J-10 Will Come With T O (P) T

[TaimiKhan]

Are you serious ?

For now I am

But 2014-15 will tell or may be even earlier, with a final prototype & its pictures online

 

[Kompromat]

I would like to see a Twin tails airframe with cnards and a single engine !

 

[raveolution]

As per current situation & as per delivery schedule of 2014-15, it doesn't seems FC-20s are gonna be having western avionics, as for now not even a deal for JF-17s has been secured. So may be the first 2 Sqds are with Chinese avionics and China is doing its best to come up with avionics which can compete with the western ones.

And its not gonna be upgraded version of J-10A, rather it is gonna be the one with the DSI intakes if the design passes its flight parameters.

So Chinese Avionics will be on the J-10B. Are there any renders / pictures / artists impressions available to what the J-10B looks / would look like? Also, apart from the first 2 squadrons, have there been any further firm orders? Thanks in advance for the info.

 

[TaimiKhan]

So Chinese Avionics will be on the J-10B. Are there any renders / pictures / artists impressions available to what the J-10B looks / would look like? Also, apart from the first 2 squadrons, have there been any further firm orders? Thanks in advance for the info.

For now, this is what it may look like, but no one knows if this would be the final design or other changes take place in the design.

We even may see some other radical design.

This below is the real thing, no PSed or artists impression.

 

[Aslan]

Khan sahib after reading your comments on the DSI intakes I googled it and found the below pics, I am not acquainted with the term DSI and what's the purpose of them on the plane. Can you pleae elaborate. Thanks for your help.

This is the exact quote from the website.

It is widely speculated that Israel transferred DSI intake tech from the F-35 to China prompting the US to suspend Israel from the F-35 programme.

The same DSI tech may also find its way into the FC-1.

Will someone who is acquainted with the language in the image give me a translation of what's in there ?

Here is another pic of technicians looking into the J-10's intakes. (Looks a little stupid)

J-10 to get DSI intakes ?, page 1

I don't know if I should post the link if not then you can remove it or let me know I will do it my self.

 

[mean_bird]

Khan sahib after reading your comments on the DSI intakes I googled it and found the below pics, I am not acquainted with the term DSI and what's the purpose of them on the plane. Can you pleae elaborate. Thanks for your help.

This is the exact quote from the website.

It is widely speculated that Israel transferred DSI intake tech from the F-35 to China prompting the US to suspend Israel from the F-35 programme.

The same DSI tech may also find its way into the FC-1.

Will someone who is acquainted with the language in the image give me a translation of what's in there ?

Here is another pic of technicians looking into the J-10's intakes. (Looks a little stupid)

J-10 to get DSI intakes ?, page 1

I don't know if I should post the link if not then you can remove it or let me know I will do it my self.

The DSI picture is right, it is using that "bumps" in the intake to take care of air inflow at high speeds instead of a movable mechanism to do the same.

Israel has had nothing whatsoever to do with DSI in F-35. So the question of them "transferring" the technology is ridiculous. The only thing Israel had asked for is to use its own avionics particularly radar and jammers.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Khan sahib after reading your comments on the DSI intakes I googled it and found the below pics, I am not acquainted with the term DSI and what's the purpose of them on the plane. Can you pleae elaborate. Thanks for your help.

This is the exact quote from the website.

It is widely speculated that Israel transferred DSI intake tech from the F-35 to China prompting the US to suspend Israel from the F-35 programme.

The same DSI tech may also find its way into the FC-1.

Will someone who is acquainted with the language in the image give me a translation of what's in there ?

Here is another pic of technicians looking into the J-10's intakes. (Looks a little stupid)

J-10 to get DSI intakes ?, page 1

I don't know if I should post the link if not then you can remove it or let me know I will do it my self.

As for DSI intakes, here are the three of them with DSI intakes, the F-35, J-10B & the JF-17. If you see other planes, you will see the difference what normal intakes we see on planes and these 3 intake designs.

And as for DSI intakes technology being transferred to China by Israel, BS, as Israel has not yet gotten its hands on a F-35 and certainly not the DSI technology as Israel doesn't makes F-35s. Yesh the Israel to China transfer of Lavi fighter technology is around, Lavi on which J-10 is supposed to be designed on further.

