JF-17 and LCA development comparison

[Contrarian]

RIGHT. You know when you make a computer, getting the processor from Malaysia, Monitor from Indonesia, Chipset from Honkong and the Box from India...doesn't make it 'Indian Made' right??

Do you actually understand entirely as to how many companies from the West are involved in providing technology and integration to the LCA program (and pretty much all other Indian military ventures)??? If you have a doubt, let me know and I shall post a list of parts and their origination country / company for ya. That'll tell you how 'Indian Design' is your LCA (by the way, the air frame has HUGE Dessault support in it, this is JUST a basic component that everyone can see from the outside)

Also, JFT Block II (more composites and EM-E suite) and LCA are pretty much the same from a capability's standpoint. Just wanted to put the truth out there. JFT B1 may be a bit inferior as it's airframe doesn't use a lot of composites but the rest is pretty comparable to LCA. The 'digital' vs 'analogue' doesn't play a huge role in this scenario. Both planes offer decent capability and will form the lower tier.

Here's a thought for you. Why dont you post what India has developed for LCA? That way others also get to know what you really know about the program instead of handing out tripe about donated jobs and processes under you.

Since you keep ranting the same question all over the forum, let me put your mind to rest, for all Pakistan's input or contribution as you call it, the aircraft designation carries a pre-fix "J"....JF-17 aka Joint Fighter-17.....this doesn't apply when you merely contribute funds.....PAK-FA being a prime example.

As a matter of fact, India's contribution to PAK-FA is almost just as much as Pakistan's to JF-17. We do have an idea about Pakistan's manufacturing base and research and development levels in relevant fields.

What Pakistan is doing now, we have been doing over decade. Yes that includes manufacturing a plane from raw materials phase for even the Su-30MKI, building engines, etc, etc.
As i said before, the JF-17 was limited by China's technological capacity, not Pakistan's. That sentence should tell you all there is to know.

 

[Contrarian]

But builds it with a lot of time and money wastes leading to an induction of foriegn systems in Indian Services.

Very true. However if we are able to sustain it, in the longer run, it will yield to much bigger benefits. And we are slowly moving towards that.

Cheaper alternatives with similar capabilities. Most of the people here continue to focus on platforms, airforces focus on capabilities. JFT has all the goodies in the bag for a multirole fighter, Precision strike, Stand off Strike, BVR, Wild Weasle options, EW, Anti Surface etc. Name any which is not available for JFT. Only a fool would by lamborghini if all he needs is a transport to his office.

Yeah, unfortunately it doesnt work like that. All these abilities have different levels of efficiency. In the end you get what you pay for.

 

[sancho]

Nope. LCA already exceeds what JF-17 is technologically and is built using Indian designs and in India-which is not the case for JF-17.

That however doesnt matter, because its not operational. Even if it was made out of gold but still not operational, it is futile to compare.

JF-17 is available for operations today, something that is not even close for LCA and unlikely for a good long while.

P.S: Zakii you have got to be kidding me that you deleted my post in which i didnt say anything offensive at all, merely quoted the posts, yet have posts talking about brainless Indians and donated jobs stay!

Indeed, kind of confusing why this thread was created, because the outcome with the title alone was predictable, let alone which kind of members would join the rant.

 

[Secur]

actually the aircraft FC1 is derrived from is the "Project 33", development work began on this design about 1980, but it was canceled in 1986

Proof ?

Or yet another conspiracy theory on how the Chinese copied a Russian plane ?

You didn't answer my question though. Since we are discussing Tejas development in India and JF-17 development in Pakistan.

Any one? If I will see the video you won't hear me asking for the proof in future? If not, then there is no comparision between Tejas and JF-17 w.r.t. to its development . It will always be superior as we developed it ourselves in India by Indians

I did that , with an example too ... Read it again slowly and carefully ... You will find something that sort " What would the design phase be in Pakistan if it was co-developed by PAC and CAC in Chengdu ? "

Yes , that is some proof of superiority ... I hear ya !

 

[Secur]

your air frame is made in china, your engine is imported from russia, so essentially you are building avionics, control system, and assembling the finished product, right?

