Featured JF-17 Emerged As The Star of Swift Retort

[Armchair]

If Pak must go to war, it must be prepared and ready
Ready to meet the challenge, ready to fight
Who is Pak fighting?
India.
Is Pak armed forces ready to take on India if a "limited" war begins?
That is the crucial question.
PAF's strategy has been to keep a small force of "quality"
This is a gamble given Lancaster's Square
PA's strategy has been the same.
PN is barely comparable to IN.

What we are seeing now -
Pak rising up from a long age of slumber
Rearming at a pace not seen before
Rising out of the ashes like a Phoenix
Will Pak rethink its doctrine
Or stick to what it has done in the past?

No one knows. But we can all hope for the best.

 

[crankthatskunk]

IT was not cowardice by PAF, they were eager, willing and very much capable of doing much more than that, they were just following orders from the government, which again was not due to cowardice.

Now it is the politicians fault!! This is one of the worst tame excuse I have heard.

 

[litman]

If Pak must go to war, it must be prepared and read
Read to meet the challenge, ready to fight
Who is Pak fighting?
India.
Is Pak armed forces ready to take on India if a "limited" war begins?
That is the crucial question.
PAF's strategy has been to keep a small force of "quality"
This is a gamble given Lancaster's Square
PA's strategy has been the same.
PN is barely comparable to IN.

What we are seeing now -
Pak rising up from a long age of slumber
Rearming at a pace not seen before
Rising out of the ashes like a Phoenix
Will Pak rethink its doctrine
Or stick to what it has done in the past?

No one knows. But we can all hope for the best.

pakistan's strategy is simply defensive. deny india to get a large chunk of its territory and to cause them maximum damage. for deep strikes pakistan will use missiles. the international pressure will make india to halt its offensive but if india still has the will and the capability to over run our defences and take a large chunk of our territory( which is not very likely as pak's conventional forces are not that weak) then "boom". ham to dobay hain sanam tumhain be lay dobain gay.

 

[Thorough Pro]

You need to understand how states operate.
The military is nothing more than an extension of political power, a tool, an aggressive and intimidating tool to achieve political objectives. Military leadership is answerable to political leadership, that is where they get guidance/instructions on its use.

Now it is the politicians fault!! This is one of the worst tame excuse I have heard.

 

[LeGenD]

Hi,

What a B S---. There will be no usage of nuc weapons by pakistan. The US will neuter them even before pakistanis start to take action---.

That nuc threat has long evaporated Mr. Baloch---. Trying finding something else to take a stand on---.

The USA has mapped out every location---it is now a matter of when they decide to take them out---.

Bro,

Why would USA take its chances with Pakistan for another country including Inda? This is a post in poor taste.

USA will do nothing unless Pakistan threaten American interests to significant extent. Pakistan should do no such thing - simple.

 

[Figaro]

Bro,

Why would USA take its chances with Pakistan for another country including Inda? This is a post in poor taste.

USA will do nothing unless Pakistan threaten American interests to significant extent. Pakistan should do no such thing - simple.

I mean it is possible though. In 1969, the US threatened to retaliate with nuclear weapons against the USSR if it nuked China. Note China was both an enemy of the US and USSR at the time. I definitely think the US would intervene to prevent nuclear weapons from being thrown by either side.

 

[LeGenD]

Yup. If that was so easy. U r taking about 25 to 30 most guarded places in Pakiatan.

U can woeship USA but your USA got himiliated in Afghanistan and now begging for safe package.

This does not answer his post in any capacity.

People think that Afghanistan is representative of what Americans can do in a WAR proper? Like seriously?

Afghanistan was a COIN operation in large part and also an attempt to politically reform a country. Afghanistan's environment also enabled testing of new kind of weapon systems and military concepts from time-to-time. This is all.

True FIREPOWER of Americans is RESERVED for something really BIG; full-scale WAR with a nuclear armed state for instance. Let us hope it never comes down to this in [our] case, or with any other country. This is utter madness.

