J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

[Tipu7]

@!eon and @Tipu7. Guys please stop acting like spoilt brats. If someone has written something offensive pleaze report rather than responding in insults.
A

Yara it can't be helped.
When certain person fail to answer specific questions then he start claiming other as "kids" or "children"
Now it's not offensive, but bit irritating to expect this attitude from people on defense forum.....

 

[araz]

So basic !
Is there any need to explain difference between IAF and PAF preparations ? Kargil busted the bubble and now it's been 17 years since that and we don't see any change.
Tomorrow you go into war with your neighbor. US will provide no thing for F-16s. What else you got ?
Even today 18 block 52 are flying only under US observation. And forget to use them against India in war.

Now have look at Indian current inventory plus Rafale or Hornet/F-16 what ever they get in near future.
They have invested in PAK FA. What are Pakistan



What is requirement of PAF ? Is going out of Pakistan's borders is forbidden for them in war times ?
That also means F-16 is useless ? why they spent so much money on it ? because it's bigger than JF-17.
Defensive air force does not even exist, it's just a myth, a mind satisfaction. And in geography where Pakistan exists, it's suicidal. They have not learned any lesson from Kargil.



I don't know weather I have not clearly written it or you have comprehension problem.
I am not talking about what Chinese J-10 is right now !
I am talking about joining J-10 program in the beginning and customizing it for PAF needs. One more advantage with that size, it wouldn't be a problem to find corners for modern components. And no need to mention payload, endurance and hard point.
Forget J 10A, It's history. If you have developed block 2 in their labs with their help, they have not lost the ability to develop J 10 in their own labs equal to F-16 V. And if Pakistanis were there along with them it would be much easier and adoptable for both.



Thanks Araz for you time.

Decade is too long. I say it’s coming within five years.

Yes agree with you on financial war, rather better term would be financial terrorism. No one wants to talks or take actions against it because the top most leadership is also involved in it, and then what to say about any low level financial terrorist. I hope transferring personal furniture in PAF plan would not come under financial terror.

Out of these 120 BVR capable aircrafts please exclude F-16s. It would be better to keep yourself on safe side.

PAF and PA are totally different organizations. I admire preparations of PA but unfortunately I can’t say same for PAF.



J10 could/can be made more capable for even wider variety of weapons than JF-17. It can carry heavier weaponry in more number, heavier radar and IRST must not have to occupy a hard point.




No doubt I am also happy, at last Pakistan has put some efforts in fighter jet development. And I believed the news from PAF that JF-17 is designed to meet the needs of PAF till I started my project in carbon fiber composite materials. Technology was rather new and developing. I had tough time and had to go through even aviation industry stuff. I was totally new and even my Professor, President of the University had not much knowledge about it.

When I successfully completed my project, my first thought was why not PAF is going for composites? And then the size ? how is their requirement is so small size ? In area which is so hostile against them ? and what is this concept of defensive air force ? Pakistan has direct enemy, very hostile towards Pakistan. How this size is best requirement of PAF ?

So small size can only be requirement of countries which have no threats or at least no direct threats. And how much they had to invest more if they had joined the J-10 development and customized it for Pakistan’s needs, just like what they did in case of JF-17 ?
J-10s could have replaced F-16s, which JF-17 can’t due to it’s limited size.

So I think there was external pressure not to join J-10 program as that could affect Pakistan's dependency on F-16 in future or they saw the market gap and want to prepare something for export. I don’t think any more JF-17 was developed for Pakistan’s needs.

And lastly I am not analyst, I don’t even waste my time replying here. Just that you have put so much effort and should be respected, I am writing this in reply. But I am not satisfied and so sad to see PAF today, it’s feeling similar to 71.

Intersting and a long post. Took some time reading it. Thanks. As to the Sub continent war it is a guess so who is right remains to be seen.
The business of F16s being used against IAF has been discussed to death. There is no evidence that anyone has produced to suggest that to be the case. PAF would not be going out procuring more and more F16s for MLU if this was so. I can reiterate that i firmly believe that there will be no impediment to the use of F16s in a war against India and anyone who says otherwise needs to qualify it with reasoning. So for a war against india the f16s are pretty much on and no one should fall into this conspiracy theory.

