It Hurts Me To See Hinduism Going The Way Of Radical Islam

[Indiran Chandiran]

I have nothing against harmless mumbo-jumbo as long as it does not infringe upon my Constitutional rights. Once it does so, we have a problem.

And what exactly is interfering with your constitutional rights ?

 

[hussain0216]

Interesting. So you are saying the idols that were destroyed in Arabia were idols of Hindu gods.

I knew that Mitanni was a Hindu Kingdom, but seems like Hinduism also had its presence in the Arabian peninsula.



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Shiva was our first prophet, says Jamiat mufti

• Shares1.8k

DEEPAK GIDWANI | Fri, 20 Feb 2015-05:40am , Lucknow , DNA

A cleric and senior functionary of the Jamiat Ulema has raised a religious storm by stating that Lord Shiva was the first 'paigambar' (Prophet) of the Muslims, and that all Muslims are also the children of Shiva and Parvati. The statement – made in Ayodhya – has expectedly set off a huge controversy with Islamic clerics getting furious over this alleged "bigotry". Many Hindu saints have, however, welcomed the statement, only adding fuel to the fire.

"Like all citizens of China are called Chinese, and those living in Japan, Japanese, all those living in Hindustan are recognised as Hindus all over the world," says the cleric Mufti Muhammad Ilyas. He carries his rather simplistic logic further, saying: "Muslims are also the children of Shiva and Parvati. We are "sanatani" like Hindus."

Wily nily, the Maulana has only toed the line taken by the saffron brigade, voiced in so many words recently by RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat. The statement, beamed on TV channels all through the day, has come as a virtual bolt from the blue for Islamic clerics, already screaming blue murder.

"This is totally ridiculous," nonagenarian Hashim Ansari, the oldest party in the ongoing Ayodhya shrine dispute, almost bursts out before the media. "Clerics like him read the Quran but don't understand or follow it at all," he said. "In any case, Muslims don't regard the Jamiat as 'ulema'," he asserted.

Mufti Mukarram Ahmed, Imam of Fatehpuri Masjid, also rejected Iliyas's statements. "What he has said, is totally wrong and unacceptable. It's nowhere written in our holy book. This could be his political statement," Mukarram said. "We rever only the 'nabis' (Prophets) mentioned in the Quran," he added.

Vice-president of the All India Muslim Personal Law Board and much-respected Shia cleric Maulana Kalbe Sadiq said, "This Maulana should first learn the basics of both Hinduism and Islam. Clerics should not make such irresponsible statments about religion."

On the other hand, prominent Hindu priests of Ayodhya have welcomed the statement. "What the Maulana has said is backed by facts. It's recorded in our scriptures and mythology," says Mahant Janmejaya Sharan. "Maulana Iliyas is right. This should be welcomed by Muslims, too. It will bring us together like brothers," says Mahant Satyendra Das, chief priest of the disputed Ram temple in Ayodhya.

Maulana Iliyas was in Ayodhya on Thursday as part of a delegation of the Jamiat Ulema to urge saints to participate in a conference on communal harmony on February 27 in Balrampur (east UP). Reportedly, the conference could also consider a motion on the subject of Hindus and Muslims being the children of the same set of parents.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-shiva-was-our-first-prophet-says-jamiat-mufti-2062519

it was all paganism of one sort or the other

Upon the will of God it was ended,we can't allow pagan idols back now can we

 

[Jacob Martin]

And what exactly is interfering with your constitutional rights ?

https://sabrangindia.in/article/ser...nd-freedoms-guaranteed-constitution-us-report

There is a Report (PDF) referenced in it. Read the report. If you have any doubts we can discuss.

 

[Levina]

That is, unfortunately, where the definition of radical Islam begins as well - as a way of life as opposed to a system of personal belief. Once something is defined as a way of life, spillover into the political realm is inevitable and you can say goodbye to the secular identity of India.

