Islam was ‘never part of Europe’: Hungary’s Orban

[Penguin]

The spread of Christianity in Europe by 1000

Religious division in Europe 1555

10 Revealing Maps of Religion in Europe | ChurchPOP

 

[gangsta_rap]

I think most academics would disagree.

 

[flamer84]

Religious division in Europe 1555

Err,what ? The Great Schism took place in 1054 and even before that not all Europe was Catholic.

Erm so did Christianity. In fact your Magyar ancestors weren't very European either. Nothing is static in this world.

My Magyar ancestors ? Anyway,the Magyars in Europe did what any current day migrant should do....integrated and adapted to local culture,discarding most of their wrong ways.

 

[AUz]

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...as-never-part-of-Europe-Hungary-s-Orban-.html

Hungary’s Prime Minister Viktor Orban defended his hardline stance against refugees, the vast majority of whom are Muslim, saying in an interview published Friday that Islam “has never been part of Europe”.

Speaking to Germany’s Focus news weekly about the record migrant influx, he said “the language of the European elite is ideological and dogmatic”.

“Islam has never been part of Europe, it came to us,” Orban told Focus in an interview to be published in full Saturday.

He conceded that Germany’s Turkish migrants, who arrived in their tens of thousands from the 1960s for work, now “belong to German history and therefore Europe’s too”.

“But spiritually, Islam was never part of Europe. It’s the rulebook of another world,” said Orban.

He also hit out at France and Germany for refusing to countenance “any doubts” over a multicultural society.

“We in Hungary decide what we want or don’t want. We don’t want that,” he said.

lol, @flamer84 c'mon bro. Orban is being kind of goofy.

Lets be politically incorrect here and I'll be damn honest with you.

To understand Europeans' fear of Islam, let us present the reality...

Islamic World is the largest, one of the most powerful (even today), and the most global human civilization of history. Unlike Christianity, which is a mere spiritual set of beliefs (and have absolutely been decimated in terms of any influence in West by secular hedonism), Islam is a legalistic religious system at core with social, political, and military aspects built within its ideological construction. It is a civilizational force in itself. If you have studied "Religion" or "Anthropology" in some elite university of Europe, you would know what I'm talking about. But lets see it in a simple way..

Islam is not just a religion but a cultural, civilizational force in itself. It has its own laws, personal behavioral code of conduct, its political principles and mechanisms, and even certain parameters for dress-code for individual. It explicitly organizes the interaction of individual and society. All of this makes Muslims not just random followers of a religion, but also "a specific people" with their own unique identity no matter where they are on planet Earth. For example, Muslims have a universal greeting for interacting with other Muslims- "Asslam-o-Alaikum". No matter who you are, and where you are, you will know this greeting. Muslims, no matter where they are, follow same rules about divorce, inheritance, food and diet, and heck!, even personal hygiene. They have a same and very codified structure of Islamic rituals that each Muslim know by heart..no matter if he is Nigerian or Indonesian..It has is own universal language of prayer and religious studies (Arabic)..It is kind of like in military..soldiers have their own "soldier culture", distinct from outside world and easily identifiable with. Turkish girls, Iranian girls, Indonesian girls, Indian girls, and Central Asian girls etc couldn't be further in terms of behavior, geography etc...but they wear Hijab and follow a certain dress-code inspired from Islam, in its own unique manifestations. All of this shows that Islam is a civilization of its own. It makes many different identities into one super nation that can be called as 'Islamic People' (Concept of Ummah). Religion like Christianity or Hinduism doesn't do that. They have trillion of different doctrines, practices, and many different 'holy' books etc, no common language, or any common codes.To understand Islam, Judaism and Jews are a good example. Other than nationalities, Jews are also a specific 'people' or define themselves as such. You know why? Because Judaism is also a 'legalistic' religion and not a creedal one (Although Islam is a completely different ball game because it was able to "establish" itself historically, while Jews were marginalized).

It doesn't mean that Muslims are one state and that Iran and Turkey will not compete with each other. But on mass level, Muslims do feel for other Muslims and you know it too.