And as for DSI here is some little info: ""DSI stands for Divertless Supersonic Intakes. The bumps seen at the intakes are litterally called Bumps. At high aircraft speeds through supersonic, the bumps work with forward-swept inlet cowls to redirect unwanted boundary layer airflow away from the inlets, essentially doing the job of heavier, more complex, and more costly approaches used by current fighters. It proved to save significant weight, reduce RCS by concealing the engine's fans which generate most of the RCS when searching from the front. It improves performances both when supersonic and subsonic. The DSI bump functions as a compression surface and creates a pressure distribution that prevents the majority of the boundary layer air from entering the inlet at speeds up to Mach 2. In essence, the DSI does away with complex and heavy mechanical systems."

Further info if still wanna read more about DSI, read the below link, it has more information:

Code One Magazine: JSF Diverterless Supersonic Inlet — July 2000

 

[Windjammer]

This PS Image seems more business like.

 

[Nahraf]

Pakistan should have another aircraft manufacturer other than Pakistan Aeronautical Complex for J-10. We have to manufacture nearly all parts of the aircraft in Pakistan. The US sanctions and now French deal on hold should be a reminder that we need our own arms industry. I do not like the name "Pakistan Aeronautical Complex" since the word "Complex" reminds of psychological disorders. Cant'we have a proper name like Pakistan Aircraft Industries ?

 

[freddiemaize]

How many of you are gonna make these sarcastic remarks ???

We know we can't hold them off with such low figure, why then so much sarcasm ????

Sry to go off topic.. You are the best MOD PDF has!! Thank you!!

 

[Frankenstein]

Anyone have a link for this source? Doesn't seem right......

TOT for 36 jets???? Is China insane?

The number will reach to 100-150

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

PAF's fc-20/f10 would have wingtip missile rail too.

 

[applesauce]

So Chinese Avionics will be on the J-10B. Are there any renders / pictures / artists impressions available to what the J-10B looks / would look like? Also, apart from the first 2 squadrons, have there been any further firm orders? Thanks in advance for the info.

as shown by the poster above the real leak pics of the J-10B has been out for a little while now however as to the electronics of the thing we can only guess for now though there some good guesses that can be made based on the externals we don't know for sure, and for the Pakistani version(FC-20) even less is known about that for now(what its configurations will be) wait 5-6 years when the Plaaf acknowledges it exists then we will know for sure(or whenever Pakistan gets its planes i suppose)

 

[Koga Ryu]

I saw this article i though shared with you guys.
Give me your analysis or you thought
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YANGCUN AIR BASE, China (Reuters) - Four Chinese J-10 fighter jets banked and sported in perfect formation in the blue skies near Tianjin on Tuesday, before executing a neat landing, their braking parachutes billowing out just in front of a viewing stand filled with military attaches.

Many of the 51 attaches, some from Africa and the Middle East, may be future customers for the Made-in-China fighter jet.

So far no other country's air force has the J-10, but China hopes the plane's manoeuverability and price can compete with the U.S. and others in sales to third countries, many of them allies through whom Beijing is courting global influence.

Ever since the early 1990s, China has been working to slim and upgrade its military into a modern fighting force. That means developing fighters for the People's Liberation Army Air Force, and also planes that others would want.

"Yes, we have been given the option of getting this aircraft, and we are studying this option," said Salman Ahsan Bokhari, the Beijing-based air attache from Pakistan, tipped as a potential bulk buyer of the J-10.

"Until this time, we haven't seen it physically flying... It's a good time for all the world's air force to know the PLA has a valuable and important aircraft flying in the skies."

For a graphic: here

Many military analysts watch the Chinese air force for clues to how it would perform in an attack on Taiwan, the self-ruled island Beijing views as a breakaway province and that the United States is obligated to defend.

For China's allies, particularly in the developing world, the issue isn't so much the Chinese forces' performance as it is the hardware itself and the diplomatic strategy behind its purchase.

"We came to see the performance of this J-10 aircraft. I think it's quite impressive but we still have to see how it compares to others in its class," said Derek Mwendaofyo, the Beijing-based defence attache for Zambia, which has historical and mining investment ties to China.

DEFENSE AT HOME, SALES OVERSEAS

At the moment, the Chinese air force itself is still short of planes, with outside analysts noting Chinese pilots often have less flying time under their belts than Western forces.

The Yangcun base, on a flat plain about two hours drive from Beijing and near to Tianjin, has a ratio of 1.2 pilots to planes, said Yan Feng, commander of the 24th division based there.

"A lot of people look at hours in the air and quality of simulators and China still lags behind," said Matthew Durnin, a Beijing-based researcher with the World Security Institute.

"More importantly, their exercises are carefully scripted and controlled from the ground, which isn't very applicable to actual combat."

But for Pakistan, the geo-political balance between China, the United States, Japan and Taiwan in Northeast Asia is less important than that of South Asia, where it is balancing the Americans' desire for an ally against the Taliban in Afganistan with China's desire for better sea access to the energy-rich Middle East.