On this thread I had posted specs of both the planes(post#472). Have a look at them and then start your comparison.If there are updated specs please post them along side the old ones.
You mentioned you have done a Project in composite Carbon fibre. What level was that on, ie MS or PHD. Where did you do the research or was it purely a theoretical project. Please elaborate.
There is nothing wrong with the size of JFT. What is wrong ewith people is their inability tpo visualize what a huge milestone it has been for PAF and Pakistan. We needed a proect that could be sustained locally and intentionally used a simple design. The full potential of this design has not even been utilized and people are saying we need to change the design and redesign a larger platform. What a fallacy of thought!!!! Can we not work with what we already have rather than dream of an illusive platform which would have had complications associated with it. I dont make comparisons generally, but look at the development cycle of all the platforms developed recently. How come we have had a platform flying after 4 yrs of its inception. You dont see the blessings that it has brought you yet choose to go for that for which you have neither the resources, nor the expertise, nor the time, as you need fighters now. In this regard what new advantage does J10 bering to us?
For instance look at solutions:
Lack of range-------- IFR????? CFT in future
Armament carrying capability---- progressively increasing weight carrying capability and DERs
Range-------- Ability to turn atround quickly allowing multiple sorties. No other plane gives you that.
Ability to land and take off from smaller spaces in case of FOB damage/destruction.
Ability to carry multiple trpes of ammo.
You name it and the list goes on. And yyet people sit there and winge. People who cannot afford Suzuki wishing and salivating after a BMW or Mercedes!!! Why ?
This is why I sometimes get irate at what people write which is totally unachievable.
We had fools suggesting that we abandon the JFT project mid stream and join PLAAF with the J10 project. Did PLAAF ever invite you to join the project? Is there any indication of how much the project has cost to date and what your contribution might have been? Do you have any solution for the glaring deficiencies in the J10 engine issues? How reliable are the avionics for J10 considering that JFT is looking to procure western components for its Thunder? If someone can answer this themn a clearer picture can arise and one can continue the discussion from there.

Regards
A

 

[Joe Shearer]

No one predicted a war just a week before in 65 and no one predicted Indian invasion before unrest in 71. And even during war false news was propagated.
We must be ready for a war, how can a war be predicted ? a single incident and boom

This is laughably incorrect. Or perhaps I should correct that: this is laughably partial a view.

No one predicted a war just a week before it broke out in 1965 for certain very cogent, and sadly, very cynical reasons.

Pakistan had rehearsed for war, and tested India's resolve and morale by an attack on border guards and light infantry using armour commanded by one of her best generals. This happened in the Rann of Kutch, and it is so utterly cynical to pretend that the entire 1965 war started with India crossing the international boundary.

Not only did Pakistan set the stage in the Rann, with its generals then concluding their famous dictum of 'One Pakistani soldier is equal to seven ten Indian soldiers', it then cold-bloodedly planned on a campaign of annexation by force, as a direct continuation of its efforts in 1947-48. This effort by itself gives the lie to Pakistan's pleas on various occasions in various forums that there was never any aggression on the part of Pakistan against Kashmir, and that it was all a popular uprising suppressed by the brutal Indian Army.

That cold-blooded campaign saw Pakistan deploy her favourite tactics, and her classic strategic paradigm, one chockful of astute tactical thinking and wholly devoid of any strategic forethought. It saw Pakistan deploy commandos from the SSG in various contingents named after Islamic conquerors and heroes (but what else?) to kill, destroy and create sufficient confusion so that a seemingly favourable population would pluck up the courage to rise in supportive revolt. The thinking is so blatantly communal, and so devoid of any contact with reality, that one gains insight into two and a half generations of Pakistani national policy.

After the complete and unequivocal defeat of that ploy - strategic plan is too refined a phrase for it - Pakistan then took to the battlefield and launched another campaign in an undeclared war. There were armoured strikes planned across the Jammu river; these were delayed by a marvellous piece of jugglery in mid air worthy of a Monty Python sketch, and the Indian Army was on guard against the attack.

