Italy takes India to int'l arbitration over marines

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Here too the time is 90 days but the case is quite complex.

1. Italians requested the case not be tried in Kerala where the incident occurred as the local population may be biased.

Indian Supreme court agreed but due to different reasons than bias (they couldn't admit to bias in judiciary can they?)

2. Supreme court directed NIA (National Investigative Agency) to investigate the case and file the chargesheet. NIA completed the investigations during the 90 days but then the drama started.

a. Italians then left for Italy after their Ambassador gave a sovereign guarantee that that they would return for trials,
b. Italian PM says Marines won't return and they would be tried in Italy.
c. Indian Supreme court gets pissed off and passes an order restricting Italian ambassador from leaving India as he had reneged on Sovereign Guarantee.
d. Italians blink and send Marines back to India after Indian Govt promises that would be not be charged under sections which have death penalty.
e. Italians played a brilliant game and outfoxed India as NIA can only investigate in cases like piracy and terrorism all of which have death penalty as possible punishment.
f. Italians then ask for whole investigation to be conducted again as NIA was wrongfully appointed as investigation agency.
g This April supreme court directed the Special court appointed to quickly try the case and complete the trial in minimum time,
f. Italians again file for stay asking more time till July, 2015 for preparation for their defense

The same Italians are now taking india for arbitration due to delay in trying the case while forgetting they themselves had asked for multiple stays.
.
Gandhi exists only when India wants to brag about peace and non violence at international forums thereafter he conveniently disappears from our collective memories

Brilliant...No charge sheet has been filed till date. How is Indian Supreme Court going to sustain this case?

There is also a valid case of denied Justice because Supreme Court is the final court of appeal. If they are handling this case then they have not followed the due process of law.

To add salt to the above mentioned point how can the Supreme Court take action against the Italian Ambassador? They can not charge an innocent person to be a criminal. Even if the guarantor is unable to produce the accused the 'zamanat zapt' and the guarantor can not give any more guaranties. They can not arrest the Ambassador he / she is protected under the International Law's. The most India can do is to expel and ask for Italy to send a new Ambassador of close the Embassy. But this is going to also have the same for the Indian missions in Italy.

Till the time India has the capital punishment till that time the Italian's will not feel confident on the Indian Rule of Law.

IMO this is getting complicated day by day...

It wont.Cowards have no place in the world.Non violence wont be of any good in the era where Pakistan is anything but peaceful.

Are we discussing Pakistan here ???

The OP is regarding Italy and India...

 

[VelocuR]

It is going to be very complicated case and painful for long discussion on this issues between India vs Italy.

Hopefully US will punish India for misusing judges on Italian marines.

"
Under UNCLOS, parties to a dispute can seek arbitration through an ad hoc panel or the creation of a special tribunal.

Other alternatives are to seek a judgement from the International Court of Justice in the Hague or the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, in Hamburg, Germany.

Italy's foreign ministry did not specify the exact procedure it was starting but said they would be making an immediate request for both the marines to be allowed to stay on home soil pending the outcome of the arbitration procedure.

Latorre has been in Italy since last year having been granted permission to leave India on health grounds due to a heart condition which required minor surgery.

Girone remains confined to Italy's embassy in Delhi pending a trial which Italian officials say has taken far too long to come to court.

The marines have denied shooting the fishermen deliberately but have conceded they mistook the fishing boat for a pirate vessel and fired what were supposed to be warning shots.
"

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

What Italy says doesn't matter as there are enough evidence that they are in Indian water.
Italian politicians makes matter worse neither this issue solved without so much fuss.
ICJ applied if Italy proved that their vessel was in international water and all arbitrary efforts failed.

Haven't they failed ??? Denied Justice? Arresting the Italian Ambassador? No Charge Sheet yet...

And Italians do enough bitching in EU is testament to that how their case are such strong.

The marines are not just Italian but also EU citizens...Now you the maths...

Even marine issue, french and germany given a warm welcome recently and they don't care what italy have issue with india or not.As long as India is an emerging power nothing can stop to achieve indian objective.

