J-10 might not needed as they don't add anything to PAF's capability

[Tipu7]

My man,

There is a limit to being thoughtless---and you have topped it all.

I am going to post a quote from another defense forum---and if you have any common sense or an iota of understanding left in you---you will change your thinking---


"
Julio Ramos said: ↑
Attack helicopters are more a tactical weapon than a scenario one. That means that they are not as useful as planes as a propaganda and, first of all, they lack the range to appear where they aren`t excpected .
It makes sense to hide weapons that could be useful in a scenario as the South China Sea conflict because they can be a bitter surprise to foreign nations ".


" Kwaigonegin replies

I agree with that notion .. things like tanks, helos etc are primarily tactical .. planes, bombers etc are both tactical and strategic therefore usually more secretive ".


China has basically put a lid on any leakage regarding its fighter aircraft---for all of them---there will be no news about which aircraft has what---unless the chinese want the news to be released.

@Tipu7 ----if you did not have the ability to understand that simple logic about the chinese keeping their product under the wrap---then your information is not worth posting material regarding the chinese equipment.

The americans don't care---they show off to the world what they have----match us if you can.

The chinese have already shown off too much---some of it they could not hide---like the aircraft---but the sub systems they can hide---their EW suites they can hide---.

What if the EW suite in the J20 is a true stolen copy of the one in the F22 or the one in the J10 a copy of one in the BLK60---.

So---for them---why to show it---why to jeopardize the life of someone who leaked the technical information.

By hiding the sub systems---they maybe saving the life of an accomplice---.

Americans are masters at deciphering the opponents equipment by the size and shape of the equipment from the technology available to the opponent.

Are the chinese trying to hide what they have achieved so far---it won't be a surprise.

My man---there is more to what meets the eye. Trust me on this----neither do you have the ability nor the resource to understand that and nor your buddy araz---who does not have an original of thought of his own and waves a print out and says---look this paper says this----then that is what it is.

Now---don't get me wrong---you can begin to understand---but you have to allow yourself to shatter the idols that you have created and those that you worship in your mind---. You have to break your CRUTCH.

Life is about learning---so begin to learn---.

I will be deeply honoured if you will mention name of AESA in J10B......
I am not demanding much ......

 

[T90TankGuy]

@MastanKhan
@jbgt90

I would like to point out that this post makes an interesting observation.

If Pakistan tries to match India fighter for fighter, tank for tank, the future is bleak. On the other hand, as a smaller nation facing a larger, but somewhat inert opponent, Pakistan can take chances, experiment with her military organisation, her methods of waging war, her formations and their arming, and create a great deal of fear, uncertainty and doubt in Indian minds.

I too am surprised by this , i would have thought the PA would have using a page out of the PAF book turned their force into a highly mobile rather then the static formations they have . They have the advantage of having a smaller border to protect and could make great strides if they come out of this pre independence era of matching formations for formations .

 

[ziaulislam]

@MastanKhan
@jbgt90

I would like to point out that this post makes an interesting observation.

If Pakistan tries to match India fighter for fighter, tank for tank, the future is bleak. On the other hand, as a smaller nation facing a larger, but somewhat inert opponent, Pakistan can take chances, experiment with her military organisation, her methods of waging war, her formations and their arming, and create a great deal of fear, uncertainty and doubt in Indian minds.

so true, i believe india will want pakistan to buy expensive equipment and kill its economy for weapons that might never be used.
we have nuclear weapons as deterrence and we need a more modernized and slim force rather than a large but obsolete force.
the initial three decades of militery rule before 1973, followed by 2 more military rules has essentially made pak army as a powerful institution that had in the past great amount of funding than expected for a poor country but we need more balancing out of our resources, even if we match india or if india super succeed us, any conflict will end in stale mate, the only case that it might not is cold start doctrine published by india. so essential our army needs to hold in 3-4 days of conflict which would end up in in-repairable damage to indian economy, even before the threshold of nuke war is reached.

I believe modernization of air force and navy can only be achieved if army is ready to give up most of it share, which in turn is only possible if force strength is reduced

 

[Joe Shearer]

pakistan is certainly not matching bullet by bullet but credible detterence
you see we are not starting new jets acquisition
not buying aircraft carriers
not going for nuke subs
neither we can but also besides India we have no use of them
Pakistan has always and will always find cost effective ways
you can compare our military budgets we dont come anything close to India
even if we had much many, we had no use of Aircraft carriers


??????????????

you are right, but i was thinking about a rather more radical orientation. Perhaps if you start a specific thread (but not for a week, I am a little stressed at the moment), we could discuss it in detail.