It is negotiating with the United States to buy 14 more F-16 fighter planes, Pakistan defence officials said in March after talks aimed at reversing tempestuous ties between the allies.

"In Pakistan we have Western aircraft, French aircraft and Chinese aircraft, so we will be able to see how we can position this in," Bokhari said, referring to possible purchases of the J-10. The Alabama-trained pilot said he wanted to try flying it.

"Price-wise, this is a point which is still under discussion, the main point."

For pilots like Yan Feng, the beauty of the J-10 lies in its manoeuverability, its stability, and its integrated avionics system.

Compared to a J-7 plane, which China has already exported, the J-10 "is like an adult to a child," Yan said.

"As a pilot and a division chief, I am very proud to have J-10 aircraft."

Yan estimated a J-10 cost the PLA Air Force, which he noted is also a consumer, about 190 million yuan ($27.84 million). That's pricey compared to the $15 million-plus price tag on a U.S. F-16 fighter, a favourite of world air forces.

"I believe the vendors know how to put it across to whoever the buyer is," said K Gambo, military attache from Nigeria, who said his country might consider buying from China.

"With good bargaining the price can come down."

 

[Karakoram8 Eagle]

May it help boys


J-10: The New Cornerstone of Sino-Pakistani Defense Cooperation
Publication: China Brief Volume: 9 Issue: 25
December 16, 2009 03:46 PM Age: 14 days
By: Tarique Niazi


J-10

China and Pakistan have forged a formidable partnership in high-tech defense production. This partnership is born of their ever-deepening military and strategic cooperation that is also reflective of the burgeoning capacity of China's defense industries and the budding Sino-Pakistani defense relationship. The epitome of this bilateralism is the recent revelation that the Chinese have agreed to the sale of 36 J-10B fighter jets to Pakistan (Financial Times, November 10). The J-10 aircrafts are known to be one of the most advanced weapon systems in China’s arsenal, of which Pakistan will be the first recipient. With the delivery of 36 fighter jets, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will raise two fighting squadrons that will further sharpen its combativeness. The J-10 deal was reportedly sealed for a whopping $1.4 billion, which accounts for 70 percent of Chinese average arms sales of $2 billion a year (China Brief, July 9).

The J-10 Sale Epitomizes Strategic Alliance

The deal marks the depth of a strategic alliance between Beijing and Islamabad. Some reports suggest that Pakistan is actually seeking 150 J-10 fighter jets, which go by Chengdu Jian-10 in China and F-10 in Pakistan, for a sum of $6 billion (The Hindu, November 11). The Pakistani government, however, dismisses such reports as inflated (Financial Times, November 10). Although Pakistan has not yet made the deal public, its prime minister, Yousaf Raza Gilani, on November 23, confirmed that “his country is in talks with China for securing the J-10s” [1]. Pakistan turned to China for these aircraft in 2006 after it failed to secure the F-16s from the United States (Dawn, May 1, 2006). General Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan’s former military ruler, who negotiated the deal during his visit to China in 2006, is the real architect of this grand sale (The Hindu, November 11).

The J-10s are China’s third generation fighter aircraft that it has indigenously developed (The Hindu, November 11) and manufactured at the Chengdu Aircraft Industry (CAI). Some observers, however, believe that J-10s are China’s fourth generation aircraft. “This aircraft is a cousin to the Israeli Lavi (upon which it is based) and roughly equivalent in capabilities to the U.S. F-16C flown by several air forces around the world” (See "China’s Re-emergence as an Arms Dealer: The Return of the King?" China Brief, July 9). The J-10s started development in the mid-1980s and finally entered production for the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) about three or four years ago. Aviation experts rank them below the F-16s, the Swedish Gripen and other smaller combat aircraft (China Brief, July 9). According to a report in The Hindu (November 11), China is working on developing its fourth generation fighter jets as well. The United States, The Hindu report further claims, is the only country that possesses a fourth generation combat aircraft—the F-22s. Yet aviation experts believe the F-22s are fifth generation fighter jets. Chinese Deputy Commander of the PLAAF General He Weirong claimed that “China would operationalize its very own fourth generation aircraft in the next eight or ten years” (The Hindu, November 11). The Chinese official further claimed that the fourth generation planes would “match or exceed the capacity of similar jets in existence today” (The Hindu, November 11).