I mean it is possible though. In 1969, the US threatened to retaliate with nuclear weapons against the USSR if it nuked China. Note China was both an enemy of the US and USSR at the time. I definitely think the US would intervene to prevent nuclear weapons from being thrown by either side.

Friend,

I do believe that the international community including USA will deter both Pakistan and India from taking it too far but through diplomatic channels at most. This is good for both in a way.

Exchanging blows with Pakistan for India? USA does not have a DEFENSE PACT with India.

Good leaders strive for prosperity and peace - always.

 

[Xone]

@If Pak must go to war, it must be prepared and ready,
Pakistan has no choice but to be ready,
We have suffered in Past so mistake now,
we are doing our best whatever in means to overcome the odds
all our arms intend to protect us from whatsoever happens
@will Pak rethink its doctrine
Pakistan's doctrine is simple
deny your rival an edge over you,
Be it large , powerful, whatsoever.
Pakistan will find ingenuously a simple way to negate its enemy superiority.
this is what Pakistan can do, hope for the best, prepare for the worst.
we are not a warmongering people, we want to live in peace without being bullied by others.
Rest assured, no power can undo Pakistan. if someone tries he will suffer the very same consequences himself.f

 

[Khanate]

Good to have you back. @Windjammer

 

[The Accountant]

This does not answer his post in any capacity.

People think that Afghanistan is representative of what Americans can do in a WAR proper? Like seriously?

Afghanistan was a COIN operation in large part and also an attempt to politically reform a country. Afghanistan's environment also enabled testing of new kind of weapon systems and military concepts from time-to-time. This is all.

True FIREPOWER of Americans is RESERVED for something really BIG; full-scale WAR with a nuclear armed state for instance. Let us hope it never comes down to this in [our] case, or with any other country. This is utter madness.


Friend,

I do believe that the international community including USA will deter both Pakistan and India from taking it too far but through diplomatic channels at most. This is good for both in a way.

Exchanging blows with Pakistan for India? USA does not have a DEFENSE PACT with India.

Good leaders strive for prosperity and peace - always.

Friend MK is wrong here. Agreed that afghanistan is COIN but if they failed to identify and take out leaders of taliban in 17 years despite investing hundreds of billions. How can they take out 25 to 30 places similtaneously which are not even confirmed.

Do u realize that there has to be no mistake in its execution and everything has to be dome with 100% accuracy otherwise all the US bases within radius of 2500 kms including Israel will be in serious risk of anhiliation.

What @MastanKhan trying to portray is that OBL type of operation can be done for 150 plus nuclear weapons of Pakistan. Which is impossible.

It wasnt about a full scale war with US. USA cant engage in a full scale with Iran which is a non nuclear country and has an outdated airforce. How can they take on Pakistan without any repcussions ?

I agree we cannot win but we have capabilities to inflict such a damage to any country in the world that they cannot engage in a full scale war with Pakistan. There is no second question about this capability.

 

[R Wing]

Someone must have been trying to impress you. I hope he isn't Haqqeeqat TV guy . Always stick to official statement in such matters.

No, he's a serving Brig in the ISI.

Information in armed forces is on need to know bases and there is hardly anyone who knows the complete picture, also, people in the armed forces are human and like to gossip which must be the case with your contact. I can tell you will complete authority that there was no other pilot caught that day.

I agree. Despite his position, he was likely just sharing internal gossip.

 

[The Terminator]

o yes. WW3 . and who will enjoy the out come of this WW3. north america, europe, russia, china, pak, india, middle east all will be destroyed . about 5 billion world population will be either killed or they cease to exist as human beings good for nothing. no humanity , no civilization. no religion. the only aim of the survivors will be to survive by stealing, scavanging, killing etc. that leaves behind africa, australia, south east asia and south america and due to changes in global climate agriculture in those areas will also be effected and they may also face starvation. who will be the ultimate winner of this WW3??? No body.
if we keep religious escatalogies aside there are 0 chances of WW3 .the world has plenty of fanatics but for starting WW3 and MAD you need people 100 times more fanatic then hitler and modi.
there are many people who say that israel will survive the war and will become the ruling state in the world. but what are the chances that israel will come out unscathed out of the total destruction of the world. almost 0. israel is a small part of the same earth where we all are living. if all other regions will be destryed so will be the israel. it is so small that only a few nukes can turn all of it into rubble. and climate change will also make them starve to death.