Now, in 21st century, "Islamic Civilization,"---already being a largest civilization of humanity--is spreading even further (Mainly because of demographic momentum since Islamic World, as a whole, is a "middle-class" world and not the developed/rich sphere like U.S/Canada etc). It is spreading outwards due to global mobility, globalization, internal wars, immigration, and so on (while keeping its traditional culture/identity/civilization intact at home--which right wingers of Europe DREAM about for Europe but fail to actually see it happening as Europe becomes diverse and loses its indigenous culture/traditions).

Now, when Hungry, Romania, or other Eastern European nations 'feel' the expansion of Islam and Islamic Civilization within European mainland---they get afraid (and rightly so, nobody wants to lose their indigenous culture..especially to a civilization that was your competitor in past etc).

But what people like Orban needs to understand is that this is too late for "prevention" policy.

Muslims and Islam are a integral part of Europe/West now. Tens of millions of Europeans across Europe are Muslims. There are tens of thousands of mosques, millions of girls in Hijab and millions more following Islamic dress code. Halal-food is mainstream. Islamic presence and symbols can be 'felt' in every major European center. Muslim Europeans are involved in mainstream European life as businessmen, innovators, doctors, engineers, celebrities, soccer players, journalists, property-dealers, politicians, teachers, social workers, TV actors, News anchors, and even ****-stars (yes!)!! Islam has become inevitable part of European fabric. It is Europe's largest minority socio-cultural-religious force.

There is special transmission on TV channels during Ramadan in UK, and inclusion of Islamic studies in Public schools across Germany are all evidences of how Islamic Civilization has spread its presence throughout Europe.

When you have Islamic Studies in PUBLIC SCHOOLS for better integration of society, you don't get more mainstream than that...

Arabic is being taught in the heartlands of Europe to thousands of children who were born in Europe and are Europeans by law.

Heck, Muslims are in the parliaments of Europe, serve as ministers in European governments, and have commanded the ruling parties of major European nations.

In the largest capital of European Continent (London), 33% of all small to medium sized enterprises/businesses are owned by Muslims!! (Even though Muslims represent only 12% of the population)

Source: London's Mecca rich: the rise of the Muslim multi-millionaires splashing their cash | London Life | Lifestyle | London Evening Standard

Islamic Civilization has established itself within Europe. Nothing can be done about it. PEW's detailed demographic analysis shows that 10% of ALL Europeans in the European continent will be Muslims by 2050. There's no "stopping" to the behemoth global civilization like Islam. Its too big to be contained. Too powerful to be destroyed completely.

Now, what Orban should be doing is focusing on integration of Islamic peoples into Europe. Finding out a way where Europe and Islam integrate to live peacefully with mutual respect and harmony. Europe should seriously study the United States when it comes to integration. And rightwing politics shouldn't be seen as "savior" of Europe now.

Welcome to reality, bro. World is a global village and you can't keep hiding forever.

 

[Penguin]

Err,what ? The Great Schism took place in 1054 and even before that not all Europe was Catholic.

The point dealt with Christianity and Islam in Europe.

 

[xyxmt]

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...as-never-part-of-Europe-Hungary-s-Orban-.html

Hungary’s Prime Minister Viktor Orban defended his hardline stance against refugees, the vast majority of whom are Muslim, saying in an interview published Friday that Islam “has never been part of Europe”.

Speaking to Germany’s Focus news weekly about the record migrant influx, he said “the language of the European elite is ideological and dogmatic”.

“Islam has never been part of Europe, it came to us,” Orban told Focus in an interview to be published in full Saturday.

He conceded that Germany’s Turkish migrants, who arrived in their tens of thousands from the 1960s for work, now “belong to German history and therefore Europe’s too”.

“But spiritually, Islam was never part of Europe. It’s the rulebook of another world,” said Orban.

He also hit out at France and Germany for refusing to countenance “any doubts” over a multicultural society.

“We in Hungary decide what we want or don’t want. We don’t want that,” he said.

Christianity was never part of Europe either, it came to you

 

[bongbang]

Hungry man's dilusion

 

[flamer84]

Christianity was never part of Europe either, it came to you

And we've embraced it,peacefully,at least in the beginning.It came to represent medieval Europe.Another thing that represented medieval Europe was the fact that every nation out there fought against invading Islamic hordes.Islam tried to impose itself by force and was resisted by brave European heroes for over 1200 years.You don't erase 1200 years of struggle with liberal communism of today.

lol, @flamer84 c'mon bro. Orban is being kind of goofy.