@jbgt90

The athletic Prussian against the giant Russian model.

I too am surprised by this , i would have thought the PA would have using a page out of the PAF book turned their force into a highly mobile rather then the static formations they have . They have the advantage of having a smaller border to protect and could make great strides if they come out of this pre independence era of matching formations for formations .

More than a smaller border, they defend on internal lines. They can look at their eastern frontier as an arc, with them somewhere near the centre, and that gives them an advantage; they can sit in one spot (theoretically) and despatch troops to whichever point of the curved border they select. Or that is selected by their strategists, and they sit and pounce on any attack on their frontiers.

 

[ebrahym]

the initial three decades of militery rule before 1973, followed by 2 more military rules has essentially made pak army as a powerful institution that had in the past great amount of funding than expected for a poor country but we need more balancing out of our resources,

with all due respect most of this funding came from Saudis and Americans
saying that PA's huge fundings are responsible for current economy is neglecting the factor of sanctions in 90s and corruption of governance

They have the advantage of having a smaller border

with all due respect , the border is short when Indian sees it for Pakistan it is the largest border,
and

about modernization i have managed that what we need (given our cost effective nature)
are Light commando battalions
not under military
they can be classified as paramilitary
providing assistance in search and rescue assisting PA in counter-insurgency and also being used for Law and order
it can be used by NACTA and many other institutes as well
and this solution is on under table

in the conclusion I would be saying that Funding of Pakistan Army is not related to our economic problems remotely
even Nuclear program had little impact as much of it was funded by dictators from middle east
its the sanctions and governance as i read previous old news Pakistan was doing exceptionally well then India or Malaysia or even Seoul uptill Zia's regime but after 1990's sanction everything gone bad

They can look at their eastern frontier as an arc, with them somewhere near the centre, and that gives them an advantage; they can sit in one spot (theoretically) and despatch troops to whichever point of the curved border they select. Or that is selected by their strategists, and they sit and pounce on any attack on their frontiers

did not quite get what you are trying to elaborate
I can tell you this that pakistan have not deviated much from their doctrine of offensive-defense of 90s
defending on internal lines is when India actually penetrate borders with CSD
there is no universal guarantee that it will be executed as planned or PA actually have no cards up their sleeves to counter it

 

[MastanKhan]

I will be deeply honoured if you will mention name of AESA in J10B......
I am not demanding much ......

Hi,

Your DEMAND has no MERIT---it is a weapons world---a world known for its secrecy at times. Just like you are clueless to what is happening with the JF17's right now---.

That is why I keep telling you----put your thinking cap on---. I have written a whole post on the subject matter---and posted comments from other independant posters.

Chinese have put a lid on the information coming out regarding the flights, deployment, or any fire control radar information or other EW items for reasons described in my post.

If you do not have the basic understanding of how the americans can analyze the capabilities by looking at the size of the machine without seeing its innards in relation to the known engineering and design capabilities of the opponent---then it becomes next to impossible to communicate at the same level.

 

[Tipu7]

AESA name Sir?
Like Type XYZ.
What ever it is, I need to know.
I am not here to debate with you.

Hi,

Your DEMAND has no MERIT---it is a weapons world---a world known for its secrecy at times. Just like you are clueless to what is happening with the JF17's right now---.

That is why I keep telling you----put your thinking cap on---. I have written a whole post on the subject matter---and posted comments from other independant posters.

Chinese have put a lid on the information coming out regarding the flights, deployment, or any fire control radar information or other EW items for reasons described in my post.

If you do not have the basic understanding of how the americans can analyze the capabilities by looking at the size of the machine without seeing its innards in relation to the known engineering and design capabilities of the opponent---then it becomes next to impossible to communicate at the same level.

 

[MastanKhan]

AESA name Sir?
Like Type XYZ.
What ever it is, I need to know.
I am not here to debate with you.

Okay---i tried to explain---.

Well---then you have to wait for your turn to come---because there are those with a higher pay grade waiting ahead of you to find the answer.

But in the meantime---try to learn and understand that in modern day aircraft---the pilots don't jump in and take off for battle like they did 40-50-60 years ago or in 71 war.

Once you have learnt and understood that concept---then you can go to the next step---.

With keeping your understanding of the issue and your input of your last 10-15 posts on the subject matter---what difference would it make if you had the information or not.

