JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[Reichmarshal]

N she is supposedly one of our top defence correspondents.....no wonder

 

[Metal 0-1]

Ah Defence journalist. Can't find a difference between her and Random Boomer Uncle.

 

[Amavous]

Any news regarding 2 Block III JF-17s, PAC was supposed to build in 2020?

Only a couple of weeks left in 2020 and still no update. Even the wishlist crowd on this thread has gone quiet. Hopefully, something will be released by PAF on the upcoming first flight anniversary of Block III (15th Dec).

 

[denel]

Any news regarding 2 Block III JF-17s, PAC was supposed to build in 2020?

Only a couple of weeks left in 2020 and still no update. Even the wishlist crowd on this thread has gone quiet. Hopefully, something will be released by PAF on the upcoming first flight anniversary of Block III (15th Dec).

Everything is delayed.. Covid impact.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Covid impact.

TBH, it has been months since Chinese gone back to their factories. Rest of the world was under lockdown while they were busy.

 

[jedijedi]

I am aware of our short comings, no body is perfect and every country has faced losses (even america, the great superpower everyone harps on about). We came close to losing, your perception of loss is off the mark. Pakistan has the practical ability to accomplish it's objectives. Yes we have had our bad turns, everyone has had them ... Europe and its countless wars, Japan and is rise n fall, america in Nam, Afghanistan, Iraq and Somalia ... britain in Afghanistan, Las Malvinas Islands and against the Zulus.

I am not much of a Patriot, at least not in the sense everyone perceives a Patriot to be. I am a Muslim first and foremost, and to me Pakistan belongs to Islam and not the other way round. I don't delve into what you define as wildly charged argument about religion or nationalism. I study my enemy, but more importantly I study my short comings and that of my country's.

Based on what I have studied, my real life experiences, my interactions with those on the ground (professionals) and the study of the current geo-political climate, it remains factual that Pakistan has come out unscathed despite all odds. And trust me when I say this, in no uncertain terms ... the odds have been heavily stacked against us for quite sometime now.n

So what I say to the detractors of Pakistan, every word is meant with practical intent and preparation.

- Losing half the country isn't coming out unscathed
- I see the strawman of saying hey US and UK and other super powers lost too, that doesn't really explain or justify our shortcomings. We could've and should've been better than others and being less complacent would've been a good start
- Pakistan belongs to its citizens who are Muslims, Hindus, Christians among others and I would prefer not to go deeper into this argument. Bless you.

JF-17 block 3 is not a cutting edge future technology 5th Generation fighter. any prospect customer has a long list of European, American and Russian jets (SU 35, F-16 Block 70, Rafale, Grippen NG ) that are at par or even better in terms of the technology and performance which JF-17 Block 3 (on paper and web forums) is claimed to provide.

in short, restricting the export of JF-17 Block 3 is laughable and will only get a mocking thanks from other countries for not selling them our JF-17 block 3.

I get what you are trying to say but

1- Hardly any of these jets is directly competing in the same market/price bracket as JF17
2- All jets you named come with huge terms of sale as part of the agreement. Russia sold its ally China Su27s expecting China might honor at least some part of the agreement but Chinese didn't. 2 decades later, China probably has a more diverse range of flankers than Russia itself. Not saying JF17 will have unauthorized copies made, but that terms of sale and who you are selling to matters.

In my opinion JF-17s will be bought in huge quantities by number of Air Forces in very near future.

Indian YouTube defense experts are already laying groundwork to explain potentially higher sales of JF17 vs Tejas in the future. They cite the 'high composite %age' increasing Tejas initial outlay playing against it while 'cheap' Aluminum alloy construction working in favor of JF17.

Wow. You have time on your hands

Its about managing time better iykwim.

has RD-93MA delivered to China or not?

So are we sure Block 3 will have RD93MA over the 2 other likely candidates.

yeh, China literally exports a superior product in the form of the J-10CE, of which the JF-17 uses avionics derived from it

Will likely export, not exports.... last i checked.