The IA then sought to relieve the constant military pressure from the Pakistanis by launching its own two-front offensive in the Punjab. Led by hesitant leadership, some of which was directly involved in the defeat at Chinese hands just three years before (imagine the Pakistan Army going to war this year after suffering a disastrous defeat in 2013, and you will get an idea of the morale of some of the general officers), the IA gave up a great opportunity, and was thwarted by a heroic act of one single formation flinging itself across the path of a juggernaut, which was so convinced that it was not possible for a regiment to oppose an armoured division that it sniffed around for traps. It then won elsewhere.

As far as the Air Forces were concerned, the IAF kept its planes out in the open, thinking that the pact that had prevailed during the earlier Rann of Kutch fighting still held. They paid for that. A significant part of IAF casualties and losses were in the first two days of assaults by the PAF.

Far from @!eon 's sardonic scenario of the PAF being tied hand and foot, Pakistan's guardian angel entered full-bloodedly into the fighting. Please look up the role of the Military Advisory team, in particular of Chuck Yeager, whose enthusiasm for Pakistan and the PAF knew no bounds. The most advanced plane was the Starfighter; that, and the Sabre, flew combat missions, against Canberras, Vampires and Gnats. The surprising thing was the turn in fortunes in the air war. It is so difficult to believe that not a single Pakistani observer has acknowledged what was happening.

This is where @!eon 's forebodings are useful. The PAF lacked the stamina to fight a long war then. It is not clear what has changed to make it able to fight a long war now.

Maybe that should be the focus, not technology. But then, the further you stray, the better for the IAF, so who am I to complain?

@Tipu7
@!eon

What will you do about this? The root of the problem:

The anticipated 'war' has happened many a times in the last 14 years but in a differet format.

Any military stance that the opponent has taken on other positions---and has taken advantage of it in the world opinion---that is war---but on a different level---.

And because of the 'weaker' air force---pakistan---cannot retaliate in an appropriate manner---even on the political front---because it does not have any substantial assets to face a conflict.

You are right---there is no such thing as a DEFENSIVE air force---.

It is a LIE and a DECEPTION created by Paf---and reinforced by their lackeys.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/j-10-mig...-pafs-capability.429373/page-38#ixzz4HUWUvBHQ

 

[Tipu7]

65 air combat is discussed many time on PDF.
And I don't think its wise idea to mention it in J10 based thread where people are getting impressed from paper capabilities of J10 and are even willing to scrap Jf17 for sake of TOT with J10. So lets leave it .............

This is laughably incorrect. Or perhaps I should correct that: this is laughably partial a view.

No one predicted a war just a week before it broke out in 1965 for certain very cogent, and sadly, very cynical reasons.

Pakistan had rehearsed for war, and tested India's resolve and morale by an attack on border guards and light infantry using armour commanded by one of her best generals. This happened in the Rann of Kutch, and it is so utterly cynical to pretend that the entire 1965 war started with India crossing the international boundary.

Not only did Pakistan set the stage in the Rann, with its generals then concluding their famous dictum of 'One Pakistani soldier is equal to seven ten Indian soldiers', it then cold-bloodedly planned on a campaign of annexation by force, as a direct continuation of its efforts in 1947-48. This effort by itself gives the lie to Pakistan's pleas on various occasions in various forums that there was never any aggression on the part of Pakistan against Kashmir, and that it was all a popular uprising suppressed by the brutal Indian Army.

That cold-blooded campaign saw Pakistan deploy her favourite tactics, and her classic strategic paradigm, one chockful of astute tactical thinking and wholly devoid of any strategic forethought. It saw Pakistan deploy commandos from the SSG in various contingents named after Islamic conquerors and heroes (but what else?) to kill, destroy and create sufficient confusion so that a seemingly favourable population would pluck up the courage to rise in supportive revolt. The thinking is so blatantly communal, and so devoid of any contact with reality, that one gains insight into two and a half generations of Pakistani national policy.