This is a remnant of a 7000 year old culture.
Don't compare us to anything else.

 

[Jacob Martin]

This is a remnant of a 7000 year old culture.
Don't compare us to anything else.

Is that pride or chauvinism?

Without going into the factual accuracy of your claim (as you have sufficiently caveated it by the word "remnant"), why exactly should anyone pride themselves on something merely because it is ancient?

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

https://sabrangindia.in/article/ser...nd-freedoms-guaranteed-constitution-us-report

There is a Report (PDF) referenced in it. Read the report. If you have any doubts we can discuss.

You seriously expect me to peruse some rag published by a dubious NGO of the US report on religious freedom ?

What's wrong with you ?

That may be the gospel to your lot .I don't see any pressing need to conform to them.Neither does the vast majority of Indians , nor the GoI nor the Parliament sees any merit or even remotely recognise the right of the US Congress to pronounce on the state of religious freedom in India .

Just another thing.It's about you shifting the goal posts .To begin with it was your response to @Levina 's post where she made a point about Hinduism being a way of life to which your counter was to draw a parallel to radical Islam stressing that once it's justified as a way of life there'd be an inevitable spillover into the political realm thereby endangering the secular fabric of India .You never got into the specifics but behaved as a classic waffler does - make general statements more for effect than anything else and scoot - specifics be damned .

Next , when I countered your post on how ,though the sacred literature of the Sanatan Dharmi specifically provide religious cover to violence even murder or mass murder depending on your take on the Bhagwad Geeta but that centuries of pacifism had caused cessation by its adherents from invoking these sacred texts for such drastic action you come up with a lame - I have nothing against harmless mumbo jumbo if they don't infringe on my constitutional rights .

When asked to spell out your constitutional rights under threat - voila ,it's deja vu all over again .You pull out your ace - A US report on religious freedom.

Seems to me you're another Hindu baiter with a single point agenda of discrediting everything you perceive Hinduism stands for and that the vast majority of Indians who obviously are adherents of one particular religion ought to seek the goodwill of the religious minorities for mutual CO existence .

Thanks for the unintended laughs .

 

[Tamilnadu]

it was all paganism of one sort or the other

Upon the will of God it was ended,we can't allow pagan idols back now can we

Will of god ? You have been fooled mate if you believe in god and hate so much in life.

God was creating of few wise men to put a fear in the minds of savages,nothing more nothing less.show me someone in the world who has seen god.unknown always scares the sh!t out of people,thats why god was created.

 

[Jacob Martin]

You seriously expect me to peruse some rag published by a dubious NGO of the US report on religious freedom ?

What's wrong with you ?

That may be the gospel to your lot .I don't see any pressing need to conform to them.Neither does the vast majority of Indians , nor the GoI nor the Parliament sees any merit or even remotely recognise the right of the US Congress to pronounce on the state of religious freedom in India .

Just another thing.It's about you shifting the goal posts .To begin with it was your response to @Levina 's post where she made a point about Hinduism being a way of life to which your counter was to draw a parallel to radical Islam stressing that once it's justified as a way of life there'd be an inevitable spillover into the political realm thereby endangering the secular fabric of India .You never got into the specifics but behaved as a classic waffler does - make general statements more for effect than anything else and scoot - specifics be damned .

Next , when I countered your post on how ,though the sacred literature of the Sanatan Dharmi specifically provide religious cover to violence even murder or mass murder depending on your take on the Bhagwad Geeta but that centuries of pacifism had caused cessation by its adherents from invoking these sacred texts for such drastic action you come up with a lame - I have nothing against harmless mumbo jumbo if they don't infringe on my constitutional rights .

When asked to spell out your constitutional rights under threat - voila ,it's deja vu all over again .You pull out your ace - A US report on religious freedom.

Seems to me you're another Hindu baiter with a single point agenda of discrediting everything you perceive Hinduism stands for and that the vast majority of Indians who obviously are adherents of one particular religion ought to seek the goodwill of the religious minorities for mutual CO existence .