N she is supposedly one of our top defence correspondents.....no wonder

The sad thing is our journalists aren't always experts in their field of reporting and sometimes so called experts aren't experts either.

Everything is delayed.. Covid impact.

The world at large has overcome a lot of the logistical problems caused by Covid and China probably is not behind anyone else in this respect considering it all started there and they have had the most time to adapt.

TBH, it has been months since Chinese gone back to their factories. Rest of the world was under lockdown while they were busy.

Quite possible.

Lastly, if you've accidentally reached the end of this post without losing patience, let me play the keyboard spy here for a moment. I have seen a lot of expectation recently get built around RD93MA due to a few blog articles. The few curious linked points like Russia not needing it domestically, the fact that its previous gen (RD93) is already employed by JF17 and the timeline might hint it is destined for JF17 but there are some minor points that might go in favor of a Chinese Engine. Not saying these assertions are all a 100% valid but that if WS13 turns out to be the engine for Block 3, it might not be as much of a surprise.

- Timelines quoted around RD93MA are precarious in terms of JF17 use on one hand while gloomy on the other. This engine even if it meets all its timelines will still take a while to be production ready. Integration and testing on JF17 is a huge undertaking in itself which has to follow.
- JF17 by all estimates needs a more powerful, reliable and smokeless engine with FADEC. If WS13 and RD93MA both are fairly equivalent in meeting these requirements, there are reasons why PAF might lean towards a Chinese engine. WS13 is supposed to be fairly equivalent to RD93MA if the intended requirements are achieved by designers.
- China doesn't fly JF17 so their interest is largely R&D gains + $$. China gains a lot monetarily by providing a quality engine that meets PAF requirements. China has to develop WS13 Engine anyway for its J31 which is by all likely estimates a much better funded project than JF17 and is not off the afterburner if rumors are to be believed.
- There is no (large) customer for Chinese Engines more trusted than Pakistan/PAF/JF17 for various reasons.
- China and Chengdu specifically have already integrated local engines on J10 and J20. They have the expertise so it won't be a first for them.
- All signs coming out of China suggest they are investing heavily in jet Engines, commercial and military. The WS13 engine is an old project and already rumored to have been previously tested on JF17 testbed.
- I may have overlooked it but I haven't read any news suggesting China has signed a new contract to procure RD93MA engines or (more) RD93 engines. Even if RD93 are on their way, they could still be replacements for existing JF17s.

 

[serenity]

No the JF-17 block 3 will use RD engine not WS-13 and WS-13 is quick copy of RD-33 rushed in case Russia blocked RD-93 from being used with JF-17 under Indian pressure.

Also the J-31 does not use WS-13 and will use something called WS-19. Already been in development for a long time and hints say the project wanted to develop engine performance similar to EJ200 or F414 but smaller and more fuel efficient. WS-13 is not serious project after RD-93 was allowed to Pakistan. I feel the RD-93 was allowed certainly because the WS-13 replacement was available. Even if 80% performance of RD-93 the Russian knew Pakistan and China will have no choice but fit WS-13 if they don't sell RD-93. So Russian decide to make the money and say go away to India.

WS-13 powered GJ-11 prototypes but I think that is it. It is not even the intended engine for any project when it reaches service. For example WS-13 maybe also powered FC-31 prototype. Anyway this engine is definitely finished now since all important projects for this power level will use WS-19. JF-17 however will use RD-93 because it is better than WS-13.

Real mystery is how RD-33 was copied. I think the main points were understood and WS-13 has some differences since we have Russian engines from soviet union times and modern engines. Maybe a few engine units purchased from other sources after soviet union break where many things were able to be bought like the test T-80 tanks the tank builder and PLA used to test Type 88 to 96 against.

 

[jedijedi]

No the JF-17 block 3 will use RD engine not WS-13 and WS-13 is quick copy of RD-33 rushed in case Russia blocked RD-93 from being used with JF-17 under Indian pressure.

- Most of the major breakthroughs in Chinese aviation industry have invariably started with a copy or IP theft in cases but for the WS13, it was rumored to have been a legitimate joint venture initially with Klimov.

