Isn’t ‘Illegal Bangladeshi’ Racist Shorthand For Bengali Speaking Muslims In Assam

[Joe Shearer]

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The same Brahmi-derived script is used for several languages, and was a common alternative to the Nagari version that is now used for Hindi, as far back as the eleventh century at least, although this script or a predecessor has been used for the Kamarupa Inscriptions as far back as the 7th century. It was used for Bengali, Assamese and, in later years, for variations found in Manipur. The script was in no way connected organically with the language Bengali, until as late as the 18th century, and the centralisation which happened as a consequence of British research into the language. Iswarchandra Vidyasagar's name is associated with this adoption of the script for Bengali as a standard, but it is possible that the general direction was set by the Fort William College and the first researches into Bengali by scholars from that college, assisted by Sanskrit scholars.

OK and so??

So having the same script means Jack Squat. It does not prove that Assamese and Bengali are the same language, any more than it proves that Maithil (talking of their script Maithilakshar, very similar to Bengali, Assamese and Manipuri script) and Bengali are the same language.

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The Sanskritisation of Bengali and the purging of Persian words that took place then is a separate matter; this misunderstanding of the British, guided by Sanskrit-oriented pundits, led to the reaction known as Muhammedan Bengali, or Mussulman Bengali, which existed earlier but not in particularly widespread a form.

And how is it relevant to the topic?

It shows that (a) the script was a superficial attribute of the language. Bengali used other scripts, and this one came to be the standard only because of an effort at standardisation by the British and the Sanskrit pundits. So - again - no use saying that the script is the same, or almost the same; that is irrelevant.
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That is for the script. For the language, what we need to know is that all these eastern languages were derivatives of 'eastern' Prakrit, or Magadhi Prakrit, which was the Prakrit that was taught to newcomers to the language. In contrast, Gujarati, Rajasthani, Marathi, Punjabi and other western languages of the Indo-Aryan family were derived from 'western' Prakrit, or Suraseni. Assamese drew apart and achieved linguistic autonomy as far back as the 7th century.

Care to explain the bold part? Even the Assamese members here didn't go on to claim such thing.

"Even the Assamese" are not experts in linguistics and history. They are simple members who can smell a fake, but don't know how to contradict him.

The bold part is clear to anybody who has simple English comprehension. If you couldn't understand it, just use some swear words, and we will know that you couldn't understand simple stuff.
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Thirdly, the impression conveyed that until recent years, Bengali itself was one large, happy family is an egregious myth. Magadhi Prakrit itself split into perhaps four parts, of which one was the predecessor of modern-day Assamese, right at the outset, perhaps as much as a millennium ago, but probably around the time of the Bhakti movement in Bengal. Three of these splits coalesced into modern-day Bengali. The fourth was used as a foundation for modern-day Assamese.

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So what's the name of the fourth part of Magadhi that is the predecessor of Assamese? If I'm not wrong Magadhi Prakrit evolved into five groups, Bihari languages, Tharu Languages, Oriya Languages, Halbic Languages and the Bengali-Assamese languages. Bengali-Assamese languages don't have any language groups and modern Bengali, Assamese and other North East languages are direct descendants of it.

Wrong again.

Look it up; I suggest Suniti Chatterjee, but there are others as well.

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Read up on the Kamrup Inscriptions before you make statements like that.

Kamarup inscriptions? You mean the Chojapod? That's also a classic example of ancient Bengali.

No, genius, I do not mean the Chorjapod. Those are sometime between the 10th and 12th centuries AD.

By ignoring the hint, you've just painted yourself into a corner. All the Assamese members must be laughing at you. As well they should.

I can't help feeling how accurately my words addressed to iajdani fit the situation:

At the moment, you stand a monument to Bengali provincialism and smug, self-centred ignorance​

I'm not too knowledgeable on languages, but as a Sylheti speaker, I understood completely what the Assamese member said. Only difference is, he added the letter x at the front of some of the words.

One passage was pure Bengali. Don't kid yourself.

 

[extra terrestrial]

So having the same script means Jack Squat. It does not prove that Assamese and Bengali are the same language, any more than it proves that Maithil (talking of their script Maithilakshar, very similar to Bengali, Assamese and Manipuri script) and Bengali are the same language.

Well you were supposed to refute my statement about Assamese being considered a dialect of Bengali before being recognized as an official language which was replied to you and you are yet to refute it. I don't know why you are discussing about the scripts, I did make a comment about Assamese using Bengali script while replying to Zootinali but that was not the base of my arguments. I don't know much about Maithili and Manipuri so can't comment on them.