I take it then , the avionics , engines , control system of Tejas are made in India ?

 

[trident2010]

I did that , with an example too ... Read it again slowly and carefully ... You will find something that sort " What would the design phase be in Pakistan if it was co-developed by PAC and CAC in Chengdu ? "

Yes , that is some proof of superiority ... I hear ya !

Again you did not reply my question !! So question stays ..

"Can any learned Pakistani member show me the video footage of the design phase not assembly line of JF-17 with Pakistani engineers/scientist working on it and it should be in Pakistan not China and with not a single Chinese should be present there?"

 

[Anony]

To all the members from Pakistan, saying LCA is a failed aircraft and that JF-17 is a good one, it will be good if U can give some data why? Because I feel otherwise, that's why I am putting in few data.

Radar: LCA mk1 currently has Elta-2032 radar which is superior than Klj-7 radar.(Note:- I am not bringing AESA as it is not fully developed yet and will not enter service before 2015)

RCS: LCA's RCS is far lesser than JF-17 owing to the amount of composite used and JF-17 with all metal designed is no where near LCA.

EW suite: LCA has been integrated with indigenous designed EW suite 'Mayavi' which is there with Su-30mki.

Maneuverability: LCA due to it's low wing loading can perform all those maneuvers which is not possible for JF-17 at war scenario, since it can definitely do all those maneuver but will take longer time to do the same thus disregarded.

Airframe&Avionics: LCA's avionics has been praised upto the world standard and it's airframe too owing to all composite is superior to JF-17.


Now I have mention some of the point why LCA is better than JF-17, and waiting to see some neutral member from other side providing statistics that why JF-17 is better than LCA.NEUTRAL COMPARISON PLEASE.

 

[SBD-3]

agree that only fool would buy lamborghnini of all he needs to transport to his office, but that that fool will goto some long drive in highway once in blue moon and where that lamborghnini will give him edge.

Of course, but PAF do have one edge, It can compare its JFT's performance with at least Block 52 now (if we take out "other" options). I do remember the wording of a PAF Test pilot who was anxious to compete JFT with F-15s to see how it would perform against that. The rapid evolution (evident from both avionics as well as weapons package growth) itself testifies that PAF has shown quite an interest in keeping the bird up to date. Even somebody at Chinese fora was referring to an AVIC personnel that they , at times, become quite annoyed with PAF project team since they consistently keep pushing them for more alterations and updates.

 

[SBD-3]

They are not lamborgini they are Hummers or Land Cruisers buddy....and even a fool can understand that how much load they can transport to their office as compare to suzuki Mehran or Swift.....

The question is not about how much do you carry but 1)what do you carry? and 2)do you carry enough? A platform with some PGMs is much better than a platform with loads of dumb bombs. If the mission is a dedicated strike, why would an aircraft be carrying more to disadvantage itself when all it needs is a couple of stand off missiles. So with increased sophistication of weapons technology, the need for carrying "buffer stock" is reducing.

 

[Secur]

To all the members from Pakistan, saying LCA is a failed aircraft and that JF-17 is a good one, it will be good if U can give some data why? Because I feel otherwise, that's why I am putting in few data.

Because simply put , it isn't operational and not expected to be until 2015 of course if there are no more delays ... Even the JSF promises a lot of things but it simply ai'nt here in the first place ...

What is the maximum detection range of Elta-2032 for 5m2 targets ? ...

What is the RCS of LCA ? Nobody knows the RCS of JFT even though it is stated to be less than F16 ... The JFT also uses DSI which reduces RCS by a significant amount ... Except for reduction of weight and by a slight amount the RCS , the composites are of no other use ...

Indigenous designed EW suite is used in SU 30 MKI ? Any link ?

Wrong !

Praised by whom ? BRF ?

 

[SQ8]

Again you did not reply my question !! So question stays ..

"Can any learned Pakistani member show me the video footage of the design phase not assembly line of JF-17 with Pakistani engineers/scientist working on it and it should be in Pakistan not China and with not a single Chinese should be present there?"