You have to understand that India is not pakistan

What you say about the warm treatment is correct but when it comes to common issues among the EU then they are going to be with Italy...Even if it has to be against the individual policies of the state.

Why do Indian's have to bring Pakistan in every single argument. Can you not for once stay focused to the issue at hand?

Think of this as a logical and legitimate argument between two adults keeping aside all other political differences regarding the flag of origin and present position.

 

[Spectre]

Brilliant...No charge sheet has been filed till date. How is Indian Supreme Court going to sustain this case?

There is also a valid case of denied Justice because Supreme Court is the final court of appeal. If they are handling this case then they have not followed the due process of law.

To add salt to the above mentioned point how can the Supreme Court take action against the Italian Ambassador? They can not charge an innocent person to be a criminal. Even if the guarantor is unable to produce the accused the 'zamanat zapt' and the guarantor can not give any more guaranties. They can not arrest the Ambassador he / she is protected under the International Law's. The most India can do is to expel and ask for Italy to send a new Ambassador of close the Embassy. But this is going to also have the same for the Indian missions in Italy.

Till the time India has the capital punishment till that time the Italian's will not feel confident on the Indian Rule of Law.

IMO this is getting complicated day by day...


Are we discussing Pakistan here ???

The OP is regarding Italy and India...

No one has arrested the Ambassador, it can't be done because of a thing called Diplomatic immunity. He was simply asked not to leave India as he is the guarantor and as such it is his duty to produce these marines so that he can stand trial. Arrest means specific meaning whereas in he is confined within four walls be it prison or his house.

To address your second issue, all due procedures were followed. Italians appealed to Supreme Court to change the venue. Supreme case decides of jurisdiction issues.

Chargesheet was filed for voluntary man slaughter in Kerala distric court by Kerala Police. Then again in special court set up by Supreme Court to try the case by NIA.

As such charge-sheet is in place, BUT validity of charge-sheet is in question because Italians have said NIA can't try the case. It is a legal mumble-jumble.

India is very conscious that all rules and procedures need to be followed and Indian Supreme Court always gives benefit of Doubt to defendant and ensures none of their rights are being infringed upon.

In this particular case as well as many other local cases corrupt and guilty people have taken advantage of this privilege and filed appeal after appeal, motions of stay and other legal tricks to delay the judgements

Brilliant...No charge sheet has been filed till date. How is Indian Supreme Court going to sustain this case?

There is also a valid case of denied Justice because Supreme Court is the final court of appeal. If they are handling this case then they have not followed the due process of law.

To add salt to the above mentioned point how can the Supreme Court take action against the Italian Ambassador? They can not charge an innocent person to be a criminal. Even if the guarantor is unable to produce the accused the 'zamanat zapt' and the guarantor can not give any more guaranties. They can not arrest the Ambassador he / she is protected under the International Law's. The most India can do is to expel and ask for Italy to send a new Ambassador of close the Embassy. But this is going to also have the same for the Indian missions in Italy.

Till the time India has the capital punishment till that time the Italian's will not feel confident on the Indian Rule of Law.

IMO this is getting complicated day by day...


Are we discussing Pakistan here ???

The OP is regarding Italy and India...

No one has arrested the Ambassador, it can't be done because of a thing called Diplomatic immunity. He was simply asked not to leave India as he is the guarantor and as such it is his duty to produce these marines so that he can stand trial. Arrest means specific meaning whereas in he is confined within four walls be it prison or his house.

To address your second issue, all due procedures were followed. Italians appealed to Supreme Court to change the venue. Supreme case decides of jurisdiction issues.

Chargesheet was filed for voluntary man slaughter in Kerala distric court by Kerala Police. Then again in special court set up by Supreme Court to try the case by NIA.

As such charge-sheet is in place, BUT validity of charge-sheet is in question because Italians have said NIA can't try the case. It is a legal mumble-jumble.

India is very conscious that all rules and procedures need to be followed and Indian Supreme Court always gives benefit of Doubt to defendant and ensures none of their rights are being infringed upon.

In this particular case as well as many other local cases corrupt and guilty people have taken advantage of this privilege and filed appeal after appeal, motions of stay and other legal tricks to delay the judgements

 

[Mr.Nair]

Haven't they failed ??? Denied Justice? Arresting the Italian Ambassador? No Charge Sheet yet...