The bold part is clear to anybody who has simple English comprehension. If you couldn't understand it, just use some swear words, and we will know that you couldn't understand simple stuff.

Yeah I have bad English comprehension, can't help it! Perhaps, only the native English speakers of India can understand how the distinguishing between Eastern and Western Prakrit proves the linguistic autonomy of Assamese in the 7th century.

Wrong again.
Look it up; I suggest Suniti Chatterjee, but there are others as well.

I tried, Assamese at best is considered a direct descendant of Eastern Indo-Aryan languages from which Bengali also descended.

No, genius, I do not mean the Chorjapod. Those are sometime between the 10th and 12th centuries AD

And so what? Even the Kamarup inscriptions are considered predecessor of both Bengali and Assamese.

At the moment, you stand a monument to Bengali provincialism and smug, self-centred ignorance

We call it Bengali "nationalism" not "provincialism".

 

[Joe Shearer]

There is nothing so pathetic as watching someone try in vain that he was right all along, or that he was never wrong, by claiming that he never said something in the first place.

How did the Bengali script (so-called) come into the picture? See below, for @extra terrestrial trying to bluff his way through, without knowing the essentials:
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lol you have never even heard assamese .. it is derived from prakrit, has same root as bangla but assamese has tibeto-burman influence..

Actually I do know Assamese a bit, moi Oxomia jani. I've met a number of Assamese people here in Bangladesh.

Even Chittagongian has some Tibeto-Burman influences but still it's considered a dialect of Bengali and rightly so.

Assamese doesn't even have its own script and has to borrow Bengali script.

It didn't stop there.

Look at what happened next, when his mistake about the script being similar proving that the languages were identical was nailed; he pretended that he hadn't got the point.

The same Brahmi-derived script is used for several languages, and was a common alternative to the Nagari version that is now used for Hindi, as far back as the eleventh century at least, although this script or a predecessor has been used for the Kamarupa Inscriptions as far back as the 7th century. It was used for Bengali, Assamese and, in later years, for variations found in Manipur. The script was in no way connected organically with the language Bengali, until as late as the 18th century, and the centralisation which happened as a consequence of British research into the language. Iswarchandra Vidyasagar's name is associated with this adoption of the script for Bengali as a standard, but it is possible that the general direction was set by the Fort William College and the first researches into Bengali by scholars from that college, assisted by Sanskrit scholars.

OK and so??

And so? indeed. If his "proof" to @zootinali was not based on script, as one factor, this wouldn't have been written.

But nothing was left undone; he got his answer:

So having the same script means Jack Squat. It does not prove that Assamese and Bengali are the same language, any more than it proves that Maithil (talking of their script Maithilakshar, very similar to Bengali, Assamese and Manipuri script) and Bengali are the same language.

So much for the "script" question.

Let us now look at this scholar analysing the dialectal character of Assam through an astute analysis of that state's legislation.

 

[mujhaidind]

Don't get it? Which is which? I found your earlier post quite informative, but either you are denying that there are no illegal Indians working in Bangladesh!! Or you actually don't know about this.

We Indian Muslims welcome our Bangladeshi brethren to our land. Ignore the hinduvadi trolls.

 

[zootinali]

Yes and I'm still calling Assamese a dialect of Bengali and it's the truth. Assamese began to develop independently only during the 20th century.

Do you even read wiki about the topics you want to discuss about . it is a nice and very informative website to acquaint oneself about various subjects , before coming to a forum to make ludicrous claims.
here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assamese_language
it will clear lots of confusion for you..

We Indian Muslims welcome our Bangladeshi brethren to our land. Ignore the hinduvadi trolls.

.....retard

 

[Joe Shearer]

The next piece of scholarly merit from @extra terrestrial: I hope everybody has their popcorn ready, he doesn't allow the suspense and tension to flag for a moment.

He says plaintively:

Well you were supposed to refute my statement about Assamese being considered a dialect of Bengali before being recognized as an official language which was replied to you and you are yet to refute it.

Oh, yes, he did flatten all of us (but me in particular) with his conclusive proof that Assamese was not an official language at all in the beginning, that Bengali was, until substituted by suitable legislation in 1960.

Now THAT is scholarly.

But scholarly apart, what are the facts?

For starters, here is the relevant section of the constitution (of India, just in case someone wants to know):

An extract from Article 345:

Provided that, until the Legislature of the State otherwise provides by law, the English language shall continue to be used for those official purposes within the State for which it was being used immediately before the commencement of this Constitution.

