Islam's image: reformation and makeover

[fallstuff]

That raises an interesting question: is the 'other' forgiving of Christianity because it has reformed, or simply because it dominates the world financially, technologically, militarily and culturally?

It's hard to hold a grudge against your banker, your teacher, your policeman or your favorite entertainer.

Judaism has also had a reformation, but Israeli politics is dominated more by hardliners, including ultra-Orthodox fundamentalists. Yet countries, including India, want to do business with them, partly because they have excellent technology and can provide benefits to their partners.

So, while I agree that Islam needs a reformation, for its own good as much as for the rest of the world, I am not sure that it will be enough to garner respect from the world.

China has always been respected, in a nebulous way, for its ancient culture but proper recognition and respect only came recently with its economic might. Same is true, to a lesser degree, about India.

Sunni, the dominant sect is non-hirearchical, which means you don't have a group of mosques controlled by one diocese (district). The mosques are independant. Isalm is not an organized religion like Christianity. Crusaders were blessed by the pope, the folks fighting crusaders were not part of an organized muslim movement. It is almost same today even after a thousand years. In US there is organized Catholic church, Southern Baptist church, and other organized church that also holds conference/meeting between different denominaions. No such thing exist in Islam.

Some folks look down on Christianity because they believe that its been compromised. They believe as mere mortals we can't edit words from God.

 

[Thomas]

How are you going to bring reform where the minority (radical Islam) holds the hostage the majority? Pakistan just recently tried somthing as simple as changing the blasphemy law so it couldn't be used as a tool to wrongly persecute. And that attempt failed miserably becuase of the radicals.

 

[jayron]

Lets see if you can get your answer from the picture below.

The church tolerated the holocaust but the Plaestenian grand mufti Mohammad Amin al-Husayni encouraged it and collaborated with the Nazis.

Mohammad Amin al-Husayni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[CardSharp]

In fact China is the same, I suggest to Muslim friends concerned about China's experience since 1840, I mean attention to China's civilization, ideological change, we struggle, then it might be helpful.

So we all understand. You mean to say "our Muslim friends should study how China fell into decline under foreign domination during the 1840 onwards and what China did to recover from this domination, by changing ideology and changing China."

Correct?

 

[VelocuR]

Christianity itself fighting and argued with other Christian but they learn to respect each other in order to get along to support country technologically, financially, industrially and globalizationally. For instance, Europe is the long history of blood wars next doors. They learned many lesson to step forward for a betterment on next generations. West took this opportunity.

 

[fallstuff]

It is. Almost half of the world's Muslims are from (undivided) India.

The point is if Hindus were not tolerated , it would be all muslim nation. When someone says Islam can not stand other religion that means other religions get wiped out, but that is not the case in India or Spain under Muslim rule.

In Spain there was inquisition by Queen Issaabella. Cruelty was redifined. Jews and muslims were all kicked out. When crusaders reached Jerusalem they killed everybody. Three ancient civilizations in Latin America went exticnt besause of the Spanish invaders.

You sir before you feel free to bless the forum with your posts, need to read up more first.

 

[CardSharp]

How are you going to bring reform where the minority (radical Islam) holds the hostage the majority? Pakistan just recently tried somthing as simple as changing the blasphemy law so it couldn't be used as a tool to wrongly persecute. And that attempt failed miserably becuase of the radicals.

A strong government and the rule of law to punish acts of religious terror.

 

[Aslan]

The church tolerated the holocaust but the Plaestenian grand mufti Mohammad Amin al-Husayni encouraged it and collaborated with the Nazis.

Mohammad Amin al-Husayni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One was as guilty as other, if you want to defend the pope by accusing the Mufti then he had his own reasons.

And oh remember him,

now I hope you understand why the mufti had decided to join the nazi camp. It was a tactical move, where as pope and the church could have helped in stopping the holocaust. But then still its the same church who was actively pushing the inquisition down every ones throat, and jews were not immune to it.

 

[KS]

Hence the title of this thread. What percent reformation and what percent makeover?

That is for the Muslims themselves to decide.