 

[ziaulislam]

with all due respect most of this funding came from Saudis and Americans
saying that PA's huge fundings are responsible for current economy is neglecting the factor of sanctions in 90s and corruption of governance

with all due respect , the border is short when Indian sees it for Pakistan it is the largest border,
and

about modernization i have managed that what we need (given our cost effective nature)
are Light commando battalions
not under military
they can be classified as paramilitary
providing assistance in search and rescue assisting PA in counter-insurgency and also being used for Law and order
it can be used by NACTA and many other institutes as well
and this solution is on under table

1. a lot of saudi assistance is just a myth, i dont see any evdience that they payed for f-16s in 80s or 90s and certainly they havent paid for any major deal recently in last 15 years except the 1.5 billion we just got, yes we are getting assitance and loans here and there, but it has been either USA or japan that have been the leading donars to pakistan
2. noone says military is responsible for our poor economy, its the politicians
3. Pakistan military budget is over 12 billion dollars(if you inculde pentions), equal to 4% of gdp, our health, education is less than 1% of GDP, this is usually not the case in most of the countries, most of time defence budget dont exceed 1-1.5%(e.g Bangladesh, Argentina etc)
4. you already have 2 lac para military force, one of the largest in the world, still not fully utilized
5. you need to spend money on your police, not on army to increase law and order in LONG TERM, army is never designed or trained to do maintain law and order in a democratic govt

PS:
i think we should have a strong military but we need to understand the cost and ground realities..

 

[ebrahym]

a lot of saudi assistance is just a myth, i dont see any evdience that they payed for f-16s in 80s or 90s and certainly they havent paid for any major deal recently in last 15 years except the 1.5 billion we just got, yes we are getting assitance and loans here and there, but it has been either USA or japan that have been the leading donars to pakistan

most of F-16s come from US aid
rest the points you have stated have nothing to do with our Army or their funding but related to bad governance and political issues
it is not our Armies fault or their funding
our military budget is still lowest than many
Iran's current budget is 19 billion dollar
Education budget, Paramilitaries to Use, Police
how is Army related to them
let me quote my findings
Pakistan's military budget throughout had no effect on economy of Pakistan
pakistan's nuclear program(started by civilians) had negligible effect on economy
because our economy was more then well during the nuclearprogram during 80s
and pakistan allegedly had nukes in 1989
the only reason for Pakistan's current economical status is due to the economic sanctions of 90s and massive corruption in bureaucracy and civilian govt also must not forget that zardari tenure is also the major reason of economic fall as mushy did not left with worsening but the situation was gradually bettering which was ruined by Zardari and co.

a lot of saudi assistance is just a myth, i dont see any evdience that they payed for f-16s in 80s or 90s and certainly they havent paid for any major deal recently in last 15 years except the 1.5 billion we just got, yes we are getting assitance and loans here and there, but it has been either USA or japan that have been the leading donars to pakistan

Sir our Nuclear program was funded by dictators from Qaddafi to Gulf monarchs there is no denying in that

If you do not have the basic understanding of how the americans can analyze the capabilities by looking at the size of the machine without seeing its innards in relation to the known engineering and design capabilities of the opponent

I am aware of this trick
that is how it has been suspected that Shaheen-III have MIRV capabilities just by its dimensions
you have to carefully analyze the payload , its delivery system and compare it with dimensions if all does not adds then the bottle of syrup has been filled with a little alcohol as well
same thing with Radars the dimensions of antenna, transmitter and sensor can give essential information to predict the type of radar cooked .

 

[Tipu7]

Okay---i tried to explain---.

Well---then you have to wait for your turn to come---because there are those with a higher pay grade waiting ahead of you to find the answer.

But in the meantime---try to learn and understand that in modern day aircraft---the pilots don't jump in and take off for battle like they did 40-50-60 years ago or in 71 war.

Once you have learnt and understood that concept---then you can go to the next step---.

With keeping your understanding of the issue and your input of your last 10-15 posts on the subject matter---what difference would it make if you had the information or not.

Not a lecture again Sir.
I want to known the name of Radar.
I am not insulting you or humiliating you. In fact I belong to ''group'' of yours, and you know it very well.
All I want confirmation of news which I have and I do not want to share it on forum.
For that, I need name of AESA housed in J10B or in C.

 

[nangyale]

More than a smaller border, they defend on internal lines. They can look at their eastern frontier as an arc, with them somewhere near the centre, and that gives them an advantage; they can sit in one spot (theoretically) and despatch troops to whichever point of the curved border they select. Or that is selected by their strategists, and they sit and pounce on any attack on their frontiers.

