JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[PakAlp]

There is a lot 'will be', 'will not' and 'we will' in what you wrote. What a pity there is no will in you and many of our compatriots.

Lol. I don't represent paf so cannot say anything for definite.

 

[CriticalThought]

Disclaimer: This is just my "feeling" for what happens.
We as a nation consistently expect miracles in every domain. Considering the amount of manpower and money invested into Azm (very small) I would be very very very shocked if PAC can produce anything that flies, let alone a J35 spec plane. It's not that we are incapable. It's that there needs to be "across the board" buy-in for something like Azm because it is certainly much much more complicated than a nuclear bomb (for which we did need across the board buy-in). So what I mean is that it can't be a couple of hundred guys doing some CFD and expect to have a FGFA flying in 7 years. But this is a the JF-17 Block 3 thread so I am digressing.

Again my "gut feel" is that the JF-17 block 3 order hasn't been capped to make money for Azm, but for off-the-shelf buys. I don't see any massive injections into Azm. We would know that through massive hiring if that actually happened.

Take a look at what the master says about the number of people needed:

Kelly Johnson's 14 Rules and Practices

Kelly Johnson's 14 Rules and Practices

www.lockheedmartin.com

 

[m52k85]

@Deino

That's clearly a ws13 man.

View attachment 596237

Do you still stick by this?

 

[Deino]

@Deino

That's clearly a ws13 man.

And you recognise this on what?

 

[JamD]

Take a look at what the master says about the number of people needed:

Kelly Johnson's 14 Rules and Practices

Kelly Johnson's 14 Rules and Practices

www.lockheedmartin.com

While I have great respect for Kelly Johnson and his work, I do not agree that his insights are directly applicable to a place like PAC. A very very different time and place. Azm is supposed to birth an aerospace ecosystem, not run a highly specialized and secretive high-end R&D group.

 

[CriticalThought]

While I have great respect for Kelly Johnson and his work, I do not agree that his insights are directly applicable to a place like PAC. A very very different time and place. Azm is supposed to birth an aerospace ecosystem, not run a highly specialized and secretive high-end R&D group.

But why not? Treat Azm as a highly specialized, high-end R&D group (in terms of Pakistan's current capabilities). Set the target of medium weight JF-17 NG. Create small, enabled teams of capable engineers to work on various aspects. Try to replicate Kelly Johnson's success.

 

[S A L M A N.]

Disclaimer: This is just my "feeling" for what happens.
We as a nation consistently expect miracles in every domain. Considering the amount of manpower and money invested into Azm (very small) I would be very very very shocked if PAC can produce anything that flies, let alone a J35 spec plane. It's not that we are incapable. It's that there needs to be "across the board" buy-in for something like Azm because it is certainly much much more complicated than a nuclear bomb (for which we did need across the board buy-in). So what I mean is that it can't be a couple of hundred guys doing some CFD and expect to have a FGFA flying in 7 years. But this is a the JF-17 Block 3 thread so I am digressing.

Again my "gut feel" is that the JF-17 block 3 order hasn't been capped to make money for Azm, but for off-the-shelf buys. I don't see any massive injections into Azm. We would know that through massive hiring if that actually happened.

Fully agreed.
If you ask me, I honestly feel that Azm is winding down to some extent. The energy and momentum which characterized the early days during Sohail Aman's tenure is not visible now, specially with the current chief. Now, obviously, I have no insider knowledge or any concrete evidence to corroborate this.
However, I am going by what has essentially been the norm in Pakistan. High profile projects are never institutionalized - they just serve to further an individual's own goals and objectives. Now there is no evidence to suggest that this has been the case in the PAF with Azm, but can the PAF be expected to be any different than the nation which it belongs to?
This is turning out to be more of a philosophical question.

Anyhow, going by what we can assess - the Azm MALE UAV project turned out to be an anti-climax for a majority of people here on PDF who were probably expecting a system to bypass the Reaper/Global Hawk/Anka/Raptor/etc.
It is my assumption that there is a real possibility of Azm (at least the NGFA part) slowly winding down and dying out in the near future. The idea of an 'Aviation City' to be a hub of Pakistan's aerospace industry (in a highly secure and restricted zone such as Kamra) was a dream at best. You don't build centers of excellence in isolation and in such a paranoid/security centric environment.

As for the human resource question - I agree that there has been no massive hiring. Having known some of the human resource already working there, I have to sadly say that they do not represent the best minds of the country who are worthy of working on such a critical national project. Hiring procedures are ancient and ripe with old-world biases and pathetic sarkari preferences. Even if they do manage to get Azm off the drawing board and onto the flight lines, I doubt that it will be something out of this world.

