Japan's Abe to change post-war constitution

[jhungary]

Wrong.

Unless it's a limited skirmish where it can go either way, a serious naval conflict btw the two where each sends out all of their related naval assets (e.g. all surface ships, subs, naval aviation units, AWACS, anti-sub planes, Helos, spy sats, etc), china wins 100% without doubt, assuming no large amount of F-22 (the US)involved.

You made ONE BIG MISTAKE ON YOUR STATEMENT. You assumed soemthing...... You never assume anything in battle especially someone else's involvement. Bear in mind the US ASSUMED Chinese would not attack during Korean War and see how that get to??

Fighting a Naval war is not like what you calculated. There are many point to consider Geographical Location, Equipment, Support, Combine Service Strength, Technology, Morale and finally, luck

In Most naval battle history There are times and again the smaller force win over a larger force, just to name a few, USS Constitution Engagemen, Taffy 3 Engagement, Suez Canal during 6 days war.

There are problem on both side. On Japanese side, very apparent is their small number of force and their lack of diversity of support. Their advantage is their location (You need to remember Japanese is a Defender, as they currently coccupied the Senkakus, and odds favor defender), and they are complemented by their advance technology. not to forget strong support from American side, with or without they actually going to war with the Japanese.

The problem with China is they are sparsed deployed in North/East Region, you will not use 100% of the force to attack Japanese in the Senkakus or you will left your waterway opens. So CHinese will only fight with a fraction of the force. Also Chinese role will be attacking instead of defending, where they present their ship and their logistic as a good target before they are within range of their naval engagement. And the final disadvantages is their relative outdated navy. Yes there are new ship which are considered much much more technological but most pf the PLAN are stil lcurrently depending on their older, more outdated equipment.

Of course their tactical number is good, even if 50% strength, Chinese navy still ahead in number than the japanese counterpart.

Being a soldier for 8 years, i have never heard someone say there are 100% winning chance on a certain battle.....

JMSDF will not think like you.

They action follow task force team's work.
Atago/Kongo class are BMD role (and even flag ship role). DDH are flag ship and ASW main force. DD ship like Murasame and Takanami class are GP ship for ASW and ASuW. And Akizuki class are AAW's role for guard DDG and DDH ships. Not mention their Submarine's fleet.

China has number advantage, but PLAN must take time to gather all force for a all out war which It mean no step back and maybe lead a nuke war and the end of this world.
So If there are small and fast conflict, Japan has their advantage.

The problem is, China are fighting on Japanese home water, they have been there since 1900 and still there in 2013. And almost all naval engagement favor defender more than attacker, i would say 50:50 in this case, not a 100% on Chinese

 

[Aegis DDG]

Hey, let just ignore China mighty "troll" navy, I have a question:

Why did TRDI design DD ship (Murasame, Takanami, Akizuki) with hangar door like this!? (big door and small door)

I really don't know. I guess it is because it would reduce RCS.
Here's an video showing the interior of the Akizuki Class Destroyer.

 

[Aegis DDG]

No offence but you seem to have no clue whatsoever on what you're talking about.

1. 052C/D are not in the same class as Atago and Kongo by tonnages and they might be less advanced in some particular sub system/s. Yet looking at the most important measure of destroyers - the sheer attacking fire power & anti-satuation defence might- Atago and Kongo are no match at all.

The Type 052C (don't know know much about the D model) has an couple of AshM but tehy can be jammed by the Kongo and Atago's Electronic warfare system. These Aegis based DDG has an thick layer of defense and would have to go through EWS, Radio Frequency Jamming, Long range intercepts by BMD, Decoys and CIWS.

Radars of Atago/Kongo only have capabilities of simmultanously attacking (& defending) 4 targets from the same direction ( the theoritical max. in an ideal situation, and assuming 100% successful), and their total attack/defence fire channels are therefore limited, about 12 simmultanously in an ideal situation. 052C/D, however, have far more advanced radar systems which allow theortically unlimited satuation attack & anti-satuation defence fire channels. e.g. 052C's fire power could literally allow firing all 48 missles towards Atago/Kongo at one go. What Atago could do? Pray and pray hard.