I think this is something that will suit India nicely and guarantee a quick Pakistani defeat.

The whole idea of cold start is based on making a decisive thrust in to an area in Pakistan that is least defended. The Pakistani counter to which is to leave nowhere vulnerable along the Indo-Pak border, and for that we need a big Army. In war time we won't have the luxury of moving troops and heavy equipment while under fire. The best PAF will be able to offer is some resistance to total IAF air supremacy. Now if we have a highly trained highly mobile elite force (which will be very expensive to assemble in the first place), all India needs to do is not strike where it is concentrated and hit the weak spot. By the time Pakistan mobilise this elite formation to counter the Indian thrust, India would have destroyed any local airfields and made it impossible for Pakistan to move this formation. Resulting in a sweet Indian victory. But that's exactly what you want, isn't it.
The kind of elite force you want for Pakistan is good for countries like US, who enjoy complete air supremacy when they fight. It's not something any sane Pakistani strategist will consider.

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

We should get few squadrons of j10 as insurance policy of F16s. J10 is already getting better with passing times. Newer version will do good job in this category.
I don't know, what is life time of f16s , and how many years we can depend on them. I don't want to see them as migs 21 s coffins after 2025.

 

[punit]

My man,

There is a limit to being thoughtless---and you have topped it all.

I am going to post a quote from another defense forum---and if you have any common sense or an iota of understanding left in you---you will change your thinking---


"
Julio Ramos said: ↑
Attack helicopters are more a tactical weapon than a scenario one. That means that they are not as useful as planes as a propaganda and, first of all, they lack the range to appear where they aren`t excpected .
It makes sense to hide weapons that could be useful in a scenario as the South China Sea conflict because they can be a bitter surprise to foreign nations ".


" Kwaigonegin replies

I agree with that notion .. things like tanks, helos etc are primarily tactical .. planes, bombers etc are both tactical and strategic therefore usually more secretive ".


China has basically put a lid on any leakage regarding its fighter aircraft---for all of them---there will be no news about which aircraft has what---unless the chinese want the news to be released.

@Tipu7 ----if you did not have the ability to understand that simple logic about the chinese keeping their product under the wrap---then your information is not worth posting material regarding the chinese equipment.

The americans don't care---they show off to the world what they have----match us if you can.

The chinese have already shown off too much---some of it they could not hide---like the aircraft---but the sub systems they can hide---their EW suites they can hide---.

What if the EW suite in the J20 is a true stolen copy of the one in the F22 or the one in the J10 a copy of one in the BLK60---.

So---for them---why to show it---why to jeopardize the life of someone who leaked the technical information.

By hiding the sub systems---they maybe saving the life of an accomplice---.

Americans are masters at deciphering the opponents equipment by the size and shape of the equipment from the technology available to the opponent.

Are the chinese trying to hide what they have achieved so far---it won't be a surprise.

My man---there is more to what meets the eye. Trust me on this----neither do you have the ability nor the resource to understand that and nor your buddy araz---who does not have an original of thought of his own and waves a print out and says---look this paper says this----then that is what it is.

Now---don't get me wrong---you can begin to understand---but you have to allow yourself to shatter the idols that you have created and those that you worship in your mind---. You have to break your CRUTCH.

Life is about learning---so begin to learn---.

but sir.. if u want to sell a car in market u have to reveal the features. what u are saying is good for domestic consumption but not for Intentional market.

 

[MastanKhan]

I think this is something that will suit India nicely and guarantee a quick Pakistani defeat.

The whole idea of cold start is based on making a decisive thrust in to an area in Pakistan that is least defended. The Pakistani counter to which is to leave nowhere vulnerable along the Indo-Pak border, and for that we need a big Army. In war time we won't have the luxury of moving troops and heavy equipment while under fire. The best PAF will be able to offer is some resistance to total IAF air supremacy. Now if we have a highly trained highly mobile elite force (which will be very expensive to assemble in the first place), all India needs to do is not strike where it is concentrated and hit the weak spot. By the time Pakistan mobilise this elite formation to counter the Indian thrust, India would have destroyed any local airfields and made it impossible for Pakistan to move this formation. Resulting in a sweet Indian victory. But that's exactly what you want, isn't it.
The kind of elite force you want for Pakistan is good for countries like US, who enjoy complete air supremacy when they fight. It's not something any sane Pakistani strategist will consider.

Hi,

We already have that capability---but our weakest link is the air force.