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Islam was ‘never part of Europe’: Hungary’s Orban

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Bottom line is that for 1300 years Europeans desperately fought against barbaric islamic invasions.There's not one country in Europe that hasn't past heroes in this struggle and you can't erase this history.
Reality check is: Europeans have always looked for people to fight, first they fought amongst themselves and now they are savagely attacking Muslims, first their lands, stealing their resources and then the Muslim migrants. Speaking of theft, pillaging the countries world over has been the European core pursuit for centuries and still is.
 
Reality check is: Europeans have always looked for people to fight, first they fought amongst themselves and now they are savagely attacking Muslims, first their lands, stealing their resources and then the Muslim migrants. Speaking of theft, pillaging the countries world over has been the European core pursuit for centuries and still is.


Reality check:Muslims attacked first
 
Super Reality Check. It was Christians who tried to contain the rise of Islam and failed miserably...........IT'S JUST LIKE HISTORY IS REPEATING ITSELF.


Not really......most of Europe was saved.So,as long as you admit past trangressions just accept today's reality as karma.
 
Not really......most of Europe was saved.So,as long as you admit past trangressions just accept today's reality as karma.
As long as you accept occupying and destroying Muslim territories, consider today's immigration crisis as Europe's own doing. Karma indeed! :cheers:
 
As long as you accept occupying and destroying Muslim territories, consider today's immigration crisis as Europe's own doing. Karma indeed! :cheers:

This to shall be settled ,as it was in the past.
 
I never said Muslims hold power in Europe. Muslims hold power globally, as in...I never said Muslims hold power in Europe. Muslims hold power globally, as in...throughout the globe in multiple continents. In terms of hard power and influence, Saudi Arabia and Turkey have more of it than any European nation (except a few).

You seem to be good a throwing general statements, but rather weak at backing them up with facts.I don't think you realize how irrelevant the Muslim world is on a world stage unless the US has any geopolitical interest in them such as the case with Turkey and KSA. Yes, KSA has oil, but without the industries in Europe and the USA, it is worthless.

Whether we are talking about economic weight/trade, education/science/technology or military - the Muslim world is barely worth mentioning.

Economic weight/trade

There are virtually no companies from the Muslim world in the Global 2000, while quite a few European ones are present on the list. (Search Global 2000)

European economies/companies are the largest source of FDI in the world and one of the main destination. Muslim countries/companies are barely relevant.(Search UNCTAD Investment Report 2014)

The total FDI stock held by GCC countries (the richest in the Muslim world) in the EU is €63 B, which represents around 2% of the total inward FDI in the EU (search Eurostat news release 27/2015 - 11 February 2015)

The EU countries own €54.1 B in GCC countries, which represents around 15% of the GCC inward FDI stock (you can calculate the figure from the reports I posted)

Since 1991, the European Commission has blocked over global 30 mergers and acquisitions and regulated 100s of others. There are no many regulatory bodies in the Muslim world that have done so, at the best some local M&A activity. (search European Commission merger cases)

You will most probably talk about SWF and how Muslims countries own some of the biggest ones. This is true. However let's look at the details. AuM in 2012 for SWFs is currently above $5 trillion (take note that not all SWFs are from Muslim countries), while the global AuM is around $64 trillion. That means SWFs represent around 7% of total wealth. If we generously say that Muslim country own 50% of that amount, it still only represents around 3.5%
(search PwC Asset Management 2020: A Brave New World)

Wealth in most European countries is not owned by governments, but rather individuals via mutual/pension funds. There is a much higher median wealth in European countries and many more HNWI individuals.
(Search Credit Suisse Global Wealth Report 2014 & Capgemini World Wealth Report)

Education/science/technology

The Muslim world was once great in science and technology, but is today completely irrelevant, whether we are talking about scientific publications, R&D spending, patents or industrial designs.
(search PwC Innovation 1000, WIPO Patents statistics, Sci Mago)

nature_graphic_muslim_universities_29.10.15.jpg


How can the Muslim world even want to compete when the literacy rate in OIC countries is 71.7%, compared to the world average of 80.1% and 98.1% in the developed world
(search SESRIC Report on Education and Scientific Development in the OIC Member Countries 2012-2013)

Some of the best universities and research institutes in the world are located in Europe. There are also none in the Muslim world.
(Search Times Higher Education ranking and Mapping Scientific Excellence)


Military

Even though KSA is indeed a big spender on military, this is all they are and as we can see they are having difficulties to deal with some rag-tags in Yemen. They have no industrial consortia that develop cutting edge military equipment.
(search SIPRI recent arms trends in arms industry)

The only worth mentioning is Turkey, because it has a growing army and has experience through the Kurdish uprisings and cooperation with NATO. Which precisely shows that the only Muslim military power is one that unites with Western countries.