In anticipation, China is also training Pakistani fighter pilots for flying the fourth generation combat aircraft. On January 16, it delivered eight Karakoram K-8P trainer jets to Pakistan for this purpose. According to an official statement, the K-8P jets had enhanced the basic training of PAF pilots and provided a “potent platform for their smooth transition to more challenging fourth generation fighter aircraft” (The Asian Defence, January 16). The K-8P is an advanced trainer jet that has been jointly developed by China and Pakistan. It is already in service at the PAF Academy. At the handing-over ceremony for the K-8Ps, a visiting Chinese delegation as well as high-ranking PAF officers were in attendance.

China’s sale of the J-10 fighters to Pakistan, however, signals the depth of its strategic alliance with Pakistan. Pakistan will be the first country to receive the most advanced Chinese aircraft, which speaks volumes to Chinese faith in its strategic partnership with Pakistan. Defense analysts, however, believe that the sale sends an important message to the world that China’s “defense capability is growing rapidly” (Financial Times, November 10). China-Pakistan military relations spanned over 43 years, starting in 1966 when China provided Pakistan with F-6s, which were followed by the successive supply of such aircraft as FT5, A5, F-7P, F-7PG and K-8 (Jang, November 22).

These relations continue to grow with high-level exchanges in the defense sector. As recently as October of this year, Chinese Vice-Minister Chen Qiufa, administrator of China’s State Administration for Science, Technology & Industry for National Defense (SASTIND), led a delegation of Chinese defense-companies to Pakistan. He called on Prime Minister Gilani and discussed cooperation in the JF-17 Thunder Project, Al Khalid tank, F-22 frigates, Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS), and aircraft and naval ships (APP, October 17). The Chinese delegation included representatives from China's missile technology firm Poly Technologies as well as Aviation Industries Corp. of China, China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation, China Electronics Technology Group and China North Industry Corporation.

Although there is a proliferation of joint defense projects between China and Pakistan, their collaboration in aviation industry has peaked at the turn of the millennium. The mainstay of their joint defense production is the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra (Punjab), which services, assembles and manufactures fighter and trainer aircraft. The PAC is rated as the world’s third largest assembly plant. Initially, it was founded with Chinese assistance to rebuild Chinese aircraft in the PAF fleet, which included Shenyang F-6 (now retired), Nanchang A-5, F-7 combat aircraft, Shenyang FT-5 and FT-6 Jet trainer aircraft. The PAC also houses the Kamra Radar and Avionics Factory (KARF), which is meant to assemble and overhaul airborne as well as ground-based radar systems, electronics, and avionics. The KARF, which is ISO-9002 certified, has upgraded the PAF Chengdu F-7P interceptor fleet. Over time, the PAC has expanded its operation into aircraft manufacturing, and built a specialized manufacturing unit in the 1980s: The Aircraft Manufacturing Factory (AMF). The AMF got noticed in the region when it partnered with the Hongdu Aviation Industry Group of China to design, develop and coproduce the K-8 Karakoram (Hongdu JL-8), which is an advanced jet trainer. The AMF’s flagship project, however, is the Sino-Pakistani joint production and manufacture of the JF-17 Thunder aircraft, which it is producing with the Chengdu Aircraft Industry (CAI).

JF-17 Thunder Makes Over the PAF

In recent history, China and Pakistan set out for the joint production of JF-17 combat aircraft that both countries consider a substitute for U.S. F-16s. Pakistan’s indigenous manufacture of the first JF-17 (which goes by FC-1 in China) came to fruition on November 23, when Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), an arm of the Pakistan Air Force, turned it over to the PAF to the chants of “Long Live Pak-China Friendship” (The News International, November 24).

Pakistan’s Prime Minister, Pakistan Chief of Army Staff and Chinese Ambassador to Pakistan, Lou Zhaohui, were among the dignitaries who attended the handing-over ceremony. Chinese Ambassador Zhaohui, speaking on the occasion, told his audience: “China wants to further broaden the defense cooperation with Pakistan” (Jang, November 23). The PAF already has 10 JF-17s, which were produced in China, in its fleet. The JF-17 project began in 1992, under which China agreed to transfer technology for the aircraft’s joint production. The project was hampered in 1999, when Pakistan came under proliferation sanctions. It gained momentum in 2001.

On September 3, 2003, its prototype, which was manufactured in China, conducted the first test flight. The PAF claims that the JF-17s, with a glass cockpit and modern avionics, are comparable to any fighter plane (Jang, November 23). It is a lightweight combat jet, fitted with turbofan engine, advanced flight control, and the most advanced weapons delivery system. As a supersonic plane, its speed is 1.6 times the speed of its sound, and its ability to refuel midair makes it a “stand-out” (Jang, November 23). Pakistan intends to raise a squadron of JF-17s by 2010. The Chief of Air Staff of the PAF told a newspaper that JF-17s would help “replace the existing fleet of the PAF comprising F-7s, A-5s and all Mirage aircraft” (The News International, November 8). Eventually, Pakistan will have 350 JF-17s that will completely replace its ageing fleet.