After the complete and unequivocal defeat of that ploy - strategic plan is too refined a phrase for it - Pakistan then took to the battlefield and launched another campaign in an undeclared war. There were armoured strikes planned across the Jammu river; these were delayed by a marvellous piece of jugglery in mid air worthy of a Monty Python sketch, and the Indian Army was on guard against the attack.

The IA then sought to relieve the constant military pressure from the Pakistanis by launching its own two-front offensive in the Punjab. Led by hesitant leadership, some of which was directly involved in the defeat at Chinese hands just three years before (imagine the Pakistan Army going to war this year after suffering a disastrous defeat in 2013, and you will get an idea of the morale of some of the general officers), the IA gave up a great opportunity, and was thwarted by a heroic act of one single formation flinging itself across the path of a juggernaut, which was so convinced that it was not possible for a regiment to oppose an armoured division that it sniffed around for traps. It then won elsewhere.

As far as the Air Forces were concerned, the IAF kept its planes out in the open, thinking that the pact that had prevailed during the earlier Rann of Kutch fighting still held. They paid for that. A significant part of IAF casualties and losses were in the first two days of assaults by the PAF.

Far from @!eon 's sardonic scenario of the PAF being tied hand and foot, Pakistan's guardian angel entered full-bloodedly into the fighting. Please look up the role of the Military Advisory team, in particular of Chuck Yeager, whose enthusiasm for Pakistan and the PAF knew no bounds. The most advanced plane was the Starfighter; that, and the Sabre, flew combat missions, against Canberras, Vampires and Gnats. The surprising thing was the turn in fortunes in the air war. It is so difficult to believe that not a single Pakistani observer has acknowledged what was happening.

This is where @!eon 's forebodings are useful. The PAF lacked the stamina to fight a long war then. It is not clear what has changed to make it able to fight a long war now.

Maybe that should be the focus, not technology. But then, the further you stray, the better for the IAF, so who am I to complain?

@Tipu7
@!eon

What will you do about this? The root of the problem:

The anticipated 'war' has happened many a times in the last 14 years but in a differet format.

Any military stance that the opponent has taken on other positions---and has taken advantage of it in the world opinion---that is war---but on a different level---.

And because of the 'weaker' air force---pakistan---cannot retaliate in an appropriate manner---even on the political front---because it does not have any substantial assets to face a conflict.

You are right---there is no such thing as a DEFENSIVE air force---.

It is a LIE and a DECEPTION created by Paf---and reinforced by their lackeys.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/j-10-mig...-pafs-capability.429373/page-38#ixzz4HUWUvBHQ

 

[Joe Shearer]

65 air combat is discussed many time on PDF.
And I don't think its wise idea to mention it in J10 based thread where people are getting impressed from paper capabilities of J10 and are even willing to scrap Jf17 for sake of TOT with J10. So lets leave it .............

Up to you entirely. Your thread, your priorities. I was reacting to a single remark; was that remark justified?

 

[araz]

This is laughably incorrect. Or perhaps I should correct that: this is laughably partial a view.

No one predicted a war just a week before it broke out in 1965 for certain very cogent, and sadly, very cynical reasons.

Pakistan had rehearsed for war, and tested India's resolve and morale by an attack on border guards and light infantry using armour commanded by one of her best generals. This happened in the Rann of Kutch, and it is so utterly cynical to pretend that the entire 1965 war started with India crossing the international boundary.

Not only did Pakistan set the stage in the Rann, with its generals then concluding their famous dictum of 'One Pakistani soldier is equal to seven ten Indian soldiers', it then cold-bloodedly planned on a campaign of annexation by force, as a direct continuation of its efforts in 1947-48. This effort by itself gives the lie to Pakistan's pleas on various occasions in various forums that there was never any aggression on the part of Pakistan against Kashmir, and that it was all a popular uprising suppressed by the brutal Indian Army.