That is the most idiotic question ever... because if you are expecting cinematic proof of a design phase within the chengdu offices which is one of the most sensitive areas around China(where PAF test pilots have had to display the greatest care) then you can continue to keep your doubts(since these are fuelled by your disdain of Pakistan than anythng else).

This was not a field trip where somebody would keep a camera to document "Hey Buddy, we are-a Paakistanis working heara"..
Simply ridiculous.

 

[Anony]

The electronic warfare suite is designed to enhance the survivability during deep penetration and combat. The LCA's EW suite is developed by the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) with support from the Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL). This EW suite, known as Mayavi, includes a radar warning receiver (RWR), Missile Approach Warning (MAW) system, self-protection jammer, laser warning system, and chaff/flare dispenser. In the interim, the Indian Ministry of Defense has revealed that an unspecified number of EW suites had been purchased from Israel's Elisra for the LCA prototypes.[66]
The ADA claims that a degree of stealth has been designed into the Tejas. Being very small, there is an inherent degree of visual stealth, but the airframe's use of a high degree of composites (which do not reflect radar waves), a Y-duct inlet which shields the engine compressor face from probing radar waves, and the application of radar-absorbent material (RAM) coatings are intended to minimise its susceptibility to detection and tracking by the radars of enemy fighters.

HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Secur]

In the interim, the Indian Ministry of Defense has revealed that an unspecified number of EW suites had been purchased from Israel's Elisra for the LCA prototypes.[66]

You were saying that some indigenous EW has been integrated with Tejas and more surprisingly SU 30 MKI whilst the above paragraph tells a different story ... You are still designing your Mayavi or whatever it is called , what you have bought is some Israeli system ! Read the word " Prototypes " ...

 

[Anony]

That is the most idiotic question ever... because if you are expecting cinematic proof of a design phase within the chengdu offices which is one of the most sensitive areas around China(where PAF test pilots have had to display the greatest care) then you can continue to keep your doubts(since these are fuelled by your disdain of Pakistan than anythng else).

This was not a field trip where somebody would keep a camera to document "Hey Buddy, we are-a Paakistanis working heara"..
Simply ridiculous.

This is the problem with you guys. If U have no proof to show then from where on earth do U come to know these. Does your so called sensitive Chengdu came to your house-doors to deliver the information to you.

 

[cyphercide]

Half the stuff you are talking about....was taught to you guys by the American companies like GE, etc. You guys didn't know jack about project execution till the 2000.....thanks to the donated American jobs!!! Now you are going to sound arrogant and question the world?

The SAM's you are testing....are being tested and even built by the Israelis. The so called engine manufacturing....you guys couldn't master Russian tech so you went and asked the US for it. The avionics, from Israel, Russia, France to the US....car designs were taken from Japan and then some from the UK.....Space craft.....I should THANK NASA and the European space commission and the Israelis for it. Sat's, definitely my countrymen in the US, the Brits and the Israelis.
ALL these countries are giving you design input to the product evaluation and testing. What is it that India produced? Besides the cheap (and on this forum, arrogant labor)??
You guys couldn't spell the work process engineering till the 2000. You guys did produce labor, aka, the java and .net coders but that's it. It is NOW, after 1 and a half century that you are trying to expand your horizon and doing additional stuff. Still trying.
Let's stick to the thread. It's funny to see 'I rule the world' attitude. I would love to see where you guys would be in 2012 if the US hadn't donated a quarter of its economy to help you guys get stronger against the Chinese!!!

Donated jobs from the United States? Which business school(Err...make that high school) did you pass out from?

Learn a bit about the US Entity list and the number of Indian organizations that were sanctioned by the US to even purchase IBM(American) servers, let alone transfer of technology. From there to American instrumentation piggybacking on Indian space probes and getting assistance from Indian satellite imaging for keeping an eye on your weather and storm formations....yep, we are arrogant cuz we earned it the hard way. Tough to explain to a migrant whose native country finds it hard to even manufacture automobile tyres competitively!!!

I don't like getting into a mouth off with dumbasses such as yourself but you are just asking for it, aren't you?