Pakistan also plans to export these aircraft to developing countries for which, it says, orders have already started pouring in (Jang, November 22). China and Pakistan anticipate an annual export of 40 JF-17s to Asian, African and Middle Eastern nations [2]. At $25 million apiece, the export of 40 aircraft will fetch them $1 billion per year. There are estimates that Asia will purchase 1,000 to 1,500 aircraft over the next 15 years. In this Sino-Pakistani joint venture, Pakistan will have 58 percent of shares, while China will have 42 percent (The News International, November 25). Besides defense aviation, China and Pakistan are closely collaborating on the joint production of naval ships as well.

Chinese Frigates for the Pakistan Navy

China and Pakistan worked out a $750 million loan to help Pakistan build four F-22P frigates (The News International, September 16, 2004). In 2004, Pakistan negotiated this non-commercial (i.e. low-cost) loan with China for the joint manufacture of naval ships. China and Pakistan have since moved fast to begin work on this project. They have now expanded the original deal to build eight F22P frigates respectively at Hudong Zhonghua shipyard in Shanghai, China, and Karachi shipyard and Engineering Works (KSEW), Pakistan. The manufacturing cost of each F22P Frigate, which is an improved version of China’s original Type 053H3 Frigate, is $175 million. At this rate, the cost of eight frigates will run at about $1.4 billion.

The first Chinese-built F-22 frigate, named PNS Zulfiqar (Arabic for sword), was delivered to Pakistan on July 30 (The Nation, July 31). A month later, the ship was formally commissioned in the Pakistan Navy fleet in September. Soon after its arrival in July, the ship participated in the Pakistan Navy’s SeaSpark exercises. Of the original four frigates, three were to be built in China and one in Pakistan (Asia Times, July 11, 2007). After the delivery of PNS Zulfiqar, the remaining two ships that are being built in China are expected to be commissioned in the Pakistan Navy fleet by 2010. The fourth ship being built in Pakistan’s Karachi shipyard will be ready by 2013 (Asia Times, July 11, 2007).

The Pakistan Navy describes the F-22P frigate as a Sword Class ship that is equipped with long-range surface-to-surface missiles (SSM) and surface-to-air missiles (SAM), depth charges, torpedoes, the latest 76mm guns, a close-in-weapons system (CIWS), sensors, electronic warfare and an advanced command and control system (The Nation, July 31). The ship has a displacement of 3,000 tons and carries anti-submarine Z9EC helicopters. China has already delivered the first batch of two such helicopters to Pakistan. Although the Pakistan Navy has Sea-King helicopters for anti-submarine operations, it is now acquiring Chinese Z9ECs to enhance its operational capabilities (The Nation, July 31). In addition to building eight frigates, the Sino-Pakistan defense deal includes the upgrading of the Karachi dockyard for indigenous production of a modern surface fleet. The frigates deal is the first of its kind between China and Pakistan, which forges their two navies into a high-level collaboration for boosting their surface fleet.

Conclusion

At the turn of the millennium, China and Pakistan have diversified their defense trade into joint defense production. They have since been collaborating on the production of most advanced weapons systems, such as the JF-17s combat aircraft and F-22P Frigates. Pakistan will receive the transfer of technology for the J-10s as well. China recognizes that Pakistan is rich with human capital in the high-tech defense industry, which serves as a magnet for its investment. Both China and Pakistan look to capture wider defense export markets in Asia, Africa and the Middle East. At the same time, their growing cooperation in aviation and naval defense systems signals an important shift in Pakistan’s military doctrine that traditionally favored Army (especially ground forces) over its sister services—Navy and Air Force. In the region’s changing strategic environment, in which China has growing stakes, Pakistan has come to recognize the critical importance of air and naval defense. The China-Pakistan collaboration in aviation and naval defense amply embodies this recognition.

Notes

1. “NRO beneficiaries will be held to account.” Daily Intekhab, daily dailyintekhab.com.pk/news/news10.gif.
2. Tarique Niazi, “China-Pakistan Relations: Past, Present and Future,” A presentation made at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars on January 29, 2009.

i think you have explained it very welll....

---------- Post added at 05:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------

Any new pics of j10..?

---------- Post added at 05:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------

Any new pics of j10..?