That cold-blooded campaign saw Pakistan deploy her favourite tactics, and her classic strategic paradigm, one chockful of astute tactical thinking and wholly devoid of any strategic forethought. It saw Pakistan deploy commandos from the SSG in various contingents named after Islamic conquerors and heroes (but what else?) to kill, destroy and create sufficient confusion so that a seemingly favourable population would pluck up the courage to rise in supportive revolt. The thinking is so blatantly communal, and so devoid of any contact with reality, that one gains insight into two and a half generations of Pakistani national policy.

After the complete and unequivocal defeat of that ploy - strategic plan is too refined a phrase for it - Pakistan then took to the battlefield and launched another campaign in an undeclared war. There were armoured strikes planned across the Jammu river; these were delayed by a marvellous piece of jugglery in mid air worthy of a Monty Python sketch, and the Indian Army was on guard against the attack.

The IA then sought to relieve the constant military pressure from the Pakistanis by launching its own two-front offensive in the Punjab. Led by hesitant leadership, some of which was directly involved in the defeat at Chinese hands just three years before (imagine the Pakistan Army going to war this year after suffering a disastrous defeat in 2013, and you will get an idea of the morale of some of the general officers), the IA gave up a great opportunity, and was thwarted by a heroic act of one single formation flinging itself across the path of a juggernaut, which was so convinced that it was not possible for a regiment to oppose an armoured division that it sniffed around for traps. It then won elsewhere.

As far as the Air Forces were concerned, the IAF kept its planes out in the open, thinking that the pact that had prevailed during the earlier Rann of Kutch fighting still held. They paid for that. A significant part of IAF casualties and losses were in the first two days of assaults by the PAF.

Far from @!eon 's sardonic scenario of the PAF being tied hand and foot, Pakistan's guardian angel entered full-bloodedly into the fighting. Please look up the role of the Military Advisory team, in particular of Chuck Yeager, whose enthusiasm for Pakistan and the PAF knew no bounds. The most advanced plane was the Starfighter; that, and the Sabre, flew combat missions, against Canberras, Vampires and Gnats. The surprising thing was the turn in fortunes in the air war. It is so difficult to believe that not a single Pakistani observer has acknowledged what was happening.

This is where @!eon 's forebodings are useful. The PAF lacked the stamina to fight a long war then. It is not clear what has changed to make it able to fight a long war now.

Maybe that should be the focus, not technology. But then, the further you stray, the better for the IAF, so who am I to complain?

@Tipu7
@!eon

What will you do about this? The root of the problem:

The anticipated 'war' has happened many a times in the last 14 years but in a differet format.

Any military stance that the opponent has taken on other positions---and has taken advantage of it in the world opinion---that is war---but on a different level---.

And because of the 'weaker' air force---pakistan---cannot retaliate in an appropriate manner---even on the political front---because it does not have any substantial assets to face a conflict.

You are right---there is no such thing as a DEFENSIVE air force---.

It is a LIE and a DECEPTION created by Paf---and reinforced by their lackeys.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/j-10-mig...-pafs-capability.429373/page-38#ixzz4HUWUvBHQ

A slightly off topic post but still worth a read and commendable!!! I have been told that PA was aware of IA deployments for 3 months before the war. I fully agree that the start was from the Pakistani side although in their idiocy the generals did not expect the other side to respond. This is the same foolhardiness that was exhibited in the Kargil affair. On that occasion we abandoned 30 000 of ours to die and on this occasion 4000. A really sad STATE OF AFFAIRS!!!
The Government of Pakistan also paid one of the leaders ( I forget his name) 60 lacks of Rupees to help with the resserection which he duly pocketed and let our people die. But of course we would never acknowledge that!!!
As to what changed the fortunes of the war, the simple reason was we were running low on ammo, and the spares were embargoed so we had no choice but to scream for help.
The same situation arose in 71 and we had a chance to reach a cease fire when that Scoundrel Bhutto went to the UN and tore the Polish proposal and walked out and with that went the dream of a united Pakistan. We might not have had a united Pakistan after all but the solutions could have been much less acrimonious if we had tried. We never tried!!!!