The marines are not just Italian but also EU citizens...Now you the maths...



What you say about the warm treatment is correct but when it comes to common issues among the EU then they are going to be with Italy...Even if it has to be against the individual policies of the state.

Why do Indian's have to bring Pakistan in every single argument. Can you not for once stay focused to the issue at hand?

Think of this as a logical and legitimate argument between two adults keeping aside all other political differences regarding the flag of origin and present position.

This was not yesterday's case, it was dragging for the past 3 years.Italy is an EU partner right, have germany, france mentioned any thing on joint statements about this problem, No.So do you think that EU will force india to abide by Italy demand !

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

It is known ? Not talking about it is good or bad or anything, I'm interested in knowing what led to that conclusion.

1) Pro War speeches during election campaign.
2) Out reaching Indian Naval presence in South China Sea.
3) Out reaching Indian Naval Presence in the Pacific Ocean.
4) Pro war rhetoric and expansion of Indian Territory.
5) Mind set of the people is being changed towards war where as domestic problems are not taken care of.

 

[JanjaWeed]

Oh well...Indian justice system. Those two marines may as well make plans to settle in India for good..still a long way to go before their fate is decided.

 

[Spectre]

Oh well...Indian justice system. Those two marines may as well make plans to settle in India for good..still a long way to go before their fate is decided.

One of the marines is not in India, He was allowed to go to Italy for medical reasons and has been in Italy for more than six months. The second marine is comfortably staying in Italian Embassy not in a Jail.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

No one has arrested the Ambassador, it can't be done because of a thing called Diplomatic immunity. He was simply asked not to leave India as he is the guarantor and as such it is his duty to produce these marines so that he can stand trial. Arrest means specific meaning whereas in he is confined within four walls be it prison or his house.

To address your second issue, all due procedures were followed. Italians appealed to Supreme Court to change the venue. Supreme case decides of jurisdiction issues.

Chargesheet was filed for voluntary man slaughter in Kerala distric court by Kerala Police. Then again in special court set up by Supreme Court to try the case by NIA.

As such charge-sheet is in place, BUT validity of charge-sheet is in question because Italians have said NIA can't try the case. It is a legal mumble-jumble.

India is very conscious that all rules and procedures need to be followed and Indian Supreme Court always gives benefit of Doubt to defendant and ensures none of their rights are being infringed upon.

In this particular case as well as many other local cases corrupt and guilty people have taken advantage of this privilege and filed appeal after appeal, motions of stay and other legal tricks to delay the judgements

If the Ambassador is not allowed to move freely (out of India) this is considered arrest even though the word is not in it literary meaning. Infringement of his right of freedom is still a punishment.

The Change of venue would not have taken the jurisdiction of Session Court.. It would only mean that the Session Court of UP / Punjab / etc. in place of Kerala.

But if the Supreme Court wants to hear this directly and makes arrangements then it has reduced the number of Appeals.

Now NIA and Charge Sheet issue is also becoming a big issue.

This was not yesterday's case, it was dragging for the past 3 years.Italy is an EU partner right, have germany, france mentioned any thing on joint statements about this problem, No.So do you think that EU will force india to abide by Italy demand !

This is the issue it has not been solved for the past 3 years. They are not going to do individually till the case has been to the EU legal process. EU is going to what it feels is in the best interest of its citizens...

 

[Spectre]

If the Ambassador is not allowed to move freely (out of India) this is considered arrest even though the word is not in it literary meaning. Infringement of his right of freedom is still a punishment.

The Change of venue would not have taken the jurisdiction of Session Court.. It would only mean that the Session Court of UP / Punjab / etc. in place of Kerala.

But if the Supreme Court wants to hear this directly and makes arrangements then it has reduced the number of Appeals.

Now NIA and Charge Sheet issue is also becoming a big issue.


This is the issue it has not been solved for the past 3 years. They are not going to do individually till the case has been to the EU legal process. EU is going to what it feels is in the best interest of its citizens...