That's pretty much a sweeping statement lacking any kind of details. All your "fanatic" requirements refer to only a single minute aspect of war ie nuclear. Minus that aspect there is every possibility to wage wars, start and fight and end WW3 quite successfully. Nuclear weapons are the biggest bluff of the century, no one used it except by US who were already victorious in that war and nuclear attack was just a real time test and a quick end to war.

The WW3 would be pretty similar to the previous ones but with some fancy new high Tech weapons. And I did mention that WW3 could be at third level of this conflict if the the winners and looser aren't settled in the first two rounds thats the trade and cold War then a couple of isolated near peer powers wars that could eventually ignite the 3rd round, ie ww3.

No one except US and Russia possess nuclear weapons in quantities of thousands, even then if hypothetically one of them is comprehensively defeated and occupied even (hitler+modi+Trump) x1000 fanatic person in the office won't consider MAD or a devastating strategic nuclear retaliation against the other one. Because it's always a 100 times better to survive and fight another day then dying aimlessly along with whole of your neighborhood.

History of wars, rise and fall of powers have been as much old as the existence of human race. Whenever a global hegemonic power rises and challenges the established or declining one there is bound to be a war. History is full of those accounts and every preceding war had been more deadlier and bloodier than the previous one.

Recently mighty Soviet Union broke into tiny pieces, they had every means to destroy the whole planet in rage of their defeat but they didn't. So kindly stop bluffing every weapon is just a tool including the nuclear ones too as long as they serve the larger geopolitical purpose, they are the tools worth to keep in the tool bag. Just like Chinese which are undoubtedly an advanced race, used the clubs rapped with barbed wires in 21st century because they served their geopolitical interests.

 

[The Accountant]

o yes. WW3 . and who will enjoy the out come of this WW3. north america, europe, russia, china, pak, india, middle east all will be destroyed . about 5 billion world population will be either killed or they cease to exist as human beings good for nothing. no humanity , no civilization. no religion. the only aim of the survivors will be to survive by stealing, scavanging, killing etc. that leaves behind africa, australia, south east asia and south america and due to changes in global climate agriculture in those areas will also be effected and they may also face starvation. who will be the ultimate winner of this WW3??? No body.
if we keep religious escatalogies aside there are 0 chances of WW3 .the world has plenty of fanatics but for starting WW3 and MAD you need people 100 times more fanatic then hitler and modi.
there are many people who say that israel will survive the war and will become the ruling state in the world. but what are the chances that israel will come out unscathed out of the total destruction of the world. almost 0. israel is a small part of the same earth where we all are living. if all other regions will be destryed so will be the israel. it is so small that only a few nukes can turn all of it into rubble. and climate change will also make them starve to death.

I guess world war 3 will happen in middle east infact it is already started. There are no country in Middle east with the nukes and the only country with the nukes that can come to aid for middle east is Pakistan but Pakistan will never use nukes unless it is for its own survival.

Russia and USA are fighting in Syria.
China is poking in US interest in middle east.

This world war is different from the previous ones. It will be more with proxies with middle east as the battle ground. Soon you will see KSA and Iran engaged in war where China and USA backing the two sites and we might see a replica of Israel but in a much more fierce way.

However, its just a wild guess and opinion so anyone can disagree with me.

 

[araz]

Great secrecy indeed. They put the plaque of the kills, including SU 30 s at an Airbase.
They are telling the world we had a Su 30s kill.



You are wasting your time, like we have wasted since Feb 2019.
Pakistan is the only country, despite attacked by the enemy with huge bombs dropped on its territory proper, claims of 350 killed. Still went over the border, just to slap its enemy and said, "naughty child don't do it again".
Claim of 350 dead had turn out to be false, but it wasn't because of lack of efforts or planning on India's part. Something, the objectors for maximum response from Pakistan keep forgetting.

