J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

[Tipu7]

7 crashes in 1980----15 in 1981---22 in 1982--and on and on and on----23 in 1983---22 in 1984---21 in 1985---26 in 1986---23 in 1987---31 in 1988---34 in 1989----28 in 1990

This is the number of crashes for the F16's---here is the link

http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/

Is their a limit to you kids stupidity---learning disability and understanding---

255 crashes / accidents in the first 11 years.

Instead of taking the thought process and learning to the next level up---you kids bring it down a couple of notches.

Sir,
How many PAF F16 are crashed in past 20 Years?
How many PLAAF J10 are crahsed in past years?
Lets talk about South Asia only as I don't find it viable to compare crashes of a Jet (2500 Units) with a Jet (250 Units).

What do you mean RD93 is a cheap engine---.

Indeed in fuel consumption its not a very good engine.
I was talking from PAF perspective, as we operate 90+ examples powered by RD93 engine, enough experience in maintenance, adding an air craft with completely new engine (which has history of troubles) is comparatively more expensive. You know very well how wise it is to add 2,2 squadrons of multiple air crafts with engines of multiple origin.
Unlike IAF, we cannot afford a Zoo.

So war breaks out and then you want to get J10---.

In case Indo Pak war broke out involving air combat, which air craft you will look which is comparatively cheap , easy to absorb and fusible to deliver in large numbers in short times inorder to keep required strength of Air force available while filling up losses?
I believe it should be J10. Not F16, not Jf17, not Mig21.
Just like in 71 war we operated half squadron of F5 obtained from friendly country to cover up losses, same thing will happen again.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I believe that by 2001---possibly 2000 to 2500 F16's were in service---.

With 590 crashes / accidents---that is between 20% to 25% of the aircraft in service---.

There are over 430 J10's in service---and 12 crashes mean less than 3% of aircraft in service---.

One thoughtless post---and then suddenly there are 10 followers repeating the same thing without thinking---.

Sir,
How many PAF F16 are crashed in past 20 Years?
How many PLAAF J10 are crahsed in past years?
Lets talk about South Asia only as I don't find it viable to compare crashes of a Jet (2500 Units) with a Jet (250 Units).

Indeed in fuel consumption its not a very good engine.
I was talking from PAF perspective, as we operate 90+ examples powered by RD93 engine, enough experience in maintenance, adding an air craft with completely new engine (which has history of troubles) is comparatively more expensive. You know very well how wise it is to add 2,2 squadrons of multiple air crafts with engines of multiple origin.
Unlike IAF, we cannot afford a Zoo.



In case Indo Pak war broke out involving air combat, which air craft you will look which is comparatively cheap , easy to absorb and fusible to deliver in large numbers in short times inorder to keep required strength of Air force available while filling up losses?
I believe it should be J10. Not F16, not Jf17, not Mig21.
Just like in 71 war we operated half squadron of F5 obtained from friendly country to cover up losses, same thing will happen again.

Stop posting silly posts---. If 1971 is the comparison capability and understanding that you have---then you ought to be ashamed of thumping your chest in ignorance with that knowledge.

In 1971---most of the aircraft were of similar capability and mechanics---in 2016---no aircraft is similar in the cockpit operation.

It is like in every different aircraft---there is a different LAPTOP that you need to learn how to operate and weapons systems that you need to get trained on.

You really disappoint me kid----I feel ashamed at the level of your illeteracy in understanding the modern day battle systems and the time it takes to get to know them---and you were one of the reasonable posters

 

[Tipu7]

Stop posting silly posts---. If 1971 is the comparison capability and understanding that you have---then you ought to be ashamed of thumping your chest in ignorance with that knowledge.

In 1971---most of the aircraft were of similar capability and mechanics---in 2016---no aircraft is similar in the cockpit operation.

It is like in every different aircraft---there is a different LAPTOP that you need to learn how to operate and weapons systems that you need to get trained on.

You really disappoint me kid----I feel ashamed at the level of your illeteracy in understanding the modern day battle systems and the time it takes to get to know them---and you were one of the reasonable posters

Sir,
I pointed out a fact as an example to make my statement more clear.
I find no issue in that.

I believe that by 2001---possibly 2000 to 2500 F16's were in service---.

With 590 crashes / accidents---that is between 20% to 25% of the aircraft in service---.

There are over 430 J10's in service---and 12 crashes mean less than 3% of aircraft in service---.

One thoughtless post---and then suddenly there are 10 followers repeating the same thing without thinking---.

Sir
will you compare sorties per crash or total flight hours per crash?
Chinese don't mention or atleast admit air crashes. This year there are two known crashes of J10.
Again considering Asia Pacific only
How many PAF F16s crashed in past 2 decades? How many PLAAF J10 crashed in past two decades?