I am sorry if i wasn't clear but Supreme court is not hearing the case bhai.. It has set up a special court (which is similar in hierarchy to a session court) to hear the case. Normal procedure of appeals will follow. Special Court to high court to supreme court.

Supreme court has only decided in jurisdiction issue and when Italians filed a petition in supreme court directly to allow the marines to leave for Italy, supreme court allowed it. As Italy is represented by it's ambassador in India it asked the ambassador can you assure the court that they would come back for trial and ambassador asserted in positively by giving a sovereign guarantee. State of Italy was contractually bound to ensure return of Marines.

Italy defaulted on the guarantee. If you refer to legal dictionary - When a guarantee is forfeited then the underlying security can be seized. India cannot take Italy hostage but it can take the ambasador who represented Italy.

Diplomatic immunity does not Apply. The ambassador forfeited his diplomatic immunity when he gave sovereign guarantee and stayed in India as a security for return of the marines. When Italy defaulted India took the security.

I have tried to clarify the situation as much as I can. There are a lot of legal experts in India working on this, they have taken every possibility into account and ensured everything is done under Indian and International Laws and Treaty.

India is not all Bad

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Italy is obviously right

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

@Spectre I thought it was directly taken by the Supreme Court as being a High profile and urgent mater.

Now it is clear that the right of appeal still is available.

In Pakistan normally the cases of India are coated because they have many similarities but not all accounts are valid in Pakistan due to some Islamic provisions. Non the less the issues regarding the Indian Supreme Court are given equal respect.

 

[Rau]

I am sorry if i wasn't clear but Supreme court is not hearing the case bhai.. It has set up a special court (which is similar in hierarchy to a session court) to hear the case. Normal procedure of appeals will follow. Special Court to high court to supreme court.

Supreme court has only decided in jurisdiction issue and when Italians filed a petition in supreme court directly to allow the marines to leave for Italy, supreme court allowed it. As Italy is represented by it's ambassador in India it asked the ambassador can you assure the court that they would come back for trial and ambassador asserted in positively by giving a sovereign guarantee. State of Italy was contractually bound to ensure return of Marines.

Italy defaulted on the guarantee. If you refer to legal dictionary - When a guarantee is forfeited then the underlying security can be seized. India cannot take Italy hostage but it can take the ambasador who represented Italy.

Diplomatic immunity does not Apply. The ambassador forfeited his diplomatic immunity when he gave sovereign guarantee and stayed in India as a security for return of the marines. When Italy defaulted India took the security.

I have tried to clarify the situation as much as I can. There are a lot of legal experts in India working on this, they have taken every possibility into account and ensured everything is done under Indian and International Laws and Treaty.

India is not all Bad

very good and sensible reply.......Are you a lawyer....

 

[Mo12]

Good to see India not backing down. I would imagine China and Russia doing the same thing too.

Only if Pakistan could have done the same thing when Dawood killed a few Pakistanis.

 

[Luca1]

I am sorry if i wasn't clear but Supreme court is not hearing the case bhai.. It has set up a special court (which is similar in hierarchy to a session court) to hear the case. Normal procedure of appeals will follow. Special Court to high court to supreme court.

Supreme court has only decided in jurisdiction issue and when Italians filed a petition in supreme court directly to allow the marines to leave for Italy, supreme court allowed it. As Italy is represented by it's ambassador in India it asked the ambassador can you assure the court that they would come back for trial and ambassador asserted in positively by giving a sovereign guarantee. State of Italy was contractually bound to ensure return of Marines.

Italy defaulted on the guarantee. If you refer to legal dictionary - When a guarantee is forfeited then the underlying security can be seized. India cannot take Italy hostage but it can take the ambasador who represented Italy.

Diplomatic immunity does not Apply. The ambassador forfeited his diplomatic immunity when he gave sovereign guarantee and stayed in India as a security for return of the marines. When Italy defaulted India took the security.

I have tried to clarify the situation as much as I can. There are a lot of legal experts in India working on this, they have taken every possibility into account and ensured everything is done under Indian and International Laws and Treaty.

India is not all Bad

I think India should arrest the Italian ambassador until Italy surrender the other marine. If the Europeans response with force,India can show them the power of. Brahmos.