The arguments presented and cowardice by PAF that day is beggar's belief.



Oh this is great, just great. So PAF was also worried about India's clout in the world that day , and "measured" their response accordingly.

"Aren't you confirming" my allegations of "Cowardice"!!

I think you are entitled to an opinion and we have an opinion contrary to that. Let us agree to disagree and move on. I have seen this debate going round and round with no outcome.
Amongst the sahaba of our Rasool Allah SAW was a person about whom he SAWsaid. "Even if there are 2 in a jamaat do not make him the leader of it". The same sahabiRA in the fight with Musailma Kaddab, when he was cocealed in a garden with high walls, got some sahaba to chuck him over the wall and fought and managed to open the doors of the garden and the Muslim party won that battle although Musailma escaped.
Now there will always be 2 opinions. One would say he was brave beyond belief and the other would say he put himself through unnecessary risk and so the move was fool hardy. Yet you have the hadeeth of Rasool Allah SAW about himRA.
We always live in shades of grey rather than black and white. You can argue as to whether there is more white than black or more black than white but the debate becomes irrelevant as it remains a matter of perception.
None of us are aware of the true circumstances in which the decisions were made and who made them. What went on in their mind and how they perceived the decision.
One can always counterargue that if downing 9 planes had led to a war, in which Naouzo Billah Pakistan had suffered major losses or lost, everyone would stand up and say what a stupid decision it was. Even without war contravention of norms of engagement if it led to FATF blacklisting or declaration of the state as a terrorist state, would your thoughts still have been the same.
My Hadi SAW whenever given a choice chose a path of peace with minimal blood shed.sulahe Hudaibiyah saw Omar RA having a full blown argument with Rasool Allah SAW. Yet Allah Azza waJal called it a clear victory.
I am merely quoting that which I know and follow. Your thoughts may remain different and that is respected by everyone.
Kind regards
A

 

[The Terminator]

Whoever talking about eliminating all possible IAF assets that were locked on in Feb 2019 by PAF should also consider the decades old defensive policy of our top military brass. According to ex ISI chief apart from a few wars or skirmishes, Pakistan's Armed forces never wanted to entirely shift the status quo on either side of the LOC. Whoever thinks that Pakistan's armed forces really wished to liberate the Kashmir or hit India as strongly as possible where it hurts the most during relatively peace times lives in a fools paradise. You may call it weakness, lack of determination, cowardice or high command doesn't have balls to take that roller-coaster ride of risks, it doesn't matter. But India in its illusion of power cunningly altered the whole kashmir's status quo by constitutionally annexing it directly under the control of their capital.

So the Kashmiri people's resentment after Kargil Op and Musharraf taking over is quite self explanatory. The seriousness of the preceding Govts about Kashmir can be depicted by the person they made in charge of Kashmir commetty, our beloved Maulana diesel whose family DNA is full of love for India and hatred of 47 partition.

Our Feb19 PAF offensive was also under severe influence of that defensive mentality, it was an offensive Op serving the defensive outcomes. Our high command clearly delivered its message and capabilities to the Indian side and let them have every opportunity of face saving. That's why Pakistan released the pilot immediately to give India another point for chest thumping. I think all members here are mature enough to acknowledge that it's way above the pay grade of our PM Khan to decide about the fate of captured Abhinandan.

On the other hand China, unlike Pakistan, till now never gave India a single chance of face saving to Modi Sarkar on recent conflict. Only the past year's incedents presents a crystal clear image of the whole power dynamics in the region.

So kindly stop thinking childishly. And why did you forgot about the guided munitions PAF trashed in the trees when it could hit their high value military installations too. And crying about only a few more planes as missed opportunity that day.