I agree with you on the fact that the Atago and Kongo class destroyers lack offensive weapons as they were primary intended for Long distance defense of battleships such as the Matsure class frigates. But the SPY-1 Radar on these destroyers are by far more advance than PLAN's Type 052. I mean compare the CIC of the JMSDF's new DDG to the Type 052 command modules.

In fact attacking capacilities (& anti-satuation defence , too) of 052C/D, particularly D, are amongst the most powerful ones in the world, even more so than Type 45. In a one-to-one standoff, Atogo/Kongo is like sumo guy who can dodge 4 to 12 bullets max. at the same time with an assault rifle of limited range, while 052C/D is like Jackie Chen with a hand-held automatic machine gun of up to 48 bullets per sec capable of dodging bullets far more than 12 at the same time theortically.

No the Type 052C/D is not superior to the Type-45 of the Royal navy. The Sampson radar had put the USN captains to shame during an military exercise. The Sampson radar can detect an cricket ball travelling at the speed of sound (March.1) at the distance of 300KM.

That's even without mentioning the advantages in range and quality of 052C/D anti-ship missiles vís-a-vís those of Atago/Kongo.

Like I mentioned previously, the Atago/Kongo Destroyers are primarly for BMD. The role of Ship-to-Ship combat will lay on the various Frigates and smaller Destroyer of the JMSDF. Besides, the Atago/Kongo can easily be fitted with AshM.

2. heck let alone 052C/D, even let 3 Type 022 small missle boats firing 3*8= 24 C803 at the same time against 2 Atago putting together, what they can do? Pray and pray hard,

C803 is an sea-skimming CM/AshM that can be intercepted by the Atago/Kingo. That was why the destroyers were outfitted with the SM-2 Standered Missile. To defense Naval fleets and Battle-groups against missile threats.

3. your comparison of conventional subs to n-subs is apple-orange.

Even PLAN's AIP sub is noisy compared to German and Japanese diesel powered submarines

4. modern warfare is not about ww2 level ship against ship shooting maingun at each other and see who's the last man standing, but about all things. Do CVs belong to naval? Do F/A 18s belong to naval?... right, China's Navy has 100s of Su-30 MKK, JH-7, J-10A, J-11B, which could shoot easily >800 anti-ships missles at the flip of fingers. Without presence of large # of F-22A taking the air supremacy beforehand, entire naval fleet of Japan will go to the seabed in no time in a serious naval conflict against PLA navy.

The JH-7 role is similar to the Missile-boats in the SCS, to relase AshM from an degree of attack against enemy vassels. Thus it can be tracked by JMSDF SYP-1 Radar and JASDF E-3 AWACS.

5. well, when a large # of F-22 take part in the conflict, it shall become entire different matter as it signifies the start of all out war btw China and US. Then all bets will be off and it won't be a small naval conflict anymore.

Well that's all my analysis. Your free to counter-argue..

 

[Speeder 2]

^^ I thought that I had put it very straight forward already:

attacking/defending (largely refer to satuation attack & anti-satuation defence with missiles) capabilities

=//=

capabilities to detect sth.


The Sampson is capable of detecting such a tiny ball in such a long distance, great! But how about 5 such balls shooting at it from the same direction in a real peer-to-peer naval conflict? Detect them? maybe, or more unlikely (it can detect 4 balls max. from the same direction simutanously it seems) Defend against them ? Go praying! In this sense, radars of 052C/D are superior to Sampson's and waterdowned export Aegis versions of Atago/Kongo let alone Matsure.

SM-2? come again? A full league below HHQ-9, which is more akin to the incoming SM-6 level.

That's even before talking about max. fire channels allowed...