Thanks for the unintended laughs .

Just as I thought. Religious person who believes in outlandish mumbo-jumbo trying hard to engage with the real world. First get rid of all the religious nonsense clogging your brain, and you may then have some hope. Have a good day.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

Just as I thought. Religious person who believes in outlandish mumbo-jumbo trying hard to engage with the real world. First get rid of all the religious nonsense clogging your brain, and you may then have some hope. Have a good day.

Good, you had a look in the mirror .Saves me a lot of bother.

 

[Jacob Martin]

Good, you had a look in the mirror .Saves me a lot of bother.

Your rhetorical demagoguery may work like a charm with the semi-educated mass that forms your party's loyal support base. It just doesn't happen to cut it with anyone else.

About the report, without reading it you are in no position to have a debate about constitutional rights vis-a-vis religion. I know you think that clever-sounding arguments made on the spur are good enough to deal with anything, but unless you know what exactly our constitution says about religious rights, you are ignorant about the matter - your knowledge of dubious texts notwithstanding. Do not engage with me by throwing laymen questions about legal issues and expect to be taken seriously.

As for what @Levina wrote and my response to it, it has a context that you are clearly unaware of. In 1995, the Supreme Court in Dr. Ramesh Yeshwant Prabhoo pronounced as obiter dictum that Hindutva is not a religion but a way of life, something that has become an albatross around our collective necks, and the basis for many false claims. So while I am impressed by your elementary knowledge of debating tactics and logical fallacies, it was totally misplaced.

As for your conclusion about being a Hindu-baiter, I am non-religious and bait all religions equally. It just so happens that the idiocy in front of me at the moment is Hindu by description.

It is really easy to throw arguments at people, bit unless you show the ability to read detailed reports and critique them on merit, you deserve no further response. I hope we are clear on that.

 

[Kabira]

Interesting. So you are saying the idols that were destroyed in Arabia were idols of Hindu gods.

I knew that Mitanni was a Hindu Kingdom, but seems like Hinduism also had its presence in the Arabian peninsula.



View attachment 392370

View attachment 392372

Shiva was our first prophet, says Jamiat mufti

• Shares1.8k

DEEPAK GIDWANI | Fri, 20 Feb 2015-05:40am , Lucknow , DNA

A cleric and senior functionary of the Jamiat Ulema has raised a religious storm by stating that Lord Shiva was the first 'paigambar' (Prophet) of the Muslims, and that all Muslims are also the children of Shiva and Parvati. The statement – made in Ayodhya – has expectedly set off a huge controversy with Islamic clerics getting furious over this alleged "bigotry". Many Hindu saints have, however, welcomed the statement, only adding fuel to the fire.

"Like all citizens of China are called Chinese, and those living in Japan, Japanese, all those living in Hindustan are recognised as Hindus all over the world," says the cleric Mufti Muhammad Ilyas. He carries his rather simplistic logic further, saying: "Muslims are also the children of Shiva and Parvati. We are "sanatani" like Hindus."

Wily nily, the Maulana has only toed the line taken by the saffron brigade, voiced in so many words recently by RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat. The statement, beamed on TV channels all through the day, has come as a virtual bolt from the blue for Islamic clerics, already screaming blue murder.

"This is totally ridiculous," nonagenarian Hashim Ansari, the oldest party in the ongoing Ayodhya shrine dispute, almost bursts out before the media. "Clerics like him read the Quran but don't understand or follow it at all," he said. "In any case, Muslims don't regard the Jamiat as 'ulema'," he asserted.

Mufti Mukarram Ahmed, Imam of Fatehpuri Masjid, also rejected Iliyas's statements. "What he has said, is totally wrong and unacceptable. It's nowhere written in our holy book. This could be his political statement," Mukarram said. "We rever only the 'nabis' (Prophets) mentioned in the Quran," he added.