I just hope this time whenever engagement happens there is clarity of resolve in completely knocking IAF at least to the point where they no longer can participate in any short intensive conflict. So
1. Strike with such a stunning blow that IAF is rendered useless in confidence, equipment, moral and will to fight. And no cover up no media ploy is able to cover the incompetence of their armed forces..
2. Surprise the enemy with introducing completely new and out of the manual book. They did classic job in surprising the enemy, but if the end result was to avoid war then it was bad strategy on behalf of higher command. Maybe next they be careful showing hands and having said that I hope they went in with 50% of capacity of what they have.
3. Target RAFALE because at this moment that's the parrot which holds the heart of the enemy. They invested in that "Raphale hota" financially and emotionally as well as propaganda tool.
4. Interlink the air operations to political outcome with some productive outcome on ground so that we don't keep wasting resources and no ground gained.
Chinese example is classic but since we don't enjoy such luxury on the our front but still deep operations with either political or economic objectives rather than just moral of enemy forces. The reason is very clear from what we have witnessed since feb 27 , propaganda machine at full display to turn a battle defeat into victory so the moral aspect will take some time when you dealing with this brainwashed nation.
5. Exert pressure in air on ground and at sea what 27th did show us that Indians are unable to tackle complicated and complex operations in one area at this "Moment" then its very hard for them to respond along entire front.
6. Diversify the equipment so Indians keep dealing with or keep guessing and are unable to keep up. Some equipment we can get just to divert the enemy attention or confuse them.
7. Most importantly "This time no need to hold back at all" because you can't give space or time to enemy because it will be occupied quickly.
We wasted many major opportunities
1965
Kargil
Feb 27
In all instances we showed our hand but couldn't initiate a result on ground and all good work well good for moral boosting but not intented Target (liberation of Kashmir) not achieved.
We had clear target in Afghanistan and clarity of mind and look what clarity and urgency can do.
Stalemate should not be next objective but achieve a strategic victory rather than tactical.

With due respect the scenario is the same with India. It didn't worried about the consequences on 26th.
More reasons, Pakistan would have known that India wouldn't be able to retaliate.

Where did I say that we should have used nuclear!!
I said , like India did, we should have called their bluff and showed our mussels.

I just laugh when I hear excuses from Pakistanis for not shooting down of all 9 locked jets of IAF.
When you have nuclear power, you don't use it, but show your strength.
Pakistanis don't even do it against the Afghans. Despite countless incursions in to Pakistan, sending trained terrorists in to Pakistan and killing Pakistanis. How long this is going on!!
Which other nuclear state would have tolerated this!!!
Exactly. Give whatever name you want to cowardice, at the end of the day it is cowardice. Period.



Well, what I will say is bring it on. Why you didn't after 27th Feb!!
Why Modi has to give the excuse of Rafale!!

That is the message I and @MastanKhan tried to convey for over a year now.
The day Pakistan started to act as a power it is, India would learn quickly, like it learned from Chinese in recent months.

This was a big mistake...one has to be bold and brave during combat

Indians need a hard hit to bring them into senses. Had Pakistan knock down all 9 planes on that eventful day, Indians would have been better behaving like a sensible person. Presently they are looking for an opportunity to avenge for 27th humiliation. They understand only one language, and that is that of power.

The 7 locks Pak got on IAF should of been shot down but PAF has given them
another chance to learn from their mistakes and come back stronger.

They even released Abhinandhan so he can have another chance to try
and bomb Pakistan again. Just imagine if a Pakistani pilot was shot down
in India, would they release him? check the history.

The Professional in your name means , you are a pilot or an officer of a sort!!
Pilot confirmed that there was a Su 30's kill!!

The reasons , they didn't go for all kill for all 9 locked jets. Feeling overtly generous to their enemy. Not causing too much damage to property or lives. Ever so thoughtful is Pakistani army.

While they were doing that, the Indians who already used heavy spice bombs and still claimed that they killed 350 Pakistanis.

See the difference between the approach!!

What makes me laugh is damn excuses. 70 years of excuses.

Wasay, this is the time to rise and shine. Show leadership. IK kinda disappointed many when abhinone-done was released so quick.