 

[araz]

Because block 2 doesn’t have the new MAWS, the new HUD, the Longer wing-tip rails, the new hardpoint, the inlet on the base of the tail etc etc, theres many ways to tell apart a block 2 and a block 3.

To add replacement platforms will be from the current block not the older ones.
Regards
A

 

[Dazzler]

And you recognise this on what?

That's vandetta man
You dug out a two year old post just to prove me wrong and get satisfaction out of it.
Very moderator like behavior.

Do you still stick by this?

Yes. And Huitong agrees with me.

The latest report (August 2021) suggested that an indigenous WS-13X engine has been tested successfully onboard a JF-17 Block III prototype, making it more competitive on the international market.

 

[The Eagle]

Since I am blocked from responding on the JF-17 Block 3 main thread and JF-17, I decided to open up my own thread.

And the very first thing I'd like to discuss is that those new pics of JF-17 being shared on the main thread show absolutely no new changes at all. Yes, due to camera position maybe there are small changes we cannot perceive, but there seems to be active disinformation going on. It's just a bit laughable that somebody would try to arrange such a campaign given the increased knowledge and awareness we have these days.

Finally, that front view of JF-17 with wide-angle, holographic HUD, it is not taken on the same day as the first Block 3 pics we saw. The first pics have an overcast sky whereas this frontal pic has a bright sky. There are three externally visible features of Block 3 we know of:

1. Holographic HUD
2. Inlet on base of tail.
3. Slightly pulled back inlets.

Numbers 2 and 3 cannot be determined on this frontal pic. So let me throw another idea: what if this pic is an overhauled earlier block? It's just a wild guess and could be completely wrong.

Try to reach GHQ and discuss for any ban. Opening Your Thread is not a proper approach as duplicate threads are not allowed. Your ban from this thread must have a reason.

Regards

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

While I have great respect for Kelly Johnson and his work, I do not agree that his insights are directly applicable to a place like PAC. A very very different time and place. Azm is supposed to birth an aerospace ecosystem, not run a highly specialized and secretive high-end R&D group.

But why not? Treat Azm as a highly specialized, high-end R&D group (in terms of Pakistan's current capabilities). Set the target of medium weight JF-17 NG. Create small, enabled teams of capable engineers to work on various aspects. Try to replicate Kelly Johnson's success.

The issue with AvRID/PAC -- and Pakistani R&D in general -- isn't technical or administrative, but policy. Yes, there are layers of issues in terms of talent, ability, organization, etc, but they all stem from bad top-policy level decisions that result in silo's, lack of horizontal collaboration, lack of sustained R&D investment, and a spate of redundant imports. We know that individual Pakistanis can do a lot, but the organizational structure at the top is holding us back from working to our actual potential. Unfortunately, those countries that do have their homes in order are inviting our people in to help them whereas our R&D homes are uninviting and/or uninspiring.

 

[Bilal.]

The issue with AvRID/PAC -- and Pakistani R&D in general -- isn't technical or administrative, but policy. Yes, there are layers of issues in terms of talent, ability, organization, etc, but they all stem from bad top-policy level decisions that result in silo's, lack of horizontal collaboration, lack of sustained R&D investment, and a spate of redundant imports. We know that individual Pakistanis can do a lot, but the organizational structure at the top is holding us back from working to our actual potential. Unfortunately, those countries that do have their homes in order are inviting our people in to help them whereas our R&D homes are uninviting and/or uninspiring.

Policy and an over all strategy. We don’t seem to have a strategic plan that leverages existing capabilities by creating synergies and sets course for the future. Hence, we see a lot of duplication, compartmentalization and lack of an overall clear roadmap of where we want to be in 5, 10, 15 years.

At the moment our defence development and production plan seem very reactive and ad hoc.

 

[messiach]

I have only pictures at my disposal. What else is there? Its logical deduction i have drawn.

Pardon, but that's all?? No image to prove, no explanation? Only a short sentence? ... so well, so disappointing.

Fairly accurate. Its called FTMS on FC1, provides the heat sink capability for AESA related units better than ACS.

Gentlemen

The quantity of fuel doesn't remain constant during the flight;
As the aircraft burns fuel, the weight decreases.

Which should automatically tell you, that fuel can only be stored in areas where
the CG can be kept constant or be compensated easily by control surfaces.

The clever bit would be, if fuel was stored towards the nose of the aircraft,
that tank would be used first (Take off ), thus as soon as the aircraft is high enough,
the weight dynamics would be right. @messiach

 

[messiach]

mean chord length is just length of aerofoil section - look at some photographs. Nothing difficult.

And how can one estimate the mean chord length from a frontal view? I understand a top view is needed for that.

 

[Tempest II]

View attachment 772986

My first time to notice the wings are twisted