Lets be politically incorrect here and I'll be damn honest with you.

To understand Europeans' fear of Islam, let us present the reality...

Islamic World is the largest, one of the most powerful (even today), and the most global human civilization of history. Unlike Christianity, which is a mere spiritual set of beliefs (and have absolutely been decimated in terms of any influence in West by secular hedonism), Islam is a legalistic religious system at core with social, political, and military aspects built within its ideological construction. It is a civilizational force in itself. If you have studied "Religion" or "Anthropology" in some elite university of Europe, you would know what I'm talking about. But lets see it in a simple way..

Islam is not just a religion but a cultural, civilizational force in itself. It has its own laws, personal behavioral code of conduct, its political principles and mechanisms, and even certain parameters for dress-code for individual. It explicitly organizes the interaction of individual and society. All of this makes Muslims not just random followers of a religion, but also "a specific people" with their own unique identity no matter where they are on planet Earth. For example, Muslims have a universal greeting for interacting with other Muslims- "Asslam-o-Alaikum". No matter who you are, and where you are, you will know this greeting. Muslims, no matter where they are, follow same rules about divorce, inheritance, food and diet, and heck!, even personal hygiene. They have a same and very codified structure of Islamic rituals that each Muslim know by heart..no matter if he is Nigerian or Indonesian..It has is own universal language of prayer and religious studies (Arabic)..It is kind of like in military..soldiers have their own "soldier culture", distinct from outside world and easily identifiable with. Turkish girls, Iranian girls, Indonesian girls, Indian girls, and Central Asian girls etc couldn't be further in terms of behavior, geography etc...but they wear Hijab and follow a certain dress-code inspired from Islam, in its own unique manifestations. All of this shows that Islam is a civilization of its own. It makes many different identities into one super nation that can be called as 'Islamic People' (Concept of Ummah). Religion like Christianity or Hinduism doesn't do that. They have trillion of different doctrines, practices, and many different 'holy' books etc, no common language, or any common codes.To understand Islam, Judaism and Jews are a good example. Other than nationalities, Jews are also a specific 'people' or define themselves as such. You know why? Because Judaism is also a 'legalistic' religion and not a creedal one (Although Islam is a completely different ball game because it was able to "establish" itself historically, while Jews were marginalized).

It doesn't mean that Muslims are one state and that Iran and Turkey will not compete with each other. But on mass level, Muslims do feel for other Muslims and you know it too.

Now, in 21st century, "Islamic Civilization,"---already being a largest civilization of humanity--is spreading even further (Mainly because of demographic momentum since Islamic World, as a whole, is a "middle-class" world and not the developed/rich sphere like U.S/Canada etc). It is spreading outwards due to global mobility, globalization, internal wars, immigration, and so on (while keeping its traditional culture/identity/civilization intact at home--which right wingers of Europe DREAM about for Europe but fail to actually see it happening as Europe becomes diverse and loses its indigenous culture/traditions).

Now, when Hungry, Romania, or other Eastern European nations 'feel' the expansion of Islam and Islamic Civilization within European mainland---they get afraid (and rightly so, nobody wants to lose their indigenous culture..especially to a civilization that was your competitor in past etc).

But what people like Orban needs to understand is that this is too late for "prevention" policy.

Muslims and Islam are a integral part of Europe/West now. Tens of millions of Europeans across Europe are Muslims. There are tens of thousands of mosques, millions of girls in Hijab and millions more following Islamic dress code. Halal-food is mainstream. Islamic presence and symbols can be 'felt' in every major European center. Muslim Europeans are involved in mainstream European life as businessmen, innovators, doctors, engineers, celebrities, soccer players, journalists, property-dealers, politicians, teachers, social workers, TV actors, News anchors, and even ****-stars (yes!)!! Islam has become inevitable part of European fabric. It is Europe's largest minority socio-cultural-religious force.

There is special transmission on TV channels during Ramadan in UK, and inclusion of Islamic studies in Public schools across Germany are all evidences of how Islamic Civilization has spread its presence throughout Europe.

When you have Islamic Studies in PUBLIC SCHOOLS for better integration of society, you don't get more mainstream than that...

Arabic is being taught in the heartlands of Europe to thousands of children who were born in Europe and are Europeans by law.

Heck, Muslims are in the parliaments of Europe, serve as ministers in European governments, and have commanded the ruling parties of major European nations.