A

 

[barbarosa]

The death and war can come any time. Some of our PDF senior members thinks that India cannot in the position to attack on Pakistan,they are surly wrong. The enemy will look at the time of our weakness, If they thinks that the exist PAF is in a complete preparation without new air craft, once again they are wrong. F16 would be complete jam in the war against India, Mirage 3 and 5 are not comparable to SU30, M2K or other Indian air crafts.
PAF will fight along with PG and JF17 but these are in low quantity.
I do not know that what kind of preparation has done by PAF.

 

[Joe Shearer]

A slightly off topic post but still worth a read and commendable!!! I have been told that PA was aware of IA deployments for 3 monthsa beofre the war. (1)

I fully agree that the start was from the pakistani side although in their idiocy the generals did not expect the other side to respond. This is the asame foolhardiness that was exhibited in the Kargil; affair. On that occasion we abandoned 30 000 of ours to die and on this occasion 4000. A really sad STATE OF AFFAIRS!!! (2)

The Government of Pakistan also paid one of the leaders ( I forget his name) 60 lacks of Rupees to help with the resserection which he duly pocketed and let our people die. But of course we would never acknowledge that!!!

As to what changed the fortunes of the war, the simple reason was we were running low on ammo, and the spares were embargoed so we had no choice but to scream for help.

The same situation arose in 71 and we had a chance to reach a cease fire when that Scoundrel Bhutto went to the UN and tore the Polish proposal and walked out and with that went the dream of a united Pakistan. We might not have had a united Pakistan after all but the solutions could have been much less acrimonious if we had tried. We never tried!!!! (3)

A

Hundred per cent right.

As Akbar said somewhere, Allah was against Pakistan. (At least on these two occasions.)

1. That is true. Believe it or not, India had a newly raised brigade, with a brigade headquarters but no troops, and only a hotch-potch two or three battalions stood between General Malik and a breakthrough. And you know the unbelievable development: Musa Khan descending from the Heavens in a chopper, putting Yahya in charge and whisking away a completely dumbfounded Malik. His letter to his brother in later years, before his death in Turkey, makes melancholy reading.

That gave Lt. Gen. Harbaksh Singh the few days that he needed, and he managed to plug the gap.

Incidentally, the Brigadier who did the Rann of Kutch operations was a Corps Commander in 71, and he attacked at the same spot and broke through! And - wait for this - some squaddie saw his chopper passing, fired at it, and brought it down, and Eftekhar died of burn injuries after having won a victory which nobody exploited!

If I was writing this as a fictional account, I would have been howled down.

2. I can't help wondering at this repeated again and again: tactical brilliance and strategic blindness.

3. Here you are being unfair to everybody else in Pakistan. This is what Bhutto had been aiming for from the outset, from his adventurous days as Ayub Khan's irresistibly charming and unstoppable (and lying) Foreign Minister. He wanted power, and he broke the Pakistan Army in his bid for power. He weakened it in 65, and he shattered it in 71 (do you recall that he replaced Gul Hassan Khan as C-in-C as the last step). Then he made his fatal error, of rebuilding it. Or perhaps he thought he was dooming it by appointing Zia and never thought of what might happen.

Sorry for the diversion.

Back to JF17 vs. J10. My take is: somewhere, sometime, you need to start design from the ground up, but using sub-assemblies, not components. There isn't enough of a supply chain to do it from components. Having learnt to manufacture with components and raw materials will only help that higher level effort.

Second, I've said this before, about the PN, and I'll say it again, you need to have deterrent power - like Singapore, be a shrimp with teeth. Only in your case, you are far higher in the pecking order. A major investment in missiles, not MBTs; in attack helicopters, not in infantry regiments; in SAMs, network-centric resources and light planes with BVR, not glittering objects of desire.

Just my take. And there's always the chance that I've been paid to say this!!

 

[zebra7]

@araz @Joe Shearer Thanks for your excellent comments, and I started wondering Did I need to read the History again ?