 

[nangyale]

Sir,

Sir
will you compare sorties per crash or total flight hours per crash?
Chinese don't mention or atleast admit air crashes. This year there are two known crashes of J10.
Again considering South Asia only
How many PAF F16s crashed in past 2 decades? How many PLAAF J10 crashed in past two decades?

You need to change to Asia from South Asia.
China is not part of South Asia.

 

[Tipu7]

You need to change to Asia from South Asia.
China is not part of South Asia.

Corrected.

 

[Syed_Adeel]

Chinese engines, be it WS10 or WS13 are not mature. It's risky to rely up in them. Since China is in initial stages of jet engine development so it's wise to assume that their engines right now lags behind their Western & Russian counterparts in capability, safety and reliability.......

Not only engines, i believe some of the avionics up to a certain level as well.
that makes a sense for PAF to pursue f16s as stop gap for next 10 years .

As much as I would like to see the PAF get more and moreF-16's, its time to add another plane to the Hi. Ever wasted day will take that much longer to sign a contract and then get the new platform and then train pilots. Time to let the F-16 be the second top aircraft. Not the ONLY top aircraft in the PAF.

@MastanKhan : I am sure you'd like to add something here

its very clear that f16s are just stop gaps for next 5 to 10 years unless much advanced JFTs are in services and a 5th gen platform is inducted.

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir,
I pointed out a fact as an example to make my statement more clear.
I find no issue in that.


Sir
will you compare sorties per crash or total flight hours per crash?
Chinese don't mention or atleast admit air crashes. This year there are two known crashes of J10.
Again considering Asia Pacific only
How many PAF F16s crashed in past 2 decades? How many PLAAF J10 crashed in past two decades?

Hi,

You are totally clueless to what you are talking about---and on top of it---you are being belligerent about it as well.

Well---that is the true definition of a ' pakistani '.

Now to the second part---the chinese are flying as many hours a year as the americans are.

It is not a matter of asia pacific---when aircraft crashes are taken into account---the percentage is taken into account from all the operators of the product.

At this time---the crash rate is barely 3 percent of over 400 J10's in service---.

Next---pakistan is a nobody---if the comparison of J10 crashes has to be made----it has to be made between the 2 manufacturers---the chinese and the americans.

And you may count the number of american crashes of the F16's in the first 10 years of production---the percentage will be much higher---count the second ten years---and they will be still higher than the chinese---.

Here is the link to that----start counting

http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/airforce/USAF/1/

 

[punit]

Hi,

You are totally clueless to what you are talking about---and on top of it---you are being belligerent about it as well.

Well---that is the true definition of a ' pakistani '.

Now to the second part---the chinese are flying as many hours a year as the americans are.

It is not a matter of asia pacific---when aircraft crashes are taken into account---the percentage is taken into account from all the operators of the product.

At this time---the crash rate is barely 3 percent of over 400 J10's in service---.

Next---pakistan is a nobody---if the comparison of J10 crashes has to be made----it has to be made between the 2 manufacturers---the chinese and the americans.

And you may count the number of american crashes of the F16's in the first 10 years of production---they will be much higher---count the second ten years---and they will be still higher than the chinese---.

Here is the link to that----start counting

http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/airforce/USAF/1/

i must say ... its a pleasure to read your arguments and counter points!! i may not agree with your POV But it is a pleasure none the less. may i ask if u are sales person in real world or some one with more important position !

 

[MastanKhan]

i must say ... its a pleasure to read your arguments and counter points!! i may not agree with your POV But it is a pleasure none the less. may i ask if u are sales person in real world or some one with more important position !

Every person at a car dealership involved in sales is basically a sales person---the general manager making 300-500 k a year---a manager making 100-200k a year---a finance manager making 100--150 k a year---a sales person making 50-150k a year---each one of them is a sales person.

 

[!eon]

Sir,
In case Indo Pak war broke out involving air combat, which air craft you will look which is comparatively cheap , easy to absorb and fusible to deliver in large numbers in short times inorder to keep required strength of Air force available while filling up losses?
I believe it should be J10. Not F16, not Jf17, not Mig21.
Just like in 71 war we operated half squadron of F5 obtained from friendly country to cover up losses, same thing will happen again.

War, about which every one is sure is coming tomorrow or day after tomorrow, PAF preparations compared to IAF are null. Setting hoping eyes on friends in war time is even worst.

@MastanKhan I wonder when Chinese were going for J-10 rejecting JF-17 for PLAAF, what was reason for Air Marshals to stuck with smaller JF-17 ? Chinese were fully putting their energies in J-10 development and if Pakistanis were also fully there leaving JF-17 in history, it could be a different J-10 today. Suitable and adoptable for both air forces.

I mean JF-17 is designed in era of 4th generation and still they hardly finding corners to incorporate elements of same era to adjust in it's small frame.