Also the J-31 does not use WS-13 and will use something called WS-19. Already been in development for a long time and hints say the project wanted to develop engine performance similar to EJ200 or F414 but smaller and more fuel efficient.

- I am intrigued as to what your source of information is for this. Wiki didn't have anything on WS-19 until Dec 2019 and the only entry in the past 12 months added for WS-19 is that its slated to be used in (no prizes for guessing) JF17 and J31. Not saying Wiki is a supremely reliable source but at least WS-13 has a decade long stream of articles dedicated to it compared to WS-19 which is fairly new. WS-13 has always been tipped to power J31 and JF17 and now its WS-19 so are we sure they are entirely different projects and not a case of rebadging.

WS-13 powered GJ-11 prototypes but I think that is it. It is not even the intended engine for any project when it reaches service. For example WS-13 maybe also powered FC-31 prototype. Anyway this engine is definitely finished now since all important projects for this power level will use WS-19. JF-17 however will use RD-93 because it is better than WS-13.

- I am curious, if WS-19 can replace WS-13 on FC-31, what stops it from replacing WS-13 that was slated for JF-17. Again it is not to argue that block 3 will have a Chinese Engine but to understand why we are making assumptions that WS-19 cannot logically replace RD93 on JF17. My premise wasn't that WS-13 is good enough, it was that there is ample impetus for PAF/China to replace RD93.

Real mystery is how RD-33 was copied. I think the main points were understood and WS-13 has some differences since we have Russian engines from soviet union times and modern engines. Maybe a few engine units purchased from other sources after soviet union break where many things were able to be bought like the test T-80 tanks the tank builder and PLA used to test Type 88 to 96 against.

- Did Chinese not purchase RD93 to power FC31 the very first prototypes. We know China is desperately trying to master jet engine technology for its plethora of domestically produced planes, both commercial and military. If China can leapfrog many nations in automobile, construction, semiconductor/silicon tech among other sectors in the past 2 decades, what stops them from overtaking Russia in jet engine technology. If something doesn't surprise me today, its China copying stuff.

 

[Nasr]

- Losing half the country isn't coming out unscathed

As opposed to losing all of it!?!! Fighting an enemy 7 times your size, having the other half of your territory 1000 miles away and that too with your enemy in between. Plus having near 100% of your military hardware as american made, and it has been embargoed. Come on now, be reasonable.

- I see the strawman of saying hey US and UK and other super powers lost too, that doesn't really explain or justify our shortcomings. We could've and should've been better than others and being less complacent would've been a good start

Nobody is perfect, nor is any failure detrimental to our existence. Learning from our past, makes us stronger and that is what we must focus on .... learning from the errors made in the past.

- Pakistan belongs to its citizens who are Muslims, Hindus, Christians among others and I would prefer not to go deeper into this argument. .

The very constitutional basis for the creation of Pakistan, hinges on Islam. The more you avoid it, the closer you to the fate of countries such as Iraq, Syria and Libya. Those who stand firm with faith in Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah, are indestructible, and Afghanistan is the living example of that.

Bless you

I only seek Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah's blessings. From you, I seek your reasoning. I appreciate your response and respectfully disagree with it.

May Allah Subhanahu Wata'aalah guide us all toward Siraat-u-Mustaqeem, Ameen!

 

[Riz]

TBH, it has been months since Chinese gone back to their factories. Rest of the world was under lockdown while they were busy.

Thunder is about to brake delay record of Tejaa...
COVID19 ain't going anywhere So does Thunder is not arriving anytime soon

 

[Nomad40]

Ah Defence journalist. Can't find a difference between her and Random Boomer Uncle.

I'am irritated....wear a mask!

 

[Metal 0-1]

I'am irritated....wear a mask!

That's right

 

[Windjammer]

 

[Mrc]

View attachment 698603

Must b the second one.

 

[Amavous]

View attachment 698603

Image not clear enough to make any positive identification. But by judging the length of the canopy I would say it seems to be a "Bravo".