.

 

[desiman]

Did you guys read his title?

"......Russian high quality jets...."


really?


Such high quality that only other nations can dream of....talk about MIG 21, MIG23, MIG27,MIG29 and SU30 and their deadly crashes.


Not to mention Sukhoi crashing jets at almost every airshow...

The MIG21remains one of the most successful jets to be ever produced, no Chinese jet even comes close. If you stretch the limits of any machine its bound to fail, I rather fly a Russian jet than a Chinese. The SU-30 still remain by far the best jet in South Asia, so I would be careful about what I say if I were you.

 

[Guynextdoor]

Well i will try to get in detail info, but JF-17 Vs F-16s had been tested thoroughly by the PAF guys in their evaluations and even now they do it for training purposes.

I am not talking about just one aerial mock dog fight, these results came after extensive engagements were conducted, thus PAF would have used different scenarios, ROEs and situations to know the vulnerabilities of JF-17, its pros and cons in comparison to one of the best aerial dog fighter of the world. As after extensive tests, PAF will know about JF-17 and how to use it in battle after having it tested against the best PAF has.

So don't worry about ROEs, PAF tested both platforms against each other professionally as it can.

Sorry dude I find it difficult to believe. Jets like the F16, the sheer extent of wrk and thinking that has gone behind them....the cash, R&D and understanding that backs them... as log as they're in service they'll lead the pack. simple as that. if not anything else look at the % of composites in modern jets like that with JF 17. Last time i checked your FBW isn't fully mature right? the f16's FBW was mature.....twenty/ thirty years ago..

 

[TaimiKhan]

It is better than the current F-16 B-15 series flown by Pakistan..
The Mig-29... already has had quite a few reviews by western pilots.. find them and read those... instead of showing sarcasm and being all smart alec.
How did you come to the conclusion about that China is still behind?
Oh.. sorry.. its a new player.. is that it??
So ipso facto next time you make a sensible post.. Ill still think you have crappy thoughts compared to someone with near to 5000..
Give me a good reason why the Chinese are BeeHind..
Considering they started a little late.. the way they are doing things now.. testing.. making aircraft.. the Russians.. and the Americans.. have another thing coming.

Im not exactly sure.. but Ive come to the conclusion that put an Indian and Pakistani together.. give the Indian a Honda and the Pakistani a Rolls.. The Indian will still be going .. " That.. is useless. .. Iyee am talling you.. It is made bye hand.. itta is falty. Now you see my Honda is made by Japani robuts.. Just you think it.. Robut precision.. and hand.. no..no.. I have better"

 

[Kompromat]

TaimiKhan, Nice DP Sir.

But he didn't thanked me for Providing it

 

[TaimiKhan]

Sorry dude I find it difficult to believe. Jets like the F16, the sheer extent of wrk and thinking that has gone behind them....the cash, R&D and understanding that backs them... as log as they're in service they'll lead the pack. simple as that. if not anything else look at the % of composites in modern jets like that with JF 17. Last time i checked your FBW isn't fully mature right? the f16's FBW was mature.....twenty/ thirty years ago..

Not another one.

Who is talking about quality of the material used, composites used or R&D costs.

We are talking about simple, old fashioned mock dog fights, where these is no HMS, no radar or other stuff. Simple dog fights where maneuverability counts, JF-17 is superior in maneuverability section when compared to our F-16s, simple thing not very complicated.

So what if its FBW system is 3 decades old and mature, JF-17 is flying also with FBW for years now and has been thoroughly tested and matured to an extent where operational induction in PAF has taken place after it was fully found to be reliable as much as the F-16 is reliable.

Plzz if you don't know the ABC, don't derail the thread.

 

[TaimiKhan]

But he didn't thanked me for Providing it

thanks a lot Sir, i had been since long waiting to change my DP with something awesome as its been 1 & 1/2 year since i had the old one, & you provided with another awesomeone.

Now thanked.

 

[Kompromat]

thanks a lot Sir, i had been since long waiting to change my DP with something awesome as its been 1 & 1/2 year since i had the old one, & you provided with another awesomeone.

Now thanked.

That was just a joke sir , i have many nice JFT pictures and pics from Red and Green Flag exercise.