I can give you more, but I think you get the point. Please do tell me more about the power that the Muslims hold globally and your general anecdotal statements :)
 
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...as-never-part-of-Europe-Hungary-s-Orban-.html

Hungary’s Prime Minister Viktor Orban defended his hardline stance against refugees, the vast majority of whom are Muslim, saying in an interview published Friday that Islam “has never been part of Europe”.

Speaking to Germany’s Focus news weekly about the record migrant influx, he said “the language of the European elite is ideological and dogmatic”.

“Islam has never been part of Europe, it came to us,” Orban told Focus in an interview to be published in full Saturday.

He conceded that Germany’s Turkish migrants, who arrived in their tens of thousands from the 1960s for work, now “belong to German history and therefore Europe’s too”.

“But spiritually, Islam was never part of Europe. It’s the rulebook of another world,” said Orban.

He also hit out at France and Germany for refusing to countenance “any doubts” over a multicultural society.

“We in Hungary decide what we want or don’t want. We don’t want that,” he said.
If we have stated same about Christianity/Judaism,then we would be declared as extremist,lol
Height of biases and double standards.
Anyways,Hungary has full right to decide what to do and what not,just as we do.


regards
 
Ottoman attempts to conquer Europe just halted because europeans declared Ottomans as part of european negotiating process. Be our guests and stop that negotiating process if you are not scared.

We will see the outcome in the future of your decisions.

AKP is working. Turkish defence industry is rising.
 
Ottoman attempts to conquer Europe just halted because europeans declared Ottomans as part of european negotiating process. Be our guests and stop that negotiating process if you are not scared.

We will see the outcome in the future of your decisions.

AKP is working. Turkish defence industry is rising.
Last time Turkish army came to invade Europe, a good number of their soldiers had large wooden stakes driven up their asses.
 
You seem to be good a throwing general statements, but rather weak at backing them up with facts.I don't think you realize how irrelevant the Muslim world is on a world stage unless the US has any geopolitical interest in them such as the case with Turkey and KSA. Yes, KSA has oil, but without the industries in Europe and the USA, it is worthless.

Whether we are talking about economic weight/trade, education/science/technology or military - the Muslim world is barely worth mentioning.

Economic weight/trade

There are virtually no companies from the Muslim world in the Global 2000, while quite a few European ones are present on the list. (Search Global 2000)

European economies/companies are the largest source of FDI in the world and one of the main destination. Muslim countries/companies are barely relevant.(Search UNCTAD Investment Report 2014)

The total FDI stock held by GCC countries (the richest in the Muslim world) in the EU is €63 B, which represents around 2% of the total inward FDI in the EU (search Eurostat news release 27/2015 - 11 February 2015)

The EU countries own €54.1 B in GCC countries, which represents around 15% of the GCC inward FDI stock (you can calculate the figure from the reports I posted)

Since 1991, the European Commission has blocked over global 30 mergers and acquisitions and regulated 100s of others. There are no many regulatory bodies in the Muslim world that have done so, at the best some local M&A activity. (search European Commission merger cases)

You will most probably talk about SWF and how Muslims countries own some of the biggest ones. This is true. However let's look at the details. AuM in 2012 for SWFs is currently above $5 trillion (take note that not all SWFs are from Muslim countries), while the global AuM is around $64 trillion. That means SWFs represent around 7% of total wealth. If we generously say that Muslim country own 50% of that amount, it still only represents around 3.5%
(search PwC Asset Management 2020: A Brave New World)

Wealth in most European countries is not owned by governments, but rather individuals via mutual/pension funds. There is a much higher median wealth in European countries and many more HNWI individuals.
(Search Credit Suisse Global Wealth Report 2014 & Capgemini World Wealth Report)

Education/science/technology

The Muslim world was once great in science and technology, but is today completely irrelevant, whether we are talking about scientific publications, R&D spending, patents or industrial designs.
(search PwC Innovation 1000, WIPO Patents statistics, Sci Mago)

nature_graphic_muslim_universities_29.10.15.jpg


How can the Muslim world even want to compete when the literacy rate in OIC countries is 71.7%, compared to the world average of 80.1% and 98.1% in the developed world
(search SESRIC Report on Education and Scientific Development in the OIC Member Countries 2012-2013)