In the largest capital of European Continent (London), 33% of all small to medium sized enterprises/businesses are owned by Muslims!! (Even though Muslims represent only 12% of the population)

Source: London's Mecca rich: the rise of the Muslim multi-millionaires splashing their cash | London Life | Lifestyle | London Evening Standard

Islamic Civilization has established itself within Europe. Nothing can be done about it. PEW's detailed demographic analysis shows that 10% of ALL Europeans in the European continent will be Muslims by 2050. There's no "stopping" to the behemoth global civilization like Islam. Its too big to be contained. Too powerful to be destroyed completely.

Now, what Orban should be doing is focusing on integration of Islamic peoples into Europe. Finding out a way where Europe and Islam integrate to live peacefully with mutual respect and harmony. Europe should seriously study the United States when it comes to integration. And rightwing politics shouldn't be seen as "savior" of Europe now.

Welcome to reality, bro. World is a global village and you can't keep hiding forever.

I agree with you on most parts.It's exactly what Orban stated,"Islam is the rue book of another world".

 

[Lord ZeN]

Christianity was never part of Europe either, it came to you

But it is now (what happened in the past is of no consequence here) and they refuse to accept Islamic culture ( not even people who practice that faith). It's their choice and their nothing you or me can do about. It's easy to blame India and other developing nations as NOT being tolerant to Islam and it's practices (some were even calling us a fake democracy) but now it seams the Western nations are also showing the same intolerance.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

My Magyar ancestors ? Anyway,the Magyars in Europe did what any current day migrant should do....integrated and adapted to local culture,discarding most of their wrong ways.

Time. Time. Time. Did it to the Magyars and it will do it to the present migrants. You got to zoom out and look at the big picture.

@Penguin Your posts are always dose of sanity around here. May I ask where you are from?

 

[xyxmt]

The book of revelation talks about Armageddon but it doesnt tell you who will you fight against since Islam was not in the picture, our book tells us it will be between Islam and Christianity. But, its not going to happen if we keep living separately like good neighbors and hence muslims are coming to provide a reason. Unlike Jews who were smaller in numbers and weaker in strength and let Christian play their game, it will be different with muslims being target of Christians and hence the "Armageddon"

 

[flamer84]

The book of revelation talks about Armageddon but it doesnt tell you who will you fight against since Islam was not in the picture, our book tells us it will be between Islam and Christianity. But, its not going to happen if we keep living separately like good neighbors and hence muslims are coming to provide a reason. Unlike Jews who were smaller in numbers and weaker in strength and let Christian play their game, it will be different with muslims being target of Christians and hence the "Armageddon"

Well,our Prophecies depict Christians as victims and the ultimate winners.I,for one,won't stake my future on either "book" and their prophecies.Still,looking at past history,Chistians were first victims of Islam,and they still are today in the ME and other Islamic countries.

Time. Time. Time. Did it to the Magyars and it will do it to the present migrants. You got to zoom out and look at the big picture.

@Penguin Your posts are always dose of sanity around here. May I ask where you are from?

Time is a luxury we do not have in this fast moving world.

He's Dutch.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

But it is now (what happened in the past is of no consequence here) and they refuse to accept Islamic culture ( not even people who practice that faith). It's their choice and their nothing you or me can do about. It's easy to blame India and other developing nations as NOT being tolerant to Islam and it's practices (some were even calling us a fake democracy) but now it seams the Western nations are also showing the same intolerance.

Don't conflate the two. In the case of Western nations people other parts of the world clearly belonging to non European races have migrated who ALSO happen to carry around "in the face Islam" that has caused the reaction. In addition geopolitics has also mixed in to create lethal mix.

In your case your whipping your fellow Ganga Indian dweller, who happens to of a Ganga ethnic group and probably converted only few generations ago. So it is this guy on the left thrashing this guy on the right. Same on same. So try not to bracket it in the European context.

Time is a luxury we do not have in this fast moving world.

One thing that education should confer on a person is the ability to see the other person's perspective. I sort of can see why your concerned. I don't think your a bad person. I think you see change and feel worried about what it will bring in particular when you look at other parts of Europe which have experianced change. It also does not help that you come from a country that has been insular for some time and the only external experiance that plays large on your pysche is the Ottoman Muslim conquest thus the historical memory is weighted against Islam.