 

[Super Falcon]

Utterly stupid in war if you thinking cheap feasible fuel you loose a war

 

[MastanKhan]

War, about which every one is sure is coming tomorrow or day after tomorrow, PAF preparations compared to IAF are null. Setting hoping eyes on friends in war time is even worst.

@MastanKhan I wonder when Chinese were going for J-10 rejecting JF-17 for PLAAF, what was reason for Air Marshals to stuck with smaller JF-17 ? Chinese were fully putting their energies in J-10 development and if Pakistanis were also fully there leaving JF-17 in history, it could be a different J-10 today. Suitable and adoptable for both air forces.

I mean JF-17 is designed in era of 4th generation and still they hardly finding corners to incorporate elements of same era to adjust in it's small frame.

Hi,

If the Paf ahd thought tactically---and not about their pockets---the JF17 program would have been shut down and all attention diverted towards the J10---.

Which would have propelled the J10 farther out where it is today and the Paf would have been operating from a higher pleteau.

 

[!eon]

Hi,

If the Paf ahd thought tactically---and not about their pockets---the JF17 program would have been shut down and all attention diverted towards the J10---.

Which would have propelled the J10 farther out where it is today and the Paf would have been operating from a higher pleteau.

Experience gained from J-10 could have been used later to develop a smaller brother of J-10 to fill the pockets.
but ahhh.... so sad to see the situation of PAF today.

I think it's still not fully over. Chinese will continue to work on J-10. PAF can join J-10 programs, keeping JF-17 for pure export. Including the inducted ones.

 

[Tipu7]

War, about which every one is sure is coming tomorrow or day after tomorrow, PAF preparations compared to IAF are null. Setting hoping eyes on friends in war time is even worst

Explain how PAF preparation are "NULL"

wonder when Chinese were going for J-10 rejecting JF-17 for PLAAF, what was reason for Air Marshals to stuck with smaller JF-17 ? Chinese were fully putting their energies in J-10 development and if Pakistanis were also fully there leaving JF-17 in history, it could be a different J-10 today. Suitable and adoptable for both air forces.

Oh boy.
Seriously you are saying this?
Do you know requirements difference of both PLAAF & PAF?

I mean JF-17 is designed in era of 4th generation and still they hardly finding corners to incorporate elements of same era to adjust in it's small frame.

Elaborate super dober elements in J10?
Except GOD KNOWS AESA in so called B & C version?
At least name the so called AESA in J10B-C?
Just bcoz things look shiny on paper DOES NOT mean they are equally worthy in real life.
Jf17 is already superior than J10A in many aspects. And Block 3 will eliminate need of J10 entirely.....

 

[araz]

War, about which every one is sure is coming tomorrow or day after tomorrow, PAF preparations compared to IAF are null. Setting hoping eyes on friends in war time is even worst.

@MastanKhan I wonder when Chinese were going for J-10 rejecting JF-17 for PLAAF, what was reason for Air Marshals to stuck with smaller JF-17 ? Chinese were fully putting their energies in J-10 development and if Pakistanis were also fully there leaving JF-17 in history, it could be a different J-10 today. Suitable and adoptable for both air forces.

I mean JF-17 is designed in era of 4th generation and still they hardly finding corners to incorporate elements of same era to adjust in it's small frame.

Firstly War in the subcontinent is not going to happen in a decade and a half or longer. There are various cogent reasons for this but this is not the place for this discussion.The war that is ongoing is a financial one which most of our country men are blissfully unaware of ,as they are too busy raping this poor country to care to look up.
Secondly PAF has improved leaps and bounds in the last 15 years. From having limited BVR capability we now have 150 BVR capable fighters integrated into network centric ability. That on a pea sized budget is a major achievement so you need to rethink your argument again. PAF and PA knows no one will come to its help in times of war and they are not counting on it.
JFT vs J10 ebate is simply a question of how much leeway one has in integrating weapons system. If you look at the weapons of JFT vs the J10 you will find the former to be much widely equipped as compared to the later. The other thing to note is that irrespective of the wishes of our armchair Generals and self styled strategists the JFT was designed with input from PAF keeping its own needs in mind, just like the J10 was designed with Chinese needs in mind. The evolution in design and general progression has been comparable on both platforms. On account of our needs and an even smaller pocket, ever burgeoning deficit payments(24% of your GDP as per news yesterday) one has to think economically.
The Chinese reneged on their agreement to buying 200 JFT platforms and PAF considers that all measures taken into account it does not need the J10 at this point in time. Obviously that need can change and PAF has kept a very close eye on J10 developments but as most technologies which are required are being passed down to JFT in any case we think we can get by for the moment waiting for our economy to pick up. Even then whether we need the j10 or something with more teeth to it is something that will be debated for some time to come.
So before one goes out complaining you need to analyze the situation fairly and then base you opinions.
Regards
A