Some of the best universities and research institutes in the world are located in Europe. There are also none in the Muslim world.
(Search Times Higher Education ranking and Mapping Scientific Excellence)


Military

Even though KSA is indeed a big spender on military, this is all they are and as we can see they are having difficulties to deal with some rag-tags in Yemen. They have no industrial consortia that develop cutting edge military equipment.
(search SIPRI recent arms trends in arms industry)

The only worth mentioning is Turkey, because it has a growing army and has experience through the Kurdish uprisings and cooperation with NATO. Which precisely shows that the only Muslim military power is one that unites with Western countries.

I can give you more, but I think you get the point. Please do tell me more about the power that the Muslims hold globally and your general anecdotal statements :)

LOL.

And what was the point of your post? I have seen posts like this comparing Switzerland and Russia, and how Switzerland has 'more companies' or 'citizens are rich' and blah blah. In real world, none of that really matters. Stop acting like a teenager that has to "prove" something on the internet.

Your whole premise seem to be showing that West of today is more powerful than Muslim World of today----but why would you state this when nobody even challenged it?

Let me explain what I meant when I wrote "I never said Muslims hold power in Europe. Muslims hold power globally, as in...throughout the globe in multiple continents."

The global Islamic Civilization is spreading across the planet and has established itself firmly in the heartlands of all major continents of the world, including Europe.

However, some people remain in their state of ignorance while the image of real world is skewed. I see people (especially indians lol!) commenting about here "impoverished Muslims" as if Muslims are some sort of backwater, rural subsaharan Africans.

The reality however is quite different and can be verified by just looking at credible statistics and data..

Muslim World has massive industries, advance transport systems, nuclear reactors and nuclear technology, brands that are consistently ranked number one globally (For example check out the global airlines ranking), advance telecommunication across spectrum, some of the largest corporations of the world, massive production of agriculture, minerals, steel etc. and many Muslim nations have also placed satellites in the space.

Offcourse, they are not as advance as United States/West (please don't get insecure and bring this back again)..but Islamic peoples are a complete modern peoples of 21st century with all the technological advancements, infrastructure, and the production means to not only sustain but advance their civilization as well (which, if you haven't noticed, they have been doing).

Islamic World...as an aggregate (I know the diversity, please don't say Saudi and Indonesia are different, I know that--but you get my point)...is a "middle-class" world extending globally across continents. Islamic Civilization encompasses around 1/4 of humanity and has presence on GLOBAL scale (One of the ONLY two global civilization human kind has ever seen (the other is West) ). So much so, that it has spread and extended to established itself in the heartlands of Europe and throughout the Western World as well The "average" income of an average Muslim of the world is around $10,000 by purchasing power parity (Source: 2014 updated world bank statistics on global economy). Some Muslim countries are rich as fcuk, while others poor. Many others in the middle. But over-all, Islamic World is a middle-income economic sphere.

The total exports of Muslim World are around $2.2 trillion (majority of them non-oil/gas exports). Total industrial output of Muslim World is more $550 billion (excluding Iran's). International Tourism to Muslim world alone generates $143 billion in revenue, with 150 million international tourists arriving at various lands within global Muslim sphere. Muslim World publishes 150,000+ scientific papers every year. I know compared with peak of Western World, it is not as good--but these numbers on their own are gigantic in themselves.

And do we need to talk about market size of 1.7 billion customers?! Here's something..

The worth of global halal food market alone is $1.1 trillion. In other words, just food market of Muslims in twice the size of entire Japanese exports for 2014! ( I know Japanese are way, way advance than any Muslim country. And they have achieved more than any Muslim country. I know and respect that. But on global scale, I'm just giving you an idea of size)

So all this talk of "poor Muslims..oh uh" is nothing but pure imagination of some people that just can not digest the reality and would like to keep living in their own self-imagined world. (a general comment)

Muslims control tremendous amount of world's resources (energy, oil, minerals), rule gigantic populations across continents, control vast territories, have some of the largest/most powerful militaries of the world (including nuclear forces), Islamic law/culture shapes the lives of BILLIONS of people across continents, and so on.

The amount of power, influence, and resources Islamic Civilization has is insane...considering the fact that Islamic Civilization(s) remained superpower(s) of the world for nearly 1000+ years and ruled the Earth from 7th to 18th century (general trend) and today they are in their "demise" per say (since West took that lead post 18th century and maintains it till now).