I will be honest here and tell you I live and was brought up in UK. I strongly identify myself with Britain. I don't shout this fact because it would degrade my ability to influence Pakistani's as I try to give them my "sense" of where they should go. However my personal future is tied to UK.

In the last decade I have seen the town I grew up in change enormously by waves of migrants. I confess I a son of a migrant from the 1950s have not taken to the change. I don't like the increased demand for housing, jobs and overall increased competition that has been brought about.

I jog everyday and even my damned local park which used to be so quite is turning into a bloody zoo. I have had to buy a dog because almost every bench has Polish or Romany Gypsy drunks. The former are pissed the latter beg for change to get more pissed. Then we have bunches of loud mouthed huge overbearing African's who look on you with menacing looks.

So if I feel like this as a son of migrant I can only imagine how the "natives" feel. However their is a feature in the local park of a rock with some sea animal encrusted belonging to some geological age that as I run past it makes me reflect on how everything changes. What I am running over was one under the sea.

Moral. Yeh we should worry about things but get on with your life and enjoy it as much as you can. In my case make money ( loads of by hook or crook ) and go after the women. Rest is just secondary and annoying distraction.

And now I am off to do my daily jog. 4 miles target time 50 minutes. The weather is nice and cool with slight bite to it.

@Penguin I did not know you were Dutch. I had you cut as probably a "Brit".

Ps. Ever seen map of Roman Empire? Germany was "Savages" and "Vandals" but Algeria or Egypt were Pax Romana. Christians were toasted for entertainment.

 

[Lord ZeN]

Don't conflate the two. In the case of Western nations people other parts of the world clearly belonging to non European races have migrated who ALSO happen to carry around "in the face Islam" that has caused the reaction. In addition geopolitics has also mixed in to create lethal mix.

I think you completely misunderstood me. I'm not blaming Europeans for being intolerant to "Muslim immigrants" . I'm just highlighting how badly developing countries of Asia and Africa are depicted by their media as grave violators of human rights and their point argument is always like how every "Human being" irrespective of his/her religion or race or nationality is equal and should be treated so ( just like the western society).

In your case your whipping your fellow Ganga Indian dweller, who happens to of a Ganga ethnic group and probably converted only few generations ago. So it is this guy on the left thrashing this guy on the right. Same on same. So try not to bracket it in the European context.

And Yeah .. As there are "No Immigrants" in our country apart from Illegal BD immigrants and persecuted Minorities from countries like Islamic Pakistan and BD , so our situation cannot be compared to that of Europe. In India it's just Indians Vs Indians. On another note Pakistan is represented by Western media as 100 times worser than India.
It seems you moved to Iran or are you still in U.K Mr. Self proclaimed hater of ugly black evil Indians. I think you need to visit Pakistan more often and see the diversity within your own country. You may even realize that not all Pakistanis are "White" and some might even look like ugly Indians.
---

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I think you completely misunderstood me. I'm not blaming Europeans for being intolerant to "Muslim immigrants" . I'm just highlighting how badly developing countries of Asia and Africa are depicted by their media as grave violators of human rights and their point argument is always like how every "Human being" irrespective of his/her religion or race or nationality is equal and should be treated so ( just like the western society).



And Yeah .. As there are "No Immigrants" in our country apart than Illegal BD immigrants and persecuted Minorities from countries like Islamic Pakistan and BD , so our situation cannot be compared to that of Europe. In India it's just Indians Vs Indians. On another note Pakistan is represented by Western media as 100 times worser than India.
It seems you moved to Iran or are you still in U.K Mr. Self proclaimed hater of ugly black evil Indians. I think you need to visit Pakistan more often and see the diversity within your own country. You many even realize that not all Pakistanis are "White" and some might even look like ugly Indians.

Have you ever been to USA? A country is made of all sorts. And enjoy the fun time with BD immigrants. I am sure you can reflect on the 1971 "tight embrace of brotherhood" you guys had.

And I visit every year. Pump some money into the local economy and sponsor certain political party.

I also agree Pakistan has terrible image abroad compared to India primarily because of terrorism issues which of course features in the media whereas nobody is bothered about the humongous poverty and dirt in India. It remains outside of the newsflash but I do my little best to "expose" like this below of the real India.

And my gem of a thread > Man as Beast - India