Atogo/Kongo more "advanced"? on what? more advanced like sitting in a museum as precious vases for observation only? yeah, they are well-made with good materials and cleaned daily...and? therefore "more advanced"?

as I said:

On attacking-defending capabilities, Atogo/Kongo (type 45 as well to some extend) is like a sumo guy who can dodge 4 to 12 bullets max. at the same time with an assault rifle of limited range, while 052C is more like leaner smaller Jackie Chen with a hand-held automatic machine gun of up to 48 bullets per sec capable of dodging far more than 12 bullets at the same time theortically. 052D is like with 2 such machine guns + land attack cruise missiles. Who is more advanced? Who is more deadly?

 

[Soryu]

I really don't know. I guess it is because it would reduce RCS.
Here's an video showing the interior of the Akizuki Class Destroyer.

It's not like that. RCS was about:

Both superstructure and hull have angled rather than the traditional vertical surfaces

But I just mention about hanger door! I heard from a friend is military officer in VPA that small door use for support team and drone UAV in-out door. But I rather suspect it, because JMSDF has no UAV until now and there are other smaller door for ship's crew use for in-out way on heli deck... So I want heard from Japanese.

P/S: well, some Chinese want duel-battles and Japan was sumo guy who can dodge 4 to 12 bullets max and 052C is more like leaner smaller Jackie Chen with a hand-held automatic machine gun of up to 48 bullets per second.
So I guess PLAN need Jackie Chen more than advanced navy ship...

 

[visom]

Hi everyone, first post here. Seeing half the idiotic and racist posts here makes me want to join the party.

I doubt Japan will want a war, they just don't want to be as reliant on a foreign country to defend them (incase the US has a change of heart and growing hostility between china), no one seems to mention that they have a HUGE aging population. Japan does not want to send its already diminishing young population to die in a war.

 

[PITA]

You're wrong! War is fun for everyone in the family. Especially the kids!

Welcome to the forum, bro.

 

[Soryu]

Especially for some chinese too!

Well, anyone can answer my question above!?

 

[Viet]

Hi everyone, first post here. Seeing half the idiotic and racist posts here makes me want to join the party.

I doubt Japan will want a war, they just don't want to be as reliant on a foreign country to defend them (incase the US has a change of heart and growing hostility between china), no one seems to mention that they have a HUGE aging population. Japan does not want to send its already diminishing young population to die in a war.

Welcome to the forum!

So what´s the problem? ony half of posts is idiotic and racist, so the other half is full of flowers and cheers.
No, the Japanese don´t want to invade Hawaii, no worry, time has changed. They just want some small rocks in the sea.

 

[anon45]

Hi everyone, first post here. Seeing half the idiotic and racist posts here makes me want to join the party.

I doubt Japan will want a war, they just don't want to be as reliant on a foreign country to defend them (incase the US has a change of heart and growing hostility between china), no one seems to mention that they have a HUGE aging population. Japan does not want to send its already diminishing young population to die in a war.

Welcome!

Of course no one wants it (unless you are Hong Wu), but as always it might happen anyways due to miscalculation on either sides part.

 

[PITA]

Don't listen to the doves. Everyone wants war. Just think of it as a big game of tag but with ammunition.

 

[visom]

Thanks anon45!

Pita,
Only people who want war are civilians who's never been in the army and have no family members in the military as well.

 

[sweetgrape]

I mistook "Abe" for "Ape"………………

 

[Soryu]

I mistook "Abe" for "Ape"………………

you poor...

 

[PITA]

Visom,

Perhaps but I definitely have my doubts, especially on the former. I'm sure bloodlust and pride in wanting family to serve isn't exactly unique. A generalization can't be applied to the millions who serve the military units all across the world.

Mankind has been killing for centuries. I don't doubt that everyday people, generally, do not want war but, from the point of view of the state, it has become a necessary condition. Separation of the individual and the state often gets blurred. If you linger around here long enough you'll see that mentality is quite ubiquitous.

I do not buy the Utopian narrative, just yet.

If that was a personal remark directed to me, you'd be wrong.