In other words, Islamic Civilization is so powerful in itself that they are "expanding" even during their "demise cycle"...No other civilization in history has done that. And here we have people who dream of "erasing Islam" from planet (if they could---many in U.S, too. You know it). LOL!!

Heck, forget about global Islamosphere were Muslims are in power and rule, Islam and Islamic Civilization is thriving even in the heart of ultra secular Europe!!

Muslims and Islam are a integral part of Europe/West now. Tens of millions of Europeans across Europe are Muslims. There are tens of thousands of mosques, millions of girls in Hijab and millions more following Islamic dress code. Halal-food is mainstream. Islamic presence and symbols can be 'felt' in every major European center. Muslim Europeans are involved in mainstream European life as businessmen, innovators, doctors, engineers, celebrities, soccer players, journalists, property-dealers, politicians, teachers, social workers, TV actors, News anchors, and even p*rn-stars (yes!)!! Islam has become inevitable part of European fabric. It is Europe's largest minority socio-cultural-religious force.

There is special transmission on TV channels during Ramadan in UK, and inclusion of Islamic studies in Public schools across Germany are all evidences of how Islamic Civilization has spread its presence throughout Europe.

When you have Islamic Studies in PUBLIC SCHOOLS for better integration of society, you don't get more mainstream than that...

Arabic is being taught in the heartlands of Europe to thousands of children who were born in Europe and are Europeans by law.

Heck, Muslims are in the parliaments of Europe, serve as ministers in European governments, and have commanded the ruling parties of major European nations.

In the largest capital of European Union, 33% of all small to medium sized enterprises/businesses are owned by Muslims!! (Even though Muslims represent only 12% of the population)

Source: London's Mecca rich: the rise of the Muslim multi-millionaires splashing their cash | London Life | Lifestyle | London Evening Standard


Muslims have tremendous power, control, and influence across the globe...with powerful allies in the International system. (Allies in West, and East)

GCC Sheiks will not cross U.S b/c it goes against their interests. Same goes for U.S. Come back when U.S is able to extract something from GCC that GCC itself deem running contrary to their interests.

Hint: That will almost never happen.

Recently, Turkey give a big f*ck you to NATO when they chose Chinese systems with ToT. Same goes for Pakistan which did its own thing in Afghanistan in regards to Taliban/Al Qaeda---even though the superpower itself want Pak to do something else. And lets not even talk about Iran in Iraq, their nuclear fiasco, and so on. Everybody protects their interests and you know better.

So, you see,

Muslims do hold power globally, as in...throughout the globe in multiple continents. It doesn't mean that I'm saying that West is less powerful and that Muslims hold more power than West etc.

Moreover, Turkey alone is more relevant/powerful than 97% of European continent! (Only France, Germany, and UK surpass Turkey in that regard). However, you can bring all the fancy companies from Switzerland or Belgium and keep churning our irrelevant stuff online. :)

Not really......most of Europe was saved.So,as long as you admit past trangressions just accept today's reality as karma.

lol, not really.

European civilization was erased from entire Southern Mediterranean world (which we call North Africa now), Egypt, Turkey, Syria, and so on.

So yeah, "most of Europe" was saved but only after sustaining eradication of its presence from massive territory and loss of millions of people to foreign culture/civilization..

And Europe couldn't do anything similar to Islam. The "best" it could do was when French made Algeria as "extension" of natural France---and saw it as part of France.

Result? Algerians--not only maintained their Islamic culture/identity---they organized around that identity and brutally threw out entire French presence while the power difference b/w France and Algeria was extreme to put it mildly.

French dreamed of having a culture-altering effect on one Muslim territory atlast--but considering reality, there might be more Mosques in FRANCE before Algeria gets any Catholic churches in great number :lol:
 
lol, not really.

European civilization was erased from entire Southern Mediterranean world (which we call North Africa now), Egypt, Turkey, Syria, and so on.

So yeah, "most of Europe" was saved but only after sustaining eradication of its presence from massive territory and loss of millions of people to foreign culture/civilization..

And Europe couldn't do anything similar to Islam. The "best" it could do was when French made Algeria as "extension" of natural France---and saw it as part of France.

Result? Algerians--not only maintained their Islamic culture/identity---they organized around that identity and brutally threw out entire French presence while the power difference b/w France and Algeria was extreme to put it mildly.