 

[araz]

All I will say is I have been kind to Bhutto as I fear blasting a dead man who is not there to defend himself will lead to questions in the hereafter and I am more afraid of that than any thing else in the world. That one man did us more harm than all the leaders combined and all the good he tried to do afterwards pales in front of it. The whole nuclear thing was also a legacy building exercise. If he had not seen a means of extending his rule through the slogan of a nuclear powered nation he would never have done it.
The reason I think these things should come out and an admission of guilt from both the sides is to start clearing the air. We cant have wars in the region without having utter devastation. Hoewever just like anything else this too will go on to deaf ears and we will eventually have war with catastrophic outcomes for both countries unless people start a bit of introspection. PA has hopefully moved on and become a bit more savvy as I hope has IA. The Governments are yet to see the light of the day and I think India is to blame here.
Anyways nice talking to another sane man from the opposite side of the divide( which should never have been as deep as it is)
A

 

[Joe Shearer]

@araz @Joe Shearer Thanks for your excellent comments, and I started wondering Did I need to read the History again ?

History of which or what, dear Sir? Please let's take it off line, btw.

 

[araz]

.

Back to JF17 vs. J10. My take is: somewhere, sometime, you need to start design from the ground up, but using sub-assemblies, not components. There isn't enough of a supply chain to do it from components. Having learnt to manufacture with components and raw materials will only help that higher level effort.

Second, I've said this before, about the PN, and I'll say it again, you need to have deterrent power - like Singapore, be a shrimp with teeth. Only in your case, you are far higher in the pecking order. A major investment in missiles, not MBTs; in attack helicopters, not in infantry regiments; in SAMs, network-centric resources and light planes with BVR, not glittering objects of desire.

Just my take. And there's always the chance that I've been paid to say this!!

I will say that for its infantile experience in aviation industry. The JFT was the ideal design and project for PAF/PAC to embark on. We have learnt loads from it. The stage you are talking about is yet 10 years away where we progress on to designs and development od an indegenous programme. The away we are procuring MLUed 16s is an indication we are fast progressing in that direction.
A

 

[zebra7]

Here is my take on this thread, and several times I mentioned this on PDF.

1. Decission by PAF to go for the JF-17 was good, and probably the best option instead of J-10.

2. However, I agree with few members in this thread, that more heavier, bigger, and superior plane would be needed for the PAF.

3. If I have to suggest, the PAF then the best plane for them is MIG-35 not J-10, reasons

• MIG-35 have twin engine, which shares comonality with the JF-17.
• Superior Airframe, that will provide the Air-Superiority power to PAF, with some ground attack Capability.
• AESA Radar available from Zhuk with 1064 T/R module rp-35.
• Full digital cockpit, FBW, FADEEC, Superior than IAF MIG-29UPG on capability, range and survivability.
• Could face IAF MIG-29 UPG, Mirrage 2000 UPG, and Su-30MKI.
• PAF could get the Russian Weaponary aka Anti-shipping, BVRAAM, WVRAAM, A2G Cruise Missiles.
• PAF could tailor modify the MIG-35, with the Western Avionics or Chinese as per their requirement.
• India could not put pressure on Russia, as Russia had hardtime getting the customer, and India have rejected the same, when offered by Russia to India.
• Pakistan could set up local MRO, manufacturing unit for the Engines both for JF-17 and MIG-35.

 

[Hellfire]

Many things, In couple of days under the likes of @hellfire, Araz, and yourself . Many things, which I was not aware of, and yes off course not specific to this thread, rather on various threads.

@Joe Shearer What crap has he been learning? You are spoiling another 'patriot'!!!!



@zebra7 you will get bracketed with the aforementioned gentleman with disastrous consequences!!!


And PLEASE KEEP ME OUT OF IT!!!!!

I have done nothing of above, the credit of which you tag to me!!!!

 

[zebra7]

@Joe Shearer What crap has he been learning? You are spoiling another 'patriot'!!!!



@zebra7 you will get bracketed with the aforementioned gentleman with disastrous consequences!!!


And PLEASE KEEP ME OUT OF IT!!!!!

I have done nothing of above, the credit of which you tag to me!!!!

Sorry, by Bad, I was referring to your some of the outrageous post, which I am reading for couple of days, and sorry but I saved them all specially your question on some other threads. Pls forgive my ignorance to tag you here. I will edit my post.