So what did Assam do? It sought to become mono-lingual:

He said though the Assam government had issued a notification way back in 1960 directing use of Assamese in all government communications in the Brahmaputra valley, Bengali in the Barak Valley and Karbi in Karbi Anglong, with Assamese as the second language, none of the districts had implemented the act

This was purely to fight off the Bengali chauvinism of the Barak Valley, of Karimganj, Silchar and Hailakandi. There was no issue of Assamese being considered a dialect of Bengali. That is a figment of our friend's historical imagination.

 

[wolfschanzze]

It's about time we fenced our border and mines the no mans land.
This illegal Bangladeshi influx is creating a law and order situation , with JIhadis using this route recently a pakistani was caught at the bangladeshi border with FICN( fake indian currency notes) worth 83,000$
We don't want these illegals, we have our people to take care of first,Bangladesh being a nation should take care of its people, instead of dumping them on us.

 

[Saiful Islam]

We Indian Muslims welcome our Bangladeshi brethren to our land. Ignore the hinduvadi trolls.

Are you the only Indian Muslim on this forum? No other Indian Muslim seems to speak up about the Bangladeshi Muslims getting murdered in Assam land.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Are you the only Indian Muslim on this forum? No other Indian Muslim seems to speak up about the Bangladeshi Muslims getting murdered in Assam land.

There are no Bangladesh Muslims in Assam. Only native Assamese Muslims, settled there from before the arrival of the Ahom, and a few from Bangladesh encouraged to enter by the British in their time.

 

[TopCat]

Ahom people came to NE in 13 century long after Bengali developed to its current form. They never even encountered or had remotely known what Pakrit was. They learned Indo-Aryan group of language from, the LOCAL. And who are those locals? May be somebody related to @Joe Shearer ?
Now dont come back with the weird proposition like they learned from Khasis, Santal etc or a group of people who extinct . LOL

Ahom people want a separate language so that they can keep Assam off limit to Bengalis. So they renamed a Bengali dialect to something called Assamese language which is not their language to start with.

 

[scorpionx]

According to Suniti Kumar Chatterjee, "Dialects are Independent of literary speech; as such, East Bengali dialects, North Bengali dialects (with which Assamese is to be associated) and West Bengali dialects are not only independent of one another, but also they are not, as it is popularly believed in Bengal, derived from literary Bengali, the Sadhu Bhasa."

There are plenty of authoritative material available on Internet but I am afraid, those are not the cure of stubbornness.

 

[mujhaidind]

Are you the only Indian Muslim on this forum? No other Indian Muslim seems to speak up about the Bangladeshi Muslims getting murdered in Assam land.

They support you but avoid posting due to Hinduvadi trolls.

We even protested killings of Bangladeshi Muslim in Assam at Azad Maidan. I even partcipated in that rally. Btw Muslims have ever raised issue of Bangladeshi immigrant. So you all are welcome to come and stay here. More diversity more good for India.

 

[mujhaidind]

.....retard

Shut up Islamaphobe! I am tired of you all Hinduvadis. Assamese will be a minority in Assam in 10 years. Then you won't find it easy to kil our Muslim brothers in Assam.

We have already 50million or 70 million Bangladeshis in India. In 10 years the way things are going they will cross 100 million. Inshallah!

Then you one can even speak of deporting them. If only we had Mamta as our PM things would be so better. She would allow visa free travel to her Bangladeshi brothers and sisters. Even offer them necessary documents on arrival to get an Indian citizenship.

But we have communal powers ruling but don't worry in 10 years hopefully we will have more Bangladeshis Muslims in India than in Bangladesh.

Ameen!

 

[mujhaidind]

There are no Bangladesh Muslims in Assam. Only native Assamese Muslims, settled there from before the arrival of the Ahom, and a few from Bangladesh encouraged to enter by the British in their time.

Yea once the enter territory of India they become Indian citizens. Are you a Muslim?

 

[INDIC]

Ahom people came to NE in 13 century long after Bengali developed to its current form. They never even encountered or had remotely known what Pakrit was. They learned Indo-Aryan group of language from, the LOCAL. And who are those locals? May be somebody related to @Joe Shearer ?
Now dont come back with the weird proposition like they learned from Khasis, Santal etc or a group of people who extinct . LOL

Ahom people want a separate language so that they can keep Assam off limit to Bengalis. So they renamed a Bengali dialect to something called Assamese language which is not their language to start with.

It means Ahoms assimilated in the local culture of Assam and there is Indo-Aryan and Tibeto-Burmese element in Assamese culture since ancient times as recorded in ancient history of Kamrupa/Pragjyotishpur. You mean Bihu dance is Bengali culture .

Yea once the enter territory of India they become Indian citizens. Are you a Muslim?

retard, If wishes were wings even donkeys would have flied.