French dreamed of having a culture-altering effect on one Muslim territory atlast--but considering reality, there might be more Mosques in FRANCE before Algeria gets any Catholic churches in great number

Europe itself was saved.The muslims were pushed out of Spain,Sicily,Eastern Europe, and Europeans maintained their identity unlike Iranians,Turkic people,many South East Asians.In fact they compensated the loss of Northern Africa by branching out in the rest of Africa,the Americas,Australia,New Zealand-fair trade i would say.

The Algerians didn't threw the French out,the French left on their own due to the pressure back home,anyone reading about that war would see the disparity in losses between the sides and that the French still had control on the ground.

As for the bragging of having many mosques in Europe,this is exactly the attitude that could lead to a catastrophic reversal of fortunes for the muslim minority.There's only an extent you can push the tolerant majority,untill they won't be tolerant no more.They are here because Europeans opened the door not because of their might or cultural superiority.
 
Muslim World...

Show me these companies and brands. I am looking at the Global 2000 report and the Millward Brown Top 100 brands, not seeing many corporations and brands from the Muslim world (except Emirates and Etihad)

Massive industries like what? You are talking about advance transport systems, nuclear reactors and nuclear technology, advance telecommunication, but I am sure you cannot name me one single corporation in the Muslim world that is a leader or move in any of these industries. Yes, some places in the Muslim world have purchased these things from the West, but this brings me to my previous point that the Muslim world are just consumers and not makers/innovators.

I am not talking agriculture, halal foods, mining and other such low value added industries. Show me any high-value added industry where the Muslim world matters and where we can clearly say that they are at the forefront. Automotive, electronics, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, med-tech, bio-tech, space, ICT?

Muslim countries have place satellites in space? That's great, but I fail to understand how that makes them relevant. Romania and Bulgaria also have satellites in space, not sure they would fall within the relevant countries group. Was it the Muslim countries that manufactured the satellites? Was it the Muslim countries that send the satellites in space? Or did they merely just made an order to Airbus Defence and Space, Thales Alenia Space or OBH?

All these numbers you posted are not gigantic

$2.2 trillion for 1.6 billion souls? Yes that is relevant if you look at the figures solely on their own. When you look at it in perspective and see that a 80 million strong Germany exported $1.511 trillion in 2014, it shows you how irrelevant it is.

All the other figures, you should compare it to the rest of the world to understand the meaning of irrelevant. You precisely did that by comparing the halal market to the Japanese exports. Comparing populations higher with a multiple of almost 16, yet being happy that it barely makes an output of a multiple of 2....

There are indeed many Muslim individuals that have done great for themselves, just like there is a huge Muslim underclass in most European countries. Of course Muslims can immigrate to Western countries, of course they can integrate just like many other groups have done... but that is not what we are discussing aren't we?

All my previous points were about Muslim countries (members of the OIC) and their position in the world. I am not sure how examples of people from the Muslim world moving to the West and succeeding proves your point. If anything, it just proves that for many ambitious and driven Muslims, the education, political and social institutions of the Muslim world cannot provide them with the necessary tools to blossom in their professional/personal life.

As your compatriot Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy once said in one of his lectures he gave in the US. "Do I expect one of the next technological/scientific breakthroughs to be done by a Muslim (culturally or devout)? Yes. Will he be based in the Muslim world? Most certainly not."
 
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@AUz

Yoyo...what do you say on IMF prediction KSA will be "broke" in 5 years if present spending trends continue (they will most likely increase with 2 wars to finance) and oil stays near 50-ish $ (KSA has budget built around a 100$/barrel). Plus an ever increasing share of oil goes for home consumption.

Pray this doesn't happen. The ramifications on the Muslim world and your posts would be profound.

Personally, i give it over 70% that Saudi role in the world will be greatly diminished in about 20 years time. The trends are against them
(electric propulsion/green "stuff") and i think they have greatly overplayed their hand with two wars going on. Plus the current that succession drama that's going on (new King broke tradition-set his son as heir not his younger brother-he got it from his older brother).
There is no viable endgame which puts them on top now after relations with Iran have semi-normalized and Russians entered Syria. US might arm "moderate" rebels at their urging
(which it did) but Manpads (with geographic lock supposedly-ie cant be used everywhere) for example can't destroy a bomber at altitude bombing with laser. Some Muslims are being set up for the slaughter. And Iraqi Muslims just invited it further east and south.
 
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The thread has gone way off-topic. Thank you for your contributions.
 
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