Vice-president of the All India Muslim Personal Law Board and much-respected Shia cleric Maulana Kalbe Sadiq said, "This Maulana should first learn the basics of both Hinduism and Islam. Clerics should not make such irresponsible statments about religion."

On the other hand, prominent Hindu priests of Ayodhya have welcomed the statement. "What the Maulana has said is backed by facts. It's recorded in our scriptures and mythology," says Mahant Janmejaya Sharan. "Maulana Iliyas is right. This should be welcomed by Muslims, too. It will bring us together like brothers," says Mahant Satyendra Das, chief priest of the disputed Ram temple in Ayodhya.

Maulana Iliyas was in Ayodhya on Thursday as part of a delegation of the Jamiat Ulema to urge saints to participate in a conference on communal harmony on February 27 in Balrampur (east UP). Reportedly, the conference could also consider a motion on the subject of Hindus and Muslims being the children of the same set of parents.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-shiva-was-our-first-prophet-says-jamiat-mufti-2062519

Mittani wasn't hindu kingdom. Maybe indo-aryan speakers but not hindu. Hinduism is mix of indigenous culture and foreign aryans. While Mittani wouldn't be influenced by indigenous culture of India at all considering they never didn't migrated from India.

 

[Shivani87]

Radical form of Hinduism has been here for sometime to say "going the way of radical Islam" is a bit insulting.

True. We should reserve such insults to Hindus only when they start killing mlechas all over the world, make up apologetic theories to protect terrorists, majority supports inhuman punishments etc. Two three murders by a few morons is insufficient to compare with radical islam that kills literally 10000 times more people.

Go take your statue to ram to Oman/or the UAE both of which are muslim countries and both of which have Sharia law or any other muslim country, if you are so concerned my friend.

Nice change of tune after proven wrong.

Anyway same applies to muslims. If they are so concerned in ANY non muslim country, they can just go to Saudi Arabia.

 

[Lotus_stalk]

No no no Hindu warrior, do it now declare the hindutva state

You never know Pakistan can be unpredictable we might fire 100+ nuclear warheads at you snd burn your hindutva rastra into ashes

Do it now and show your hindu pride!!

Lol Niazi buckled and surrendered with 93000 soldiers as we predicted.

Enemy ought either to be indulged or utterly destroyed, for if you merely offend them then they take vengeance, but if you injure them greatly they are unable to retaliate, so that the injury done to a enemy ought to be such that vengeance cannot be feared.
- Niccolo Machiavelli

it was all paganism of one sort or the other

Upon the will of God it was ended,we can't allow pagan idols back now can we

when Crude oil dries up in a few decades, We will again test their resolve

 

[Hulk]

Wrong, Christian/Hindu/etc expats are free to practice their religion freely.



What does this have to do with anything about my comment? Demographics has nothing to do with freedom of religion.

Also

Bosnia 50% Muslim
Albania 50% Muslim

Just to name 2



All of them enjoy equal rights. Also proselytizing has nothing to do with freedom of religion. Sri Lanka banned evangelizing too.

But if you must know than pretty much the majority of Muslim countries allow proselytizing. Look at places like Bosnia,Albania,Turkey,Egypt,etc

You are probably talking about Saudi Arabia of Mars. My brother lives there, they are not even allowed to celebrate diwali. Almost all countries have laws against non Muslims.

 

[Gadkari]

If the present interaction in the economic realm has resulted in the kind of deficit it has , I shudder to think how deep you'd want the "engagement " to be .

Apart from this , the non tariff trade barriers erected by China on areas we hold an advantage in viz software ,pharma ,etc are another source of complaints.

While India does need Chinese investment , I suspect it's not out of our own free will and pleasure that we are welcoming them .

I do not think we need to adopt such a negative mindset towards their money. How does it matter if the FDI is from the US or china ?

Our response to a deficit cannot be less of engagement. If anything we need to act to improve our productivity and basic infrastructure, because if today its china, tomorrow it will be somebody else.