Non-Muslims can only say where/why many Muslims are seen as 'outside-the-group'.

That's where the media comes in, to paint all Muslims with one brush. I will give you one example: there is this Lebanese Islamic cleric in Australia who sometimes says things less than tactfully. The media calls him the leader of Australian Muslims, even though most non-Lebanese Muslims never heard of the guy.

And another thing the Muslims should change is their attempt to rationilize everything and somehow paint themselves as the victim and pawns in a conspiracy.

The media doesnt care if he is a Lebanese or Syrian. All they know is he is a Muslim and he reads the same Quran that a guy from Malaysia reads.It is natural on their part to think that He (Lebanese) can influence a Malaysian Muslim by quoting some verses of the Quran.

 

[fallstuff]

The church tolerated the holocaust but the Plaestenian grand mufti Mohammad Amin al-Husayni encouraged it and collaborated with the Nazis.

Mohammad Amin al-Husayni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am not going to comment on the wiki article.
Netji Bose was trying to get the Brit out with help from Japan/Germany, so was mufti in Palestine. Bose is declared a hero, Mufti a Nazi cohort.

 

[KS]

The point is if Hindus were not tolerated , it would be all muslim nation. When someone says Islam can not stand other religion that means other religions get wiped out, but that is not the case in India or Spain under Muslim rule.

In Spain there was inquisition by Queen Issaabella. Cruelty was redifined. Jews and muslims were all kicked out. When crusaders reached Jerusalem they killed everybody. Three ancient civilizations in Latin America went exticnt besause of the Spanish invaders.

You sir before you feel free to bless the forum with your posts, need to read up more first.

Just think that some of our ancestors were stronger than your swords.

 

[Aslan]

Just think that some of our ancestors were stronger than your swords.

Oh yes the lame argument of conversion by the sword. Well do your self a favor try reading on the spread of Christianity.

 

[KS]

Oh yes the lame argument of conversion by the sword. Well do your self a favor try reading on the spread of Christianity.

Show me the post where I said Christianity was spread only through Love. Spare me your lecture for I too have heard of Inquisitions. I was replying to that guy who said the "Sword" was never used in the Muslim conquest of India.

And as far as the spread of Islam in the Indian subcontinet was concerned ; well everyone knows the truth as to what is lame and what is not. Rulers like Babr,Aurangazeb, Buttshikan, Tughlaq,Ghori, Ghazni etc were all peaceful Sufi saints who came on a picnic to India. Just leave it.

 

[fallstuff]

Oh yes the lame argument of conversion by the sword. Well do your self a favor try reading on the spread of Christianity.

You are arguing with a RSS guy in Khaki shorts, need I say more !

 

[Vinod2070]

The point is if Hindus were not tolerated , it would be all muslim nation. When someone says Islam can not stand other religion that means other religions get wiped out, but that is not the case in India or Spain under Muslim rule.

Muslim invaders were never that strong in many parts of India. They needed Hindus to be on their side. Like Rajputs working with Mughals etc.

In the parts that were under continuous Muslim rule for long periods (like Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. leave alone Persia, Egypt, Central Asia etc.) there was little trace left of the old culture and religions.

Even now, when I visit ancient large temples in South India (North India has none left, almost all were destroyed by the barbarians), I still see broken statues that some random Islamic vandal broke at some time or the other.

There is also a city Vijayanagar (Humpi) that was so beautiful and completely destroyed by the barbarians that it is even now in ruins.

This logic has little water if you think hard enough. India had some of the worst cruelties perpetrated by the Islamic invaders. Much like Mongols in China and Central Asia and Arabia.

In Spain there was inquisition by Queen Issaabella. Cruelty was redifined. Jews and muslims were all kicked out. When crusaders reached Jerusalem they killed everybody. Three ancient civilizations in Latin America went exticnt besause of the Spanish invaders.

What has this got to do with anything here?

Spanish must have really hated the Islamic invaders to kick them out?

You sir before you feel free to bless the forum with your posts, need to read up more first.

Good advice. Thanks.