We must engage them on our own free will and negotiate a mutually beneficial trade policy.

Part of it is a carrot and stick policy we're following or enduring to be more precise , part of it is a kind of tribute to keep them in good humour and maintain the policy of detente till we manage to build up our own financial and technical muscle part from our military muscle to deter any military misadventure .

Expect them to act in their best interest, and we are expected to act in our best interest.

The idea is to find common grounds and establish a framework for a win win policy. Use their strength to build up our own financial and technical muscle.

Having said that , we have profited from the by products of this largely one way trade too.Peoole look at the huge trade deficit in China's favour .But cold nos apart , to cite just an example has anyone calculated the various economic benefits of smart mobiles or laptops that the Chinese export to India .The booming of e commerce that such devices support and the growth in the services sector that results in better GDP ( nominal figures ) - all largely intangibles apart from tangibles like the Customs and Import duties that such imports fetch for our exchequer .

Which is precisely my point. That is just they way how free market works and inevitable adds to capacity building and enhancement. Any exchange is always a two way street, unless one of the party is extraordinarily dense.

I don't think China sees India as a partner but more as a rival to be kept under the cosh.

That realisation , however small it's adherents , has always been present in India including with Nehru except that he followed the policy of appeasement to buy peace and then impetuously rushed into an hastily conceived Forward Policy with disastrous consequences .

We don't have and neither should we harbour any fond hopes of Hindi Chini bhai bhai too .In this respect we ought to be like the Japanese who throughout their history have always been rather insouciant of the Chinese .We seem to be emulating them .A bit late in the day but welcome all the same .

Use them and take their help where we can but with our guard up.Their intentions are never benign .Not with us and neither with their iron brother Pakistan .

China will see the image we project to them. It is for us to manage our image.

We do not need appeasement, but identify areas of mutual benefit. Nehru was a fool so its pointless to talk about his stupidity and waste our time.

Path to to hell is paved with "good intentions", so let their intentions be damned. Let us just be clear about OUR intentions and aims and goals.

Your rhetorical demagoguery may work like a charm with the semi-educated mass that forms your party's loyal support base. It just doesn't happen to cut it with anyone else.

About the report, without reading it you are in no position to have a debate about constitutional rights vis-a-vis religion. I know you think that clever-sounding arguments made on the spur are good enough to deal with anything, but unless you know what exactly our constitution says about religious rights, you are ignorant about the matter - your knowledge of dubious texts notwithstanding. Do not engage with me by throwing laymen questions about legal issues and expect to be taken seriously.

As for what @Levina wrote and my response to it, it has a context that you are clearly unaware of. In 1995, the Supreme Court in Dr. Ramesh Yeshwant Prabhoo pronounced as obiter dictum that Hindutva is not a religion but a way of life, something that has become an albatross around our collective necks, and the basis for many false claims. So while I am impressed by your elementary knowledge of debating tactics and logical fallacies, it was totally misplaced.

As for your conclusion about being a Hindu-baiter, I am non-religious and bait all religions equally. It just so happens that the idiocy in front of me at the moment is Hindu by description.

It is really easy to throw arguments at people, bit unless you show the ability to read detailed reports and critique them on merit, you deserve no further response. I hope we are clear on that.

So your logic is that any debate on the Indian constitutions has to be within the framework of a US Report ?

And you expect Indians to take you and your white worship seriously ?

That SC judgement is no Albatross around "our collective" neck, it just an albatross around your christian supremacist neck (yeah, we know you will now tell us you are a Brahmin ) .

Full marks to @Indiran Chandiran for making a quick study of you and your dodgy ways.

Now let us see you bait Islam and Xtianity with the same Enthusiasm ......... needless to say, one will be hard pressed to find anything similar.

There are plenty of reports and critiques found in the Indian media and by Indian agencies. Feel free to pick them up and start